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Old 09-13-2003, 05:12 PM   #26
Brigiid
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And I was speaking moreso to the crowd (not referring specifically to these boards, but to society in general) that would like to place the blame on video game producers, television broadcasters, celebrities, etc. I didn't say who I "blame" in this instance because I wasn't there. I don't know the kids, I don't know the parents, and I don't know the situation and history that brought them all to that point.

My comment was, basically, that parents should start early on raising their kids and teaching them to filter the information they're getting from the media, games, etc.

At the actual point that the trigger was pulled, yes, those teenagers made the choice, themselves, to do what they did. The ultimate responsibility lies with them. Why they did what they did could be blamed on any number of things.
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Old 09-13-2003, 06:37 PM   #27
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The fact that most people would have known better presents a strong case for absolving the game manufacturer from guild. There are just two small problems that make them at least a SMALL amount to blame.

First of all violence is not violence. There are different types. In the case of this game the law breakers are actually the "heroes." I think that is irresponsible.

Secondly the children have played games for years, watched television, hung out with good kids and bad kids, and yet they directly say they were imitating GTA.

I hope I was also clear in the fact that I think parents can, and do, influence children as they grow. I don't think that just because children will make their own decisions that parents shouldn't even try.

It is just when people start saying things across the board like "If your children do this you should go to jail." I think that is just insane. There are very few cases in which parents could be criminally charged for the actiosn of their children.

I do think that depending on how the guns were obtained the victims may have a very strong civil case. If, for instance, the gun cabinet shows no signs of physical break. I don't know if I would side with the victims, but I think that would make things a little bit different.
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Old 09-13-2003, 06:50 PM   #28
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Of course they said they were imitating GTA... Wouldn't you come up with a scapegoat too if you just got caught fucking *shooting* people?

"The Devil made me do it" in any form is a crock of shit. Those kids decided to shoot at people, the fact that a game gave them an idea of a way to carry it out doesn't mean shit.
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:26 PM   #29
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So what if they were imitating GTA? There are countless types of violence that we see and hear about in society all the time that they could have imitated.

The problem is not that they had something to imitate. It's that they chose to imitate this act.

This type of behavior (shooting cars on a highway, and every other type of violence) is self-creating, meaning you don't need to see it and imitate it to perpetuate it. I say this because all the violence we see in the world had to have initally come from people thinking it up. Anyone is capable of doing that because most of the time violence does make sense in some fashion. If you want money and don't want to work for it, you go to a bank and steal it. If you want to see what happens when you shoot a car going 60mph on a highway, you go there and shoot at them to see what happens.

Why is it we just can't hold people accountable for their actions, but have to blame it on someone else all the time? Or better yet, realize that our society as a whole is to blame in part, and trying to hold a game company solely accountable is stupid.
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:49 PM   #30
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In no way was I saying the game should be held solely responsible. I just have to wonder what role it played in it when the boys state they are imitating it.

Pull out all the data yo want on how 20 million people have played that game but IF the boys are really doing it as a direct result of playing the game the question is whether that should just be ignored.

I personally think it is just another sign that games of these types should not be sold to minors. If they don't see it they can't imitate it, or blame it. I would hate to be the one to have to explain to the victims parents "sorry, but this wouldn't have happened if their parents watched them 24/7."
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Old 09-13-2003, 11:01 PM   #31
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They probably did do it as a direct result of playing the game. And I'm not saying that point should be ignored, it's actually very important, but I think people interpret it completely wrong.

It shows the underlying problem is those kids not being able to distinguish the difference between playing a game and reality. And not realizing the consequences of those actions before they did them.

If it wasn't GTA they imitated, it would have been something else. Or they would have made up something just as stupid to do without any outside help. The root of the problem is what needs attacking, not what they decided to imitate.
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Old 09-14-2003, 04:45 PM   #32
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The bottom line is that those kids are fucking idiots.

Their lives should be ended too, because it's obvious that they are worthless sacks of shit who do nothing but plague our society with their idiocy and lack of compassion for other human life.

I don't care how old they are, a fucking moron of that caliber doesn't even deserve to live. Imagine what they will be like as an adult?
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Old 09-14-2003, 05:58 PM   #33
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"The industry needs to cough up money so victims and their families can be compensated for their pain,"
Take Two has money. That's probably their biggest crime right now. Granted, these people did lose a loved one to this senseless act but chances are they are also listening to some greedy lawyers who's sending them after the big pay-off as well.

Should the parents be held responsible? Probably to some degree. Although I think the big thing is to hold the kids responsible. Of course... kids that young don't have loads of money... so time to go after the game company since they they managed to create a top selling game for a few years.

As for making it illegal to sell M rated games to minors. It won't really work. When I worked at Gamestop, we never sold M rated games to minors. It was our store policy. An 8 year old comes up to buy Grand Theft Auto, we turn them away. End of story right? Nope. They go and get their parents. We inform the parent of the content in the game. Sometimes, they step in and put the game back. More often than not, the parent still buys the game for the kids. If they later find out that they don't like the game, they'll bring it back and claim they were not informed of it. Even though I personally told them all the aspects of how it landed an M rating.

Now, there are obviously stores that don't care what age a kid is and sell the game no matter what, but I'm saying that it's too easy to get around it even if we try to stop it. "Little Jimmygot straight A's on his report card so it's ok" Uh... ok ma'am, if you say so.

Unfortunately, our society is too quick to point the finger elsewhere instead of looking within. If they win a lawsuit like this, then it brings us much closer to censorship; where our artistic visions could only be expressed within set parameters. That's no good.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:18 AM   #34
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Completely on the same page as Tuan.

Thought this was a particularly fitting typo though.

Tuan said:
any descent moral framework
believe he meant decent


Miscreant crime has always looked for scapegoats. Pre-video games & pre-television there was still plenty of miscreant crime (a good bit more per capita, actually) and there were still scapegoats.

All those involved have a certain responsibility (parents, kids & gamemakers) - but the lion's share belongs on the shoulders of the kids. They are the ones that chose to do the crime - no one forced them. They knew what they were doing was wrong (or, in the least, unacceptable) yet they didn't care or didn't feel the gravity of the situation. Ignorance, in either case, is not an excuse.
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:47 AM   #35
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I disagree, I really don't think a parent is to blame if his/her child commits murder like this. I think the child has a mental problem, the same problem that any other murderer has. They should be tried as adults, and I would even wonder if the video game should be used as evidence of premeditation. It's a simulation of the crime they commited, and they practiced on it before hand, then used that knowledge to commit a crime. To me, thta would be the same as blaming any other murderer's parents... the kids are just not right. It's sad, but some people are just hardwired wrong.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:46 AM   #36
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I think it's simple. It's not the parents fault, the game, or the game companies fault.

The fault lies in the kids and whoever they got that gun from.

Kids of those ages DO know better. Don't tell me they don't, I was at those ages not too long ago. Hell! I knew better than that when I was 6 and watching Manga anime. Don't try to chop people's heads off and no shooting people. They die!

Could the parents have done a better job raising those kids, yes. There's no doubt there. Especially as Saraquael said, parents are usually the ones that buy the influences. But never the less, the kids should know the difference between reality and media. If they can't tell the difference, well then they need to be educated before they can be let out into society.

Otherwise, if they did know the difference then it becomes the Dahlmer issue. He knew exactly what he was doing and he couldn't help himself. He knew it was wrong but he couldn't stop or prevent it.

As with before, I will always say there is/was something wrong with the kids. They need help to learn the tools to function in society. If they can't grasp those tools or hold on to them, then they should not be allowed out in society.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:14 PM   #37
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If you locked a child in a room and had them watch nothing but violence and they had no other influence of right and wrong the odds are they would have little regard for human life.

Now, take the same children and have them grow up in a home where they may or may not be told time after time that life is precious. They go to school and watch television and for the most part they are told that life is precious. But then again... they do see people killed over and over on TV and in the movies. Then there is this game. If they played it all the time and saw the destruction of human life over and over again...

Are you going to tell me that the game played no part in their actions? Human conditioning is very real. Soldiers are trained to kill. They are trained to act not think. With enough practice they hope is that when the time comes they can do it without thinking about it because it needs to be done.

Yes the boys are responsible. They are murderers and should be treated as such. To say, however, that the game played no part... is irresponsible.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:30 PM   #38
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I never said the game played no part. Conditioning is one argument that has always been there for pyscologists.

It's the environment vs. biology argument.

But your point of soldiers. Soliders are trained to kill, they are trained well (most of em), and they will do so without question. However, soldiers even know when to draw the line (most of them). Soldiers, swat, police, etc. know when to stop killing. They know when war is war and when not to kill people. Many/most would like to avoid killing people as well. Then there are those that do not. They do things they shouldn't and they can't stop. They are then taken out of the military, hung, discharged, or what have you, depending on the crime or severity.

The same thing goes for kids. Keep in mind, 14 and 16 are not young enough that they cannot tell the difference. And you can't say that it started before that, because the game in question was not out when they were 1 - 4 and just learning everything for the first time. If the abusive home argument comes in, then the game is irrelevent. It could have been anything from a punch in the school yard to an episode of Justice League. Parents need to realize when enough is enough and take their kids away from the situations. Kids should learn to recognize when they lose grasp of reality. Kids need to be educated from young ages to ask question about what's on TV or in books if they've never seen it before. They need to be self aware, especially at age 16! If the kid can drive and make logical decisions then he can know not to off people for no reason.

But in this situation, they got "bored" and decided to off some people. Cmon, no relation to a soldier at all. No sane soldier would decide he is bored in time of peace and go off people at will.

The game did play a part, but it wasn't the instigator. Most kids won't go off people after playing one video game and being raised in a good home. For something like this, it stems deeper.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:41 PM   #39
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I also live very close to where this happened. It was all over the news. The first was when it actually happened, which to my demented mind was funny enough. People bored enough to snipe truckers...mmmmmmh.

Then the dumbass kids started this GTA bullshit. Now, THAT was good for a roll in the floor, piss myself laugh.

Only in Tennessee could people be this in-fucking-comprehensivly stupid and bored. It's not like this place needs anymore bad press people, come on.

My opinion on the matter: the kids are irretrievably ignorant and happened upon a scapegoat that, most likely, most people will swallow.

BTW, Iannyen, you said you live close to there. Where abouts?
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:03 PM   #40
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But in this situation, they got "bored" and decided to off some people. Cmon, no relation to a soldier at all. No sane soldier would decide he is bored in time of peace and go off people at will.
My point exactly. No sane over 18 soldier would. Why don't we have 14 year old soldiers in our Army? Why do most states say that you can not drink, smoke, get married, vote, or work full time at age 14?

I know these kids should be smart enough to know wrong from right. I know that I would have never considered killing anyone when I was there age. Then again I didn't play those games or enjoy senseless violence.

I am not trying to legalize or explain away murder. I do think that it would be benefitial and intelligent to place restrictions on the sale of material considered adult.

People always argue "that is censorship" and think it should be a parents choice. That would be great. What a wonderful concept. Parents who actually pay attention. Are these the same parents that sign sick notes for school that are false? The same parents who teach their children its okay to break the small laws? Yeah. Lets let them decide what is best for their children to read, watch, and play.

Children can't vote, drink, drive, smoke, or defend their country but because of some completely abused "freedom of speech" concern they can decide to watch people cut up, or a woman be raped. But its okay, because children are smart enough to filter out the violence and to decide to do the right thing, or are they? If they are they certainly aren't learning it from their parents in most cases.

Parents should condition their children. Parents should censor what they do and see. But they don't do it enough. What is the big deal about making things less available to them until they are 18? Afraid your child might not get to see as many women raped or beat up? They might not get to see a man sliced up, or a child beat up?

(If you are a good parent reading this then this isn't about you. I don't know you so I can't comment good or bad on your parenting. I can, however, say there are a lot of bad parents and people shouldn't have to suffer for their neglect).
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:09 PM   #41
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Kids 16 years old are no different than 18, 19, or even some 26 year olds I know.

Parents can't censor what their kids see completely. That would require a total rework of the charter of rights.

Parenting only goes so far. There is an age when a child begins to think for themselves and realises things. Some earlier than others and some never come to this realization.

I have also come to another thought. These kids acted in pairs. A simple theory I found. A person is smart, people are stupid.

These kids together probably thought it'd be cool to go shoot people. Individually they wouldn't have the balls to do it. If individually they did, then they have a mental defect somewhere. If they were 8 or younger, I'd say they are still learning. But 14 and 16, I was already drinking, smoking and what not. So I knew what I was doing, I knew if it was wrong and I knew how far I could take it.

These kids probably as I said, thought it would be cool. Then they killed someone, got arrested, cried to mommy and daddy who said to blame the game.

What I think is bullshit about the mimic part is. Why would they go kill first? If anything, games like GTA and movies would make me want to go steal. After all, it's cool to jack a car or rob a bank. That's what seems like bullshit to me.
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Old 09-17-2003, 06:50 AM   #42
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LOL... after reading CNJ's post about how the children were the "victims" (aka garbage analogy about being held hostage in a room and forced to play video games...NOTHING at ALL like what really happened... but love those ridiculous analogies). I was just waiting until he started crying censorship. Leave my rights alone, I don't care how you want to turn this into something it's not. My rights are just fine, thanks.

We just have some murderers using a game as a scapegoat, WOW look at the liberals buying thier tickets to the circus!
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Old 09-17-2003, 08:06 AM   #43
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Old 09-17-2003, 08:15 AM   #44
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Actually Everclear he was just trying to make a more general point and was not specifically talking about the kids that did this crime. I think his example is fairly valid in itself, just taking the extreme cases of conditioning.

I don't think it has a whole lot of relevance to this scenario though, because the kids were not raised in that kind of isolation. Someone could argue just about anything with an extreme isolation conditioning example.

Anyone who goes to school and lives an even semi-normal life is introduced to an extreme amount of different choices and how to live. These kids ultimatly chose something really stupid to do. I still say the underlying problem is how the parents raised them. If we want to work toward a solution to this kind of crap, a good start is to require people to take parenting classes.
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Old 09-17-2003, 06:49 PM   #45
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"I am not trying to legalize or explain away murder. I do think that it would be benefitial and intelligent to place restrictions on the sale of material considered adult."

There are restrictions thanks in large part to the PMRC, but that will do nothing to stop someone from grabbing mom or dads credit card, waiting for them to go to bed and then ordering the materials online, or even having a freind go buy it for them.

"People always argue "that is censorship" and think it should be a parents choice. That would be great. What a wonderful concept. Parents who actually pay attention. Are these the same parents that sign sick notes for school that are false? The same parents who teach their children its okay to break the small laws? Yeah. Lets let them decide what is best for their children to read, watch, and play."

Well who would you decide is qualifed to teach their children then?

"Children can't vote, drink, drive, smoke, or defend their country but because of some completely abused "freedom of speech" concern they can decide to watch people cut up, or a woman be raped. But its okay, because children are smart enough to filter out the violence and to decide to do the right thing, or are they? If they are they certainly aren't learning it from their parents in most cases."

A drivers licence can be issused at the age of 16, and w/ parental consent you can join the armed forces at the age of 17. Last time I checked someone wasnt considered an adult until the age of 18, so how is it that children cant do those things? As for watching someone cut up or a woman raped you can find that on the internet w/ a little free time and a search engine. They dont even have to do it from home. You can go to an internet cafe or use the computers at school, and if anyone asked them what they were doing just say they are doing research for a report.

"Parents should condition their children. Parents should censor what they do and see. But they don't do it enough. What is the big deal about making things less available to them until they are 18? Afraid your child might not get to see as many women raped or beat up? They might not get to see a man sliced up, or a child beat up?"

Condition their children how? Not let them watch anything containing any volient or bad message or by sitting down w/ them after veiwing something and talking about it w/ them to explain the difference between right and wrong in what they saw? Even when a parent wants to do that they cant be there every time thier child may be exposed to something like that unless they never let them leave the house, and strictly moniter everything they do. Age has nothing to do w/ it as I said you can find all kinds of information and things for sale on the internet. Yes they do ask if you are over a certain age if you want to enter certian sites or purchase items, but their is no way to check if the person on the other side is actually telling the truth easily.

Those children made a choice in doing what they did, and should be held fully responcible for what they did. If you really want to get indepth on who to blame are they going to sue the store that the game was bought at? What about the clerk that sold the game?
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Old 09-19-2003, 10:48 AM   #46
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Hey, me too.
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Old 09-26-2003, 11:32 AM   #47
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Old 09-26-2003, 03:42 PM   #48
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Default /gasp

I am suprised no one here has mentioned the mentally unstable person awhile back that quit his job and then killed him self over EQ?

Remember the mother blamed Sony for that one!

Going alittle off topic here:

How about the people filing suit against McDonald's because of their lack of self control over eating fast food (hmm overeating or OVER EATING you pick).

And the other one that involves McDonald's it the lady who sued them because their coffee was (shudders at the thought) hot!


I believe that we like to blame others for our problems, I mean heaven forbid WE do something wrong! Seriously is it McDonald's fault people like to eat ALOT of Big Macs and NOT get any exercise? or that some lady doesn't KNOW that coffee is HOT?

As for the parent's fault the children MAY not have listened when told to do (or NOT do) something, to a point I believe so but more so I am thinking there is a problem when children cannot be disciplined without the THREAT of abuse.

My ex had an adorable little 4 year old who turned into a little demon child by 6 and you want to know why? Because they were afraid to discipline the child fear of being acused of Abusing! There is a difference, the lady in that mall parking lot (ABUSE!) spanking your child because they are out of line (discipline)

just my opinion!
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