Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2004, 02:49 PM   #76
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Martigan
He paid the debt, and all you have to do is accept that gift. If you don't accept the gift of forgiven sins and eternal life, it is not given to you.

Someone could pay your house off, but you have the free will to reject that.
The analogy fails. There is no sense in talking about a debt paid by God when God is the one holding the note. It would make sense if we mere humans could retire the debt on our own (which the bible makes clear that we couldn't). It looks like God is a poor loan officer.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2004, 03:30 PM   #77
Misty
Do Not Disturb
 
Misty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,066
And did you like Mel's film, but?
__________________
Originally Posted by Drysdale
"Fair enough. I don't agree with anyone all the time."
Originally Posted by Davek
"*blink* *blink* *blink*
*bliiiink* *bliiiink* *bliiiink*
*blink* *blink* *blink*
[fixt]

Mistyglen 68 Half Elf StormWarden (retired)
ex-Mystic Blue, ex-Sundered Heart, ex-Heart of Fenris
Redback's stuff
Redback 72 WoodElf Ranger (Lucid Devotion)
Misty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 12:49 AM   #78
Caoilfhionn
Erotic, exotic & a little psychotic
 
Caoilfhionn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sweet home......
Posts: 686
Send a message via ICQ to Caoilfhionn Send a message via MSN to Caoilfhionn
When you die, and you are face-to-face with Christ. You have no argument when He asks why you rejected Him. You've been provided the opportunity many times. Don't be close-minded...you owe it to your eternal sould to look into this
My soul is fine, Martigan, look to yours. (That sounded stupid typing it, but it's exactly the respect non-christians typically get.)

So let me get this straight. God, the God most Christians profess to believe in came down and gave a scripture. Later, he decided to tear that scripture apart, and make a new scripture, but this time it was real. The old one said it was the only and the last. The new one says the same.

Why would you bother to believe in a god so fallible?

Who's to tell you this rewrite is the right one? I mean, things have changed radically, why don't we trash this version too, and start all over?

There are radical differences between the two texts, major changes, yet most Christians tell me they believe in both books. How do you justify that when believing in the second negates the first? Yet, I read (alleged) christians quote from the first all the time. Sometimes they even quote scripture that's later changed in the New Testament, they just don't know the bible well enough to realize it.

I've actually read both scriptures. Jesus never says that believing in him is what "saves" you. He repeatedly states that you must follow the laws. Paul is who stated that believing in Jesus was all that was required, and that the laws now only applied to the unrighteous and disorderly. In fact, Paul can't seem to decide what he means half the time.

I'd also suggest James 2. Maybe I can't read, but it seems clear to me that James states that you cannot have faith without the deeds to back up your faith. Therefore believing alone does no good, you must also walk the walk. No wonder so many convicted become born again. What an easy way out.
Caoilfhionn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:11 AM   #79
Ulujain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: La La Land
Posts: 1,930
" And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture."

The Holy Qu'ran 2:113
__________________
S.I.G.N.A.T.U.R.E.
Ulujain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:42 AM   #80
Misty
Do Not Disturb
 
Misty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,066
LoL

One up'd by the 3rd corner.
__________________
Originally Posted by Drysdale
"Fair enough. I don't agree with anyone all the time."
Originally Posted by Davek
"*blink* *blink* *blink*
*bliiiink* *bliiiink* *bliiiink*
*blink* *blink* *blink*
[fixt]

Mistyglen 68 Half Elf StormWarden (retired)
ex-Mystic Blue, ex-Sundered Heart, ex-Heart of Fenris
Redback's stuff
Redback 72 WoodElf Ranger (Lucid Devotion)
Misty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 07:10 AM   #81
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Caoilfhioon
Who's to tell you this rewrite is the right one? I mean, things have changed radically, why don't we trash this version too, and start all over?
God did, it is called "The Book of Mormon".
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 07:13 AM   #82
Caoilfhionn
Erotic, exotic & a little psychotic
 
Caoilfhionn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sweet home......
Posts: 686
Send a message via ICQ to Caoilfhionn Send a message via MSN to Caoilfhionn
God did, it is called "The Book of Mormon".
I swear if they show up at the door today because you invoked them, I'm going to hunt you down, Luri!
Caoilfhionn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 07:33 AM   #83
Thugok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Brookfield, Missouri
Posts: 105
So let me get this straight. God, the God most Christians profess to believe in came down and gave a scripture. Later, he decided to tear that scripture apart, and make a new scripture, but this time it was real. The old one said it was the only and the last. The new one says the same.
I'd like to know where you get your information. For one, the first scripture that you would be referring to would be the Old Testament, I assume, but I don't know where you heard that it was torn up, or discarded in any way. Two, God didn't write the New Testament, the Disciples of Christ did. True, God may have told them at times what to write, but that doesn't mean he wrote it.

Most Christians live by both the Old and New Testaments, as they each have meaning and contain the way to salvation in them.

The other way I can interpret this, is that you say that "The old one said it was the only and the last." means that you are referring to the New Testament and perhaps the Book of Mormon? In this case, I believe the passage you may be referring to is:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shal add unto these th ings, God shall add unto him the plages that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and fromt the things which are written in this book.

Revelations 22: 18,19
In this case, I should like to inform you that only the Mormons, RLDS, and The Church of Christ believe in the Book of Mormon. The Catholics, Presbeterians, Baptists, Methodists, etc. do not condone this book. That is not to say that they condemn anyone who reads it, but they do not use it for their own study and worship.

I've gone on for far too long, so I'll go ahead and stop now. Think on what I said Caoilfhionn.
__________________
Worlaan Coldfist
Prophet of Justice
Proud Member of The Elder Blades
(retired)

Look at my frosty underoos!
Thugok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 07:37 AM   #84
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Caoilfhionn
Therefore believing alone does no good, you must also walk the walk.
I don't see where Martigan implies that all you need to do is believe and you'll get a free ride to Heaven. For me it goes without saying that you should walk the walk.
Originally Posted by Lurikeen
There is no sense in talking about a debt paid by God when God is the one holding the note.
You are the one that got yourself into debt, not Him. He gave man free will long ago, you can accept him or reject him. Even though it is not His responsibility to pay that debt, He has provided a way for it to be cleared. But, don't think for a second that you have to do nothing on your part. YOU got yourself into this mess, YOU have to help yourself out of it.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 07:51 AM   #85
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
Originally Posted by Thugok
I must ask you this, Hormadrune:

If you do not believe in Christ, the what do YOU believe will happen to you when you die (that is, do you believe man has a spirit (not given to him by God), or do you believe that the body and mind are as one and cease to exist when one dies)?

This question has nothing to do with religion, I am just curious as to what you think happens after you die.
Honestly, I don't know. But I'm more content admitting that than I am pretending to truly believe in the myths I grew up with (raised Catholic, though due to my father's work as a religious reporter for a major newspaper, I was exposed and educated on many religions, Christian and non-Christian).

If forced to answer the "Do you believe in God?" question, I say I do. But it's hardly the conviction with which some here profess the absolute certainty of not only there being a God but that the Christian mythology is all true.

When I die, I hope there's a God- something "after." The idea of truly ceasing to be is a frightening thing, borne partly out of a natural fear of the void and a more self-serving narcicism ("The world goes on without me? How dare it!").

I'm a person who needs pretty solid proof before I'll devote my life to something. The fact that some guys 2000 years ago said God thinks X Y and Z and you need to act accordingly, etc... is not exactly the level of proof a person like me can take very seriously. Lack of faith? Most certainly, but let's be honest- if Jesus came back in 2004 proclaiming to be the son of God we'd lock his ass up. Unless of course he was walking on water and shooting fire out of his fingertips, in which case our local police forces would blow him apart.
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | Ăs÷p | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | Ă÷l´
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 08:12 AM   #86
Usna
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 226
If Jesus came back in 2004 with tricks like that he could set him up as the new David Blaine.

Come to think of it; David Blaine, David Copperfield, both do shit like walking on water and stuff, and both share the same first name. Jesus was of the house of David.............Coincidence?
Usna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 08:12 AM   #87
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Wildane
You are the one that got yourself into debt, not Him. He gave man free will long ago, you can accept him or reject him.
Yeah, the point was lost on you, Wildane.

If God is our creator and sustainer, then he created us knowing full well that "Adam and Eve" would sin and that all future generations would be "born into sin" because of their actions. So, according to the Bible, I didn't get myself into debt. I was born into a debt due to no choice of mine and will be punished by the one holding the note on the debt, the one who created the debt to begin with.

His so-called "paying for the debt" is meaningless, since he was in a position to have never created the debt to begin with. Yes, so now comes to play your little make believe story of how there couldn't be any free will at all unless God gave the first humans choice.

Well, have you ever asked yourself why the choice had to be between eternal damnation or heavenly bliss? It appears that the first humans, according to the Bible Adam and Eve, made several choices prior to partaking of the dreaded fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". For example, they seemed to be able to freely choose other foods to consume and to freely walk in the garden with God. So, it looks like they had free will prior to eating the forbidden fruit.

The biblical story of the origination of the debt and its retirement aren't even really that good as far as mythology goes. If you want some good reading then try the "Epic of Gilgamesh". As far as moral theory goes, the Bible sucks. It doesn't explain morals at all.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 10:40 AM   #88
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Unless of course he was walking on water and shooting fire out of his fingertips, in which case our local police forces would blow him apart.
Which would never happen. Jesus did not perform miracles to impress or convince..only to help.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:34 PM   #89
Thugok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Brookfield, Missouri
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by Lurikeen
So, according to the Bible, I didn't get myself into debt. I was born into a debt due to no choice of mine and will be punished by the one holding the note on the debt
Actually, you're wrong, fortunately for you. I can't quote the exact place it says, but it is the firm belief of most Christian religions that you cannot be held accountable for your sins until age 12 or so. This is because children are born perfect and unable to know the difference between right and wrong, AND to know the full consequences of their actions, till the approximate said age.

Once you hit the age where you are responsible for your actions, it is up to YOU to decide what to do with the free will that God gave you.
__________________
Worlaan Coldfist
Prophet of Justice
Proud Member of The Elder Blades
(retired)

Look at my frosty underoos!
Thugok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:48 PM   #90
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Thugok, you didn't catch the point. The 12 year old doesn't have a choice. Once the magic number (you claim) is reached they inherit sin (it is called "original sin").
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:51 PM   #91
Cerulean
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 216
Send a message via ICQ to Cerulean
Regarding the movie. It was pretty good. It was an event-based movie rather than a plot- or character-based movie. Another recent event-based movie was Black Hawk Down. An event-based movie intends to dramatically portray a given scenario without regard to the setup, the individual characters or the eventual outcome. It simply shows an interpretation of an event (fittingly).

As to the tangential debate:

The Bible I read had a God that played with a loaded deck. He created a flawed mankind then condemned them for those same flaws, then, later, said you can overcome those flaws if you follow his rules.

If Adam & Eve had free will but no knowledge of good & evil then why would picking the fruit off the tree be reason for condemnation? If God didn't want them to disobey then he should've instilled a Knowledge of Good and Evil orginally. To be born without that knowledge implies that you don't know it is a bad thing to disobey god... he did give you free will after all. What good is free will if you can't exercise it ... and if you do you're condemned. Sounds like God framed Adam & Eve.

As to death & heaven: Rubbish. To assume we have a soul, as poetic and fanciful as that might be, is an idea borne only from faith. The soul is a wonderful metaphor - nothing more.

When I die, not only do I expect to decay back into nothingness I hope for it. For if there is a God and he has played dice with the lives of so many and by his lack of intervention cause needless pain & confusion then he is a cruel God that knows nothing of the Love his followers carry on about.

In truth though I am an agnostic. I cannot profess with any certainty the existence or non-existence of a god. I simply do not believe in the Biblical representation of God.
Cerulean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:58 PM   #92
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
He created a flawed mankind then condemned them for those same flaws
You read the wrong Bible then. God created man, and has NEVER condemned mankind. Some within mankind have condemned themselves, but not our creator. This is part of the beauty of the choice provided through free will.

If God didn't want them to disobey then he should've instilled a Knowledge of Good and Evil orginally
God instilled only a knowledge of good. Eden was perfection until Satan instilled the knowledge of evil. It was at this point that God had to make a choice to either obliterate his creation, or grant him a sense of free will to make a choice between the two paths he had been given. At this point we became a strange amalgamation of both good and evil, and some of us strive in life to eliminate as much of the evil as we can, while others embrace it as much as they can.

As to death & heaven: Rubbish. To assume we have a soul, as poetic and fanciful as that might be, is an idea borne only from faith. The soul is a wonderful metaphor - nothing more.
In truth though I am an agnostic. I cannot profess with any certainty the existence or non-existence of a god. I simply do not believe in the Biblical representation of God.
Can't have it both ways. If you do not believe in a soul, then you have stated you are atheistic. If you are going to say you are unsure of a "God" then you must say you are unsure of a "soul".

Last edited by Trith; 03-02-2004 at 02:04 PM.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:58 PM   #93
kanibaal
korpse
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 796
ok so nobody here has an actual opinion about the movie? we are just here to try to prove eachother wrong instead of saying what was good ro bad about the flick?

I thought the cinematography and acting was great. I know the acting was very plain... only a few characters were required to show more than one emotion but I was impressed. the casting couldnt have been any better. the set and costume designs were top notch. there was some cheese here and there, like the chick cleaning the blood off jesus' face to leave a outline and some detail of his face but overall it was very gritty and intense.

if you havent seen it I suggest seeing it. if it changes your life then cool, but at least go see it to see a well made movie.
kanibaal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:13 PM   #94
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Trith you don't know your Old Testament well. Here, let this atheist help you.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [3] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [4] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [6] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [7] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Genesis 2:5-18 NIV
Take notice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God planted it. Take note that prior to eating of the fruit of the tree that God states, "you are free to eat from any tree...".

According to your bible it is God who created the fruit containing the knowledge of good and evil, planted it in the Garden of Eden, and gave Adam and Eve free will prior to their eating the fruit. I think Cerulean put it well, "God stacked the deck" against Adam and Eve.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:18 PM   #95
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Yes, Lurikeen and man was only vested with knowledge of good at that point. God did not make man eat from the tree, and without the temptation of Satan man would not have eaten from the tree. Free will again. We were given a choice and we fucked it up. That made our lives quite a bit harder.

If anything God was only trying to shelter us from the knowledge of evil, because even He cannot completely stamp out evil. Lucifer, His own creation, became the epitomy of evil. And due to the perfect nature of Lucifer himself, while God does hold some dominion over him, God cannot destroy him, so like mankind in the world we live in today, we have to deal with evil, but cannot hope to eradicate it.

Perhaps God knew from his first creation trials, the angels, that mankind would ultimately go sour.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:29 PM   #96
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Trith
Yes, Lurikeen and man was only vested with knowledge of good at that point.
Translation: "It's Turtles all the way down!"

See how convenient it is to be able to make up the story as you go to justify your faith?

Your bible makes it clear that God provided the knowledge of both Good and Evil in the fruit of a tree. Taken metaphorically, as it should be taken (Unless you want to claim that knowledge is contained in fruit?), the Genesis story points at God as being the creator of evil (carnal) knowledge. Not Lucifer. The same story points at God as being responsible for giving people free will and putting them in a position of temptation (aka "stacking the deck"). No where in Genesis (or elsewhere in the bible) is it even suggested that people only had knowledge of good prior to the "fall".
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:34 PM   #97
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Trith
Perhaps God knew from his first creation trials, the angels, that mankind would ultimately go sour.
ROFLMFAO!!

Yes, the perfect God had "creation trials"!!

Kinda like God fucking up and having to destroy his creation with a flood, huh?
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:38 PM   #98
Jaiieq
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 60
God doesn't exist
Jaiieq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:44 PM   #99
AresProphet
Priest of Hiroshima
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,932
Send a message via MSN to AresProphet
Look, I may agree with you, but you really add nothing here. Stating the truth just isn't enough for people like Trith.
__________________
One of the wonders of the world is going down
It's going down I know
It's one of the blunders of the world that no-one cares
No-one cares enough


Attachment 181
AresProphet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 02:51 PM   #100
Vireil
Disturbing the force
 
Vireil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 2,711
I think the real truth is that we'll all find out eventually. You can believe whatever you like in the meantime.
__________________
Vireil
Coercer
<Recovering>
Vireil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:11 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.