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Old 02-16-2005, 09:12 AM   #51
Gauche
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Originally Posted by Wildane
So, you don't think this "fuck up" would have been overturned in the last few DECADES if it was indeed a "fuck up?" I guess you should add the Supreme Court to your "list"

Despite how it may appear to conservatives, the court isn't a rubber stamp for liberal agendas. Frankly, a lot of the time they try to avoid contentious issues or limit the scope of their rulings. They can turn down appeals all they like.

I didn't feel like finding the vaguely referenced Supreme Court ruling the article claims applies to this situation. Did anyone else look it up?
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Of the various jewish jokes I've heard, not a single one of them had to do with religion. Maybe you live in a box.
But why are there these sorts of jokes in the first place? Because of religious bias. If you disagree then explain the origin of Jewish jokes or attitudes like what the girl in question expressed. You're ignoring the core issue and enabling the behavior by trivializing it.

Wildane,

The fact that children are released from school and possibly transported at taxpayer expense (the real issue) to Christian bible classes is beyond offensive and does indeed smack of state-sponsored religion. Like I said, if you want your kid to get a religious education, do it on your own time and your own dollar.

School-day scheduling should *not* be planned around Bible studies, which presumably it is- I don't see that could possibly hold up to 1st amendment scrutiny (and in the case that you mention Wildane, Zorach v. Clauson, it doesn't address that aspect, merely the permissibility of releasing kids).

To sum up:
Using state funds/resources for these classes: Unconstitutional
Conducting classes on school property during the school day: Unconstitutional
Releasing kids to take classes: Apparently ok.
Planning curriculum around these classes: uncertain- unconstitutional I'd imagine
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Gauche
I didn't feel like finding the vaguely referenced Supreme Court ruling the article claims applies to this situation. Did anyone else look it up?
Zorach v. Clauson

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...l=343&page=306
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Of the various jewish jokes I've heard, not a single one of them had to do with religion. Maybe you live in a box.

That rather boggles the mind. Why make a Jewish joke if it isn't referring to some stereotype associated with the Jewish religion or the perceived "race" and culture? Can you list any examples here?
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
But why are there these sorts of jokes in the first place? Because of religious bias. If you disagree then explain the origin of Jewish jokes or attitudes like what the girl in question expressed. You're ignoring the core issue and enabling the behavior by trivializing it.
I'm not enabling or trivializing anything. I'm just saying I don't necessarily think all bias against jews stems from religious indoctrination.


Originally Posted by Gauche
Why make a Jewish joke if it isn't referring to some stereotype associated with the Jewish religion or the perceived "race" and culture?
Race and culture I won't argue. Again, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that don't know the difference between race and religion in this particular case. In this current day and age, if someone were to say jews were tightwads, would that be religious bias or cultural/racial bias?

Don't consider 'tightwad' to be an insult? OK, I can buy that. But when a 6 year old girl overhears dad say something like, "Yeah well, he's a jew, what can I say?" she picks up not only on what he says, but his inflection and demeanor. She's left with the impression that jews are bad, because of the way dad said it.

You can argue it all day long, but the sad fact is that you don't know enough about the situation to say what was or wasn't "the most likely" reason behind what she said. You're making an assumption based upon your own negative feelings about religion.

Doesn't that sorta make you a prejudiced monster, too?
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:37 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
I'm not enabling or trivializing anything. I'm just saying I don't necessarily think all bias against jews stems from religious indoctrination.
But you haven't offered any alternative reasoning that still doesn't boil down to an ingrained religious bias.


Race and culture I won't argue. Again, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that don't know the difference between race and religion in this particular case. In this current day and age, if someone were to say jews were tightwads, would that be religious bias or cultural/racial bias?

Don't consider 'tightwad' to be an insult? OK, I can buy that. But when a 6 year old girl overhears dad say something like, "Yeah well, he's a jew, what can I say?" she picks up not only on what he says, but his inflection and demeanor. She's left with the impression that jews are bad, because of the way dad said it.

You can argue it all day long, but the sad fact is that you don't know enough about the situation to say what was or wasn't "the most likely" reason behind what she said. You're making an assumption based upon your own negative feelings about religion.

Doesn't that sorta make you a prejudiced monster, too?
It's called drawing a conclusion Brigiid- when after all these posts you've failed to offer a reason for these sorts of comments that isn't ultimately motivated by religious bias I'd say it's a fairly valid conclusion to make. It has nothing to do with my negative feelings about religion. I mean, for fuck's sake we're defending Judaism from discrimination and you fall back on accusing people of anti-religious feelings? If I was so anti-religious why would I give a shit?
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
The fact that children are released from school and possibly transported at taxpayer expense (the real issue) to Christian bible classes is beyond offensive and does indeed smack of state-sponsored religion.
Well, I agree that the school shouldn't be bussing these kids to the church, but churches have their own buses. I know that, down here, some kids go to churches as a kind of day care 'til their parents get off work. In those cases, the churches handle the transportation...could be the case here, too.
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
I'm not enabling or trivializing anything. I'm just saying I don't necessarily think all bias against jews stems from religious indoctrination.


Race and culture I won't argue. Again, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that don't know the difference between race and religion in this particular case. In this current day and age, if someone were to say jews were tightwads, would that be religious bias or cultural/racial bias?

Don't consider 'tightwad' to be an insult? OK, I can buy that. But when a 6 year old girl overhears dad say something like, "Yeah well, he's a jew, what can I say?" she picks up not only on what he says, but his inflection and demeanor. She's left with the impression that jews are bad, because of the way dad said it.

You can argue it all day long, but the sad fact is that you don't know enough about the situation to say what was or wasn't "the most likely" reason behind what she said. You're making an assumption based upon your own negative feelings about religion.

Doesn't that sorta make you a prejudiced monster, too?

I wasn't claiming she picked it up from church. However, there's a very long history of pogroms against the Jews, of Christians blaming Jews for the death of Jesus, of any number of race and cultural biases that ultimately resulted from the religious differences. That's not prejudice against religion or even Christianity, that's simply reality of the way things are and were. I don't consider Christianity evil even if many evil things have been done because of it.

The history is pretty amusing, actually. Jews in many lands lost their rights to own land, were driven away, persecuted, and such. That's in large part responsible for the Jews developing the infamous moneylender persona as towns developed and trade overtook the agrarian society.
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Well, I agree that the school shouldn't be bussing these kids to the church, but churches have their own buses. I know that, down here, some kids go to churches as a kind of day care 'til their parents get off work. In those cases, the churches handle the transportation...could be the case here, too.
That's possible- and these communities are small enough that the facilities for the classes could be close enough to the schools not to require busing anyway I suppose.

Planning the schoolday around weekly bible classes is still unconstitutional IMO- if I was the lawyer on the case that'd be my next point of attack. If these kids were giving up their lunch hour or something I might feel differently, but this is classtime.
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Old 02-16-2005, 10:30 AM   #60
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My friend hates Jews and openly admits it. He's told me stories about his hatred, about how he's told some random Jews some pretty awful things. He's also told some pretty f'ed up jokes. I asked him why he hates them so much, and he describes his life in NYC and his experiences with them and cites that as the basis for his bias. Whatever the hell that means.
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Old 02-16-2005, 10:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
It's called drawing a conclusion Brigiid- when after all these posts you've failed to offer a reason for these sorts of comments that isn't ultimately motivated by religious bias I'd say it's a fairly valid conclusion to make.
Guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree then, because I'm not gonna lay out every last slur I've heard against every population known to man, so you can decide if they're largely religiously-based or not. I've offered that it's possible that its based on racial or cultural differences, but you don't accept those as valid reasons. It clearly must be religiously motivated, in your mind, so I'll leave you to that.

No big deal.
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Old 02-16-2005, 10:49 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree then, because I'm not gonna lay out every last slur I've heard against every population known to man, so you can decide if they're largely religiously-based or not. I've offered that it's possible that its based on racial or cultural differences, but you don't accept those as valid reasons. It clearly must be religiously motivated, in your mind, so I'll leave you to that.

No big deal.

Jews are pretty close to a unique case. They are primarily a religious group, that a large subsection of that group has developed a racial and cultural identity from. While there may be slurs against Jews based on stereotypes developed from the dominant "race" or culture associated with Jews, ultimately those slurs lead back to the Jewish religion, even if they don't inherently refer to specific religious beliefs of the Jewish people. However, this little girl's comment was not a reference to some minor cultural foible.

""I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said 'yes.' When I said, 'Jesus was a Jew,' one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,"' Ridell said."

How is that not a religious reference?
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Old 02-16-2005, 12:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Gauche
How is that not a religious reference?
Before the bigotry police get me, let me preface this by saying this is only an example.

Let's say 6 year old Suzy Q goes to church with her family. She really likes Sunday school, where they get to play with toys, listen to stories, sing songs, and make little pictures out of macaroni shells. She knows that her whole family dresses up and goes together, and that everybody she knows does the same thing. While she might not fully understand all of the nuances of religious belief, this is a generally happy experience for her. Happy = good, in the world of 6 year old girls, right?

Let's say Suzy's daddy doesn't like black people. He was raised that way, or maybe he got mugged by a black guy one day. He thinks they're dirty, or criminals, or whatever. Anytime he refers to a black person, he's got this *look* on his face like he just tasted something gross. He lets the N word slip every now and then. He makes jokes about them always eating fried chicken and watermelon. Everytime Suzy Q hears her dad mention someone black, he acts like it's a bad thing to be black, or that black people are bad in general.

Suzy goes to school and someone asks her if say, Jesse Jackson is a Christian. Christian relates to church, church is good, Christians are good, Jesse Jackson is good. Say, "Jesse Jackson is black." and see what her reaction is.

Is her reaction to the image of a black Jesse Jackson because he's black, or because he's Christian? Do you think it's more likely that someone in church told her that he was bad because he was black, or that she got the impression that black people are bad from her dad? Do you think Dad's beliefs about black people have anything to do with their religion?

Again, I've got nothing against black people. I'm just using it to make the illustration here. While religion is one reason for discrimination, it's not the only reason, or even necessarily the most probably reason. Speculating that a 6 year old girl got her impression from one source and not another, solely given the information contained in what, a 2 sentence blurb with no further information, is making quite an assumption.
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