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Old 03-01-2004, 05:22 AM   #51
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because the asshats won't be there. Sign me up!
Not one of us deserves heaven based on our own merit. Our citizenship in Heaven is based on what Jesus did for us, not how well man stacks up with his/her deeds. I'm thankful that God saved this (points to hyself) asshat.
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Old 03-01-2004, 05:50 AM   #52
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What Jesus did for us; rewarding men who abandon their families to follow him. Cursing an out of season fig tree for not bearing fruit. Promulgating the bullshit (and destructive) belief that mental illnesses were caused by devils.

His own disciples thought he was a loony (Mark 3:21).
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Old 03-01-2004, 08:15 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Trith
Besides Heaven is supposed to be a perfect place..and I can see why now..because the asshats won't be there. Sign me up!
Hell is looking better by the day.
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:30 AM   #54
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Default Passion tickets bear 'mark of the beast'

The number 666, which many Christians recognize as the "mark of the beast," is appearing on movie tickets for Gibson's film at a Georgia theater, drawing complaints from some moviegoers.

The machine that prints tickets assigned the number 666 as a prefix on all the tickets for the film, said Gary Smith, owner of the Movies at Berry Square in northwest Georgia. The 666 begins a series of numbers that are listed below the name of the movie, the date, time and price.

"It's from our computer and it's absolutely a coincidence," Smith said. "It has nothing to do with the film company or any vendor. It's completely in our computer."

In the Bible, the book of Revelation says 666 is the "number of the beast," usually interpreted as Satan or the Antichrist.

Several patrons have made comments about the numbers, and one person who was uncomfortable having 666 on her ticket asked for a pass to be substituted for a ticket.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/03/....ap/index.html
What a great example of superstitious beliefs at their best! Returning a ticket because the prefix of a ticket number is 666!
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:58 AM   #55
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Does this mean that Jesus is the devil?

(and damn you Lurikeen for beating me to the punch on this news item! )
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:13 AM   #56
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Mel Gibson is traditionally considered to be Roman Catholic but actually follows a much older (newer?) style of Catholism that rejects most everything after Vatican II including Vatican II.

I have read that he has his own church on his ranch. I believe that he considers himself to be Catholic in way.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:18 AM   #57
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No actually he is a Catholic. Not any special brand of Catholic. His only major preference is that the mass should be delivered in Latin. He will only attend services delivered in Latin, and not in the English translation..otherwise he's a run of the mill Catholic.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:35 AM   #58
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Default More then you ever wanted to know about Mel Gibson and his religon..

These are not my own words.

"But Is Mel Gibson Catholic?

Actor's Activism Points to Schism, Author Says

Everybody likes Mel Gibson. He's an award-winning actor, he's box-office
gold and he seems like a nice guy. But because of his fame and The
Passion, his forthcoming movie about Christ, a lot of his fans would
like to be clear on where he stands with respect to the Catholic Church,
a Dallas-based author says.

Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., is an associate of the Canon Law Society of
America and a best-selling writer whose book Rosary: Mysteries,
Meditations, and the Telling of the Beads includes one of the most
graphic accounts of the Crucifixion ever published. He'll definitely see
Gibson's film about the sufferings of Christ on the Cross. But Gibson's
campaign to build a church in Malibu, California, raises some serious
issues about the actor's relationship with the Catholic Church.

"You can't just build your own church," Johnson says. Parishes are
geographical entities, set up by bishops in conformance with the
Church's laws and subject to their authority. "There are no free-lance
churches in the Catholic Church. You live in a parish, and you go to its
church." Every place in California is already part of a parish, which
has its own church.

Gibson's parish, then, would be the aptly named Our Lady of Malibu on
Winter Canyon Road, Johnson says, looking through a Los Angeles Catholic
directory. But, according to The New York Times Magazine, the actor's
privately funded Church of the Holy Family in Malibu is not affiliated
with any diocese. So, according to Church law, it's schismatic, not a
Catholic church at all.

The Church's Code of Canon Law defines schism--separation from the
Church--as "the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of
communion with the members of the Church subject to him." Gibson's
father, Houston, Texas resident Hutton Gibson, is an outspoken critic of
the Catholic Church and a vocal adherent of the "sedevacantist"
movement, so called from the Latin phrase meaning "empty seat"--their
claim being that every pope since 1960 has been spurious.

While Gibson himself is said to disagree with his father on many counts,
the actor has been quoted often as waxing nostalgic for the Mass said in
Latin and the doctrines as they were for almost 2000 years. But, as
Johnson explains in his booklet What About the Latin Mass?, the Latin
Mass that traditionalists long for is nothing like 2000 years old--the
early Mass was often in Greek, and Gibson probably remembers only the
Latin Mass that wasn't finalized until 1962. "So if he was born in
1956," Johnson says, "his Latin Mass is really younger than he is
himself." That Latin version is still used in the Church by special
permission, and it's actively encouraged by authentic Catholic
organizations like the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, headquartered
in Elmhurst, Pennsylvania.

The difference is that these groups nurture the Latin Mass in full unity
with the Catholic Church. "Fringe groups who reject Vatican II stand
away from the Church and go off on their own," he says. "They're largely
reacting to the sloppy or even destructive way in which Vatican II's
decrees were put into effect here in the United States."

Vatican II--officially the Second Vatican Council--was convened by Pope
John XXIII in 1962 and strove to clarify the Church's activities to
better serve the modern world, mandating simplification of the liturgy
and the use of the local vernacular languages instead of Latin
everywhere.

"Of course, you have to use the liturgy as a way to look to the
substance of the Faith," Johnson says. "You can't just stop at
appearances." Vatican II mandated no changes in Church doctrine
whatever--"the Church's teachings are the teachings of Christ," he says,
"and therefore no human agency can add to them or take any away, and the
Church never has," although many Catholics still seem to be confused
about that point.

Johnson believes that the confusion started when American bishops took
Vatican II as an excuse to sweep away any part of the Church that they
didn't like personally--"not just the Latin of the liturgy but, as we've
seen, even the most basic doctrines of human decency." Since 1993, more
than 80 percent of the Catholic bishops in the United States have been
directly implicated in court cases of priestly pedophilia or in using
their positions to shield such activity over the past 40 years or more,
according to a study compiled by reporters Brooks Egerton and Reese
Dunklin of the Dallas Morning News last year.

That corruption of the clergy makes it hard to find authentic teaching
or authentic liturgy in the United States today, Johnson says, but it
doesn't mean that people can just run out and start up their own church
instead. The new English Mass is perfectly legitimate and a lot closer
to the simplicity of early-Christian practice--when Latin itself was the
vernacular, the everyday language of the people. And with a little
effort, he says, "you can get a Latin Mass celebrated regularly at your
proper parish, and know that you're doing so in full communion with the
Church that really is almost 2000 years old."

So where does that leave Gibson? "Well, I hope he's Catholic," Johnson
says. "We'd love to have him." END "


He is considered to be Traditionalist Catholic...which the Roman Catholic church does not recognize.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:38 AM   #59
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He is considered to be Traditionalist Catholic...which the Roman Catholic church does not recognize.
Right..again..he's Catholic..what's the point here?
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:42 AM   #60
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Read the article before you post next time.

The big difference would be that his own private chuch that he calls catholic is not affliated with the Roman Catholic Church. That means his church is not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. By in communion I mean that if you are a praticing Roman Catholic you can go into that church and recieve communion and it counts as having full filled your Sunday obligation to go to church.

There are a few churchs that are considered to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, Mel Gibson's church isn't one of them.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:53 AM   #61
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Not one of us deserves heaven based on our own merit. Our citizenship in Heaven is based on what Jesus did for us, not how well man stacks up with his/her deeds. I'm thankful that God saved this (points to hyself) asshat.
The Old Testament clearly states that no man can die for another's sin.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)
The entire chapter Ezekial 18 is about the idea that no one can die for another's sin, that the responsibility lies solely with the soul committing the sin.

In Exodus chapter 32:30-35, Moses asks to die to atone for the sins of the people, and was told it doesn't work like that, each man dies for his own sin.

I don't have to look to another to atone for my sin, it is on my shoulders alone. Ezekial 18 even shows that the wicked can change their ways and be forgiven.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (Ezekial 18:26-27)
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:04 AM   #62
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The Old Testament also clearly states "an eye for an eye", which is later changed to display a more tolerant attitude. Change for the better, if you ask me.

Jesus was more than just a man. The whole purpose of God becoming human was so that he could die. I mean, regular men couldn't walk on water or turn water into wine.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:14 AM   #63
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Wildane, let me introduce you to the Amazing Randi.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:16 AM   #64
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Default .

.

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Old 03-01-2004, 12:00 PM   #65
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The Old Testament clearly states that no man can die for another's sin.
Cao, you are correct, but like Wildane stated, Jesus was not a normal man. He was referred to as the "Lamb of God"...in fact He is God.

Back in the old testament days, it was required for families to provide an innocent living lamb (spotless...without blemish) for slaughter. This sacrifice was a way for sins to be covered. Now, it wasn't the act of killing the lamb that covered the sins of the family, but the obedience.

Jesus came to be the final sacrifice. He came to purchase your soul, and mine. There is no longer a need to continually sacrifice lambs. Jesus' sacrifice was enough for the entire world...past and present. He took your punishment for all the sins you have ever committed, or will ever commit. Like I said earlier, it's up to you to either accept or reject that.

When you die, and you are face-to-face with Christ. You have no argument when He asks why you rejected Him. You've been provided the opportunity many times. Don't be close-minded...you owe it to your eternal sould to look into this.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:35 PM   #66
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To look into what? The fairy tale that generations of men (and sometimes women) have twisted various ways to control the world and other people?

It's a faith issue, nothing more. If my educated cynicism fucks me over in the long run, you can send me a postcard from heaven saying "Haha, told you so," but really- the fearmongering done in the name of Christianity and other religions is enough to turn me away (OMGZ, ur eternal soul iz @ steak!!)

I don't know why we keep having this discussion. Just read Chiteng's sig's last line: it's all right there.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Martigan
There is no longer a need to continually sacrifice lambs. Jesus' sacrifice was enough for the entire world...past and present. He took your punishment for all the sins you have ever committed, or will ever commit. Like I said earlier, it's up to you to either accept or reject that.
That's not true. Isn't it a sin to reject Christ? If he already paid the debt for that sin, then nobody should be burning in hell. So, the sacrafice of Jesus didn't pay the debt of all sins.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:53 PM   #68
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It is not a sin to reject Christ, but you will not be absolved of any of the millions of other sins you racked up during your life, leading you to a rather dismall ending.

It is a sin to blaspheme..but this is different from simply rejecting Christ because you are of a different religion.

Knowingly rejecting Christ will lead to damnation not because you rejected him, but because you probably didn't live a perfect life and have no way to achieve forgiveness.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:08 PM   #69
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On what authority do you have this information Trith? If the best God could do to get the message of Christ to me, a relatively normal young white man in the 21st century, was to have a bunch of socially backward hypocrites be the bearers of His Good News....well then he can hardly fault me for my skepticism. I'm fairly sure his first words to me will be "Hey man...sorry bout all that..."
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Trith
It is not a sin to reject Christ, but you will not be absolved of any of the millions of other sins you racked up during your life, leading you to a rather dismall ending.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

No Trith. Your book says that those who reject God are given an reprobate (evil) mind by God.

Edit: Here is one more inspirational text...

"God will send a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they may be condemned who did not believe the truth…" 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:31 PM   #71
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I must ask you this, Hormadrune:

If you do not believe in Christ, the what do YOU believe will happen to you when you die (that is, do you believe man has a spirit (not given to him by God), or do you believe that the body and mind are as one and cease to exist when one dies)?

This question has nothing to do with religion, I am just curious as to what you think happens after you die.
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Old 03-01-2004, 02:10 PM   #72
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$118 million so far... I bet all the studios who rejected this flick are boggled. expect to see alot more jesus movies made.

it is useless to argue religion. if someone is interllectually persuaded to believe a certain way, then all it takes is something better sounding to change their mind.
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Old 03-01-2004, 02:30 PM   #73
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That's not true. Isn't it a sin to reject Christ? If he already paid the debt for that sin, then nobody should be burning in hell. So, the sacrafice of Jesus didn't pay the debt of all sins.
He paid the debt, and all you have to do is accept that gift. If you don't accept the gift of forgiven sins and eternal life, it is not given to you.

Someone could pay your house off, but you have the free will to reject that.

I'm fairly sure his first words to me will be "Hey man...sorry bout all that..."
Actually you will be held accountable for your actions. You have been presented with the gospel many times, and you have continually rejected it. Yes, I have met up with a few hypocrites, but most Christians I know aren't. Even so, if we use our fellow man as our standard, we'll be let down every time...no matter who he/she is.

Close-mindedness and pride will keep many from Heaven. When I say pride, I mean people declaring that if there was a heaven, they would be considered good enough to get in...and if not...who's right is it to tell them that they were not good enough. Folks have to let go of their pride and accept the fact that they are really a bunch of no-good sinners...we all are, and unworthy of any showing of mercy, especially from the creator of everything.

It's not us who set the standards. Who are we to tell God how He should "set the rules."

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Old 03-01-2004, 02:40 PM   #74
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I'm not so sure...
Originally Posted by Martigan
Someone could pay your house off, but you have the free will to reject that
If someone gives the bank the money and pays off your house you are absolved of the debt, regardless of your acknowledgement, thanks or "acceptance" thereof.


Unconditional love should be... unconditional.
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Old 03-01-2004, 02:49 PM   #75
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Unconditional love should be... unconditional.
His love is unconditional. He loves every one of us. That is why Jesus was sacrificed...read John 3:16... for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son... you've read that.

Why would God do such a thing? It says to save us. Save us from what?

He loves us so much, he decided to do something to show us the way to eternal life.

Yes, He loves every one of you. That love does not guarantee your ticket to Heaven. It's still your choice.
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