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Old 03-01-2004, 09:55 AM   #26
Wildane
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Wildane, every person has their own set of core beliefs that they will never question. Holding that against someone is petty.
Oh, but I guess it's perfectly ok to call someone else's core beliefs "superstitious bullshit"? I'm not holding anything against Ares, I'm just calling a duck a duck. If I am being close-minded, then he most definitely is. Hello double standards!
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:57 AM   #27
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Oh, and because I know you'll say something about me dodging a question ....
Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Is Kiebler therefore "closed minded", about belief and faith?
Of that I cannot judge since that statement contains no personal opinion on faith.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:05 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Wildane
I'm just calling a duck a duck. If I am being close-minded, then he most definitely is. Hello double standards!
The double-standard would be found with those who think it admirable to take a "leap of faith" and then criticize those who don't follow them over the cliff to the valley floor.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:33 AM   #29
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Default hmm

To be open minded is not one of the christians strong points, lets not kid ourselves here..the native americans had a different way of looking at the world than the white christians who came to north america..how "open minded" do you think the christians were to those who thought differently?...how many native americans you see living in the lands that were once thiers?..

the bible is the word of god and is not up for debate..right?

the second commandment says not to put any other gods before him...right?

to consider any other religion would be to make those ideas at the least ideologicaly tangible..if not real enough to ponder...right?

if another religion were real it would make the bible at least debatable, making god debatable...hmmmm

so for christianity to work, and for the word of god to be infalable, those that follow that religion MUST be closed minded to anything that would put into question that singularity that is thier god and his word.

or they could just say they are open minded to seem better than everyone else, even though they have thier faith cemented in thier heads.

Tet.
open to all ideas, even though i think they are all crap.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:35 AM   #30
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The ultimate double standard is those who wish to belittle and ridicule another man's faith openly, but whine and cry when Christians call their lack of morality in to question.

You are going to ridicule Christians..fine, we are used to it..but don't expect us to be silent while you do it.

I think I will work on an inspirational movie for you anti-religous extremists on the left. It can headline right next to The Passion...I will call yours, "When Tards Attack."

And before you say anything, yes I am a Christian..I just haven't learned the virtue of humility yet..and probably won't as long as liberalism continues to fart forth its anti-religious rhetoric.

/buying one ticket to heaven and one to hell..will let God figure it out later..
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:39 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Rheaton, reading your quoting of scripture is the equivalent to watching Jimmy Swagart preach a sermon after getting busted for soliciting a prostitute.
What'evah.. But talk in regards to the scripture. My point is that you cannot rationalize away 'faith' with logic.

Look at it like this.. you have faith everyday. You have faith that you will get to work safely.. you do not rely on statistics to convience you its 'safe' to drive to work. You have faith that you will have a job tomorrow and that your needs will be met. If you didnt you would go insane with worry.

What is reassurance without faith? Nothing. Each and everyone of us live by some degree of faith daily.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:04 AM   #32
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I'm not convinced that we all live with some degree of faith, in the sense that 'faith' is used with regard to religious belief.

Each day when I go to work, I believe that the trip will most likely be safe and uneventful, not because of faith, but rather knowing that each time I drive there is an element of risk and I simply accept that risk. I work for a corporation. I maintain an expectation of my employment based on the understanding I have with my employer. however the situation is ultimately "at will" which means that they or I can sever the relationship at any time for any reason. I can expect to maintain my position based on the factors in the equation that I have control over, but that does not negate the risk factor associated with employment in corporate America.

Certainly some will live their lives based on faith, others will not.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:07 AM   #33
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Rheaton, what of the 80% of Catholic Priests implicated in child molestation cases, as pointed out in this thread? Did these Priests have sufficient faith to rationalize away their immoral behaviors against children, and then stand in a pulpit and preach, offer communion, and take confessions?

The establishment of religion is a putrid animal responsible for some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:19 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Rheaton, what of the 80% of Catholic Priests implicated in child molestation cases, as pointed out in this thread?
Why not 100%? If they are apart of the establishment and the rules thereof, and protected the rules and enforced them, then arnt they all guilty? Doesnt sound as bad when we consider then the larger percentage of that 80% are guilty of 'cover up'.. or guild by association? Aye, makes a much better case when we can say "80% of Catholic Priests are child molesters!"

But that is totally off the subject of faith..

Did these Priests have sufficient faith to rationalize away their immoral behaviors against children, and then stand in a pulpit and preach, offer communion, and take confessions?
Temptation to do evil is not invinsible. We have faith that if we resist, temptation will flee from us. .. however, we must resist first... and several of these priests did not. I would have to say it didnt have much to do with their faith, but more to do with being weak to the evil seduction of unclean spirits.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:21 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
I would have to say it didnt have much to do with their faith, but more to do with being weak to the evil seduction of unclean spirits.
I see. Faith is off the hook and "The Devil made me do it!" wins the day.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:48 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
We have faith that if we resist, temptation will flee from us. .. however, we must resist first... and several of these priests did not.
How can we be certain what happened? Some of them certainly offered no "resistance to temptation" at the beginning. What about the others? Did they simply not resist enough? Was their faith not strong enough to cause temptation to flee?

Perhaps can we get our answers from science or logical sources... suppose these men were sick and they were self aware of their problem. (Dahmer knew he had a problem before things ever got out of hand) Thus they entered the Clergy, figuring that the lifestyle would prevent them from acting out their dark desires. Unfortunately it didn't, but rather enabled them to perform their sick and perverted acts upon innocent young children. Doesn't really seem that faith has much to do with it, except that they can feel absolved by confessing and asking for forgiveness time and time again.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:54 AM   #37
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I see. Faith is off the hook and "The Devil made me do it!" wins the day
Comm'on, Lurikeen.. I expect I higher level of mental maturity then that from you.

Lets put it in plainer terms then..

Lets say you smoke (give into unclean spirits).. but you know (have faith) that you can quit 'if you really wanted to'. In order to quit, you know you must resist the urge (temptation) to smoke. Scripture tells us that if we resist evil, evil will flee from us. The more you resist smoking, the more the nicotine level in your body drops and thus makes it easier to resist the cigarette.

The same applies to the 'unclean spirits' that tempt us to perverted sexual acts. Without going into detail, and Lord knows I DO NOT want to debate homosexuality, but as an example: is the urge or desire of a man to ram another in the gloots a 'natural, healthy human desire' or is it the influence of something other? Thats what most Christians say is the case.. that the person is giving into perverted, unnatural desires and temptations. And a lot of religious people feel there is little distinction between that which drives a man to desire another man from that which drives a priest to want to molest little boys. This is also what many 'religious right' believe is the cause of so much liberal acceptance to sexual deviance... that many do not know the cause or are arguing the wrong causes.

We know what is natural and unnatural.. at least we think we do. We would like to think we can tell the difference, right? How do you tell the difference?
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:56 AM   #38
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Was their faith not strong enough to cause temptation to flee?
No, faith in their ability to resist wasnt the issue. It was their inability to resist.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:06 PM   #39
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I'm sorry, Rheaton, but your posts are really falling into Lurikeen's "The devil made me do it" statement.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Comm'on, Lurikeen.. I expect I higher level of mental maturity then that from you.
I've grown to expect such idiotic statements from you. I suppose we're even.

Originally Posted by Rheaton
Lets say you smoke (give into unclean spirits).. but you know (have faith) that you can quit 'if you really wanted to'. In order to quit, you know you must resist the urge (temptation) to smoke. Scripture tells us that if we resist evil, evil will flee from us.
Why are you changing the subject matter? I was writing about 80% of the Catholic priesthood implicated in sexual crimes against children. I wasn't concerned with smoking or homosexuality. So back on track....

A priest is in a position of authority and trust. Children should not only feel safe in their presence, but ought to be safe!

Furthermore, a priest should have an exemplary faith. Why is it then that they are staring into the eyes of defenseless children and sexually abusing them? Can't they rustle up enough faith to stop themselves?

In fact, I am willing to wager that such crimes against children aren't confined to the Catholic Priesthood. I am postive that many professed christians act out sexual fantasies they have with children. Shouldn't their faith in God prevent such horrifying sins?
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:08 PM   #41
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I'm sorry, Rheaton, but your posts are really falling into Lurikeen's "The devil made me do it" statement.
Its more like 'The devil influenced me to do it, and I did' .. moreso then he made me do it, and therefor I am guiltless.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:17 PM   #42
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In fact, I am willing to wager that such crimes against children aren't confined to the Catholic Priesthood. I am postive that many professed christians act out sexual fantasies they have with children. Shouldn't their faith in God prevent such horrifying sins?
Am I noid or is that a subtle carryover from the swimsuit thread? If so, ill slap yo momma, boy!

The cigarette example was... oh forget it.

Faith does not equal the resistance of ever evil temptation. You can have faith that if you DO resist temptation, the temptation will flee from you. At the same time, you can have just as much faith that if you dont resist, it will continue to overcome you.

GL guys.. ima finished here.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:22 PM   #43
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Shouldn't their faith in God prevent such horrifying sins?
If you were a Christian you would be able to answer your own question. The second greatest gift God gave man, besides salvation through Christ, was free will. Man is free to make whatever choices he wishes for his/her life..leaving us with the ability to do very very well, IE strong family, moral, church going people, or very very poorly, IE child molester, murderer..liberal ..etc.

The entire reason for this is based on love. Man was allowed to have free will so that he could freely choose, or refuse to love God on his own merits alone. If you were looking for someone to love you, would you want someone to love you because they were forced to, or because they chose to...
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:36 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Trith
The second greatest gift God gave man, besides salvation through Christ, was free will. Man is free to make whatever choices he wishes for his/her life..leaving us with the ability to do very very well, IE strong family, moral, church going people, or very very poorly, IE child molester, murderer..liberal ..etc.
If what you are claiming about free will is in fact true, then why have faith at all? The idea of faith is to carry us through the "valley of the shadow of death (evil)". Right?

Also, if I can choose to do evil, then I can certainly choose to do good and live a moral life. So who needs a god, religion, or faith at that point, because it is my choice that makes me good and nothing else. In fact, experience will show me the way when it comes to making choices, so again, who needs faith?

If we have free will, then we choose our own destiny and having faith in a god will not make a single wit of difference.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:45 PM   #45
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Because the path to do good is by far the hardest of the two. It's like a weightloss program Lurikeen. You have two choices, one is to go out, exercise, eat right, and stay focused, and the other is to sit on the couch, eat whatever crap you want, and pray a little pill actually sheds pounds while you sleep. Most people, although they have the choice will be too chicken shit to try the only thing that works, and will opt for the easy, feel-good, solution that isn't doing a damn thing for them except making them worse off than they were before.

That's where the church comes in, to remind people that yes, you do have a choice, but would you really want to chose door number 2 knowing where it leads? There are plenty of people in this world (sometimes I think sadly a huge majority) that lack any semblance of willpower or common sense at all, and if it wasn't for the church keeping them on a path to door number 1 they would self destruct in record time. You assume that if everyone had a choice they would always choose the right thing, and that's not human nature. While God will not intervene if unless we ask him to (through prayer), it is the job of those who do understand to try to prevent as much shamless loss as possible. Remember Genesis, when Cain asked the critical question "Am I my brother's keeper" and God basically said "Yes you are."
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:54 PM   #46
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Also, if I can choose to do evil, then I can certainly choose to do good and live a moral life. So who needs a god, religion, or faith at that point, because it is my choice that makes me good and nothing else.
I know I said I was finished here.. but .. uh.. I cannot resist the temptation to reply

Lurik, if you believe it or not, you are influenced by good and evil spirits to do good and to do bad. Claiming to have no association does not exempt you from whats going on around you. Why we 'need' religion (not religion as much as God) is to keep us doing good and to give us guidence and understanding between right and wrong. Just knowing what is the 'right thing to do' will not prevent people from doing the wrong thing. This is why we are all sinners and have sinned..and why we must be saved and forgiven... and why we must ask for forgiveness.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trith
You have two choices, one is to go out, exercise, eat right, and stay focused, and the other is to sit on the couch, eat whatever crap you want, and pray a little pill actually sheds pounds while you sleep. Most people, although they have the choice will be too chicken shit to try the only thing that works, and will opt for the easy, feel-good, solution that isn't doing a damn thing for them except making them worse off than they were before.
The point is that if there is such a thing as free will, then the reason why I recieve praise or condemnation is because of my choices; not my faith. If there is free will, faith is subordinate to it.

In fact, one will wonder just how usefull faith is when it comes to making choices. Faith seems to be something like an Appendix, we will make good choices with or without it.


Originally Posted by Trith
That's where the church comes in, to remind people that yes, you do have a choice, but would you really want to chose door number 2 knowing where it leads?
I don't think you realize just how dead on your analogy is. I would say that preachers (priests) are the equivalent to game show hosts, but I digress.

If you are choosing what's behind a door based upon a guess, and win the prize, you can only take credit for guessing. How is that freely choosing one's own destiny which is something that's praiseworthy?

There's a large difference between being lucky enough to win what was behind door number two, from being in a position to choose out of knowledge what is behind door number two.

Choosing on grounds that aren't rational is just pure guesswork. There is no real choice involved and certainly such shoddy choosing is not praiseworthy.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Lurik, if you believe it or not, you are influenced by good and evil spirits to do good and to do bad.
I don't believe in "good spirits" or "evil spirits". Just like I don't believe that there is a "thunder god", "rain god" or "god of the mountains".

I believe that my choices are my own and I take responsibility for them. I don't need something "outside" to blame my choices on.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:18 PM   #49
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And just who are you responsible to for your choices?
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:22 PM   #50
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Hmmmm. I don't see how faith or God is a requirement to live a good life. I think there can be some value to the sense of community, shared values and spirituality that goes along with being part of a "church", but by no means is it a requirement for a good life. Seems like the reward at the end.. heaven is just the carrot being dangled off the end of a large stick, which is what you get if you don't "freely choose" the carrot that is offered.
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