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Old 06-12-2003, 07:13 PM   #26
Vespay
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Oops, also forgot to add this:

Yes I DO realize that some folks are actually capable of being that mid 50's level and can handle themselves in places like PoV and PoS, however, we don't live in a perfect world and a majority of the EQ players cannot do the above.

A cleric, for example, COULD be used at that level since they really only worry about CH'es, and buffs, but even a druid can do that or can ask for help from another higher level cleric.
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Old 06-12-2003, 11:34 PM   #27
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Default 58 is more than good enough for valor

at level 58 i played in Valor a couple of times. and didn't have a problem landing slow on most of the mobs on the dragon gate side of the river. and what few i did, malosini allowed me to land slow the second time around. so the whole, you have to be 60+ is a crock. certainly, being 60+ makes it easier. but don't kid yourself that those under 60 are useless.

the skill of the person behind the avatar makes a big difference.

Uruz Magnuson, shaman of Crimson Eternity

ps hey Hopp, if i send you a case of beer, will you come play in valor?
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Old 06-12-2003, 11:37 PM   #28
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Originally posted by angryboy
To say a character needs to be a certain level to be in PoV/PoS is stupid. To say you won't group with someone who isn't level 60+ is also stupid.

Talent at playing your class doesn't come with levels. I do agree that certain classes (tank or casters) need to be high enough level to be effective. Without the levels the casters will be resisted and the tank won't have the HP to tank. Other classes (bard, shaman or even monk) don't need to be a set level. Bard have their songs that effect the group no matter what level the mob you are fighting is. Same idea with the Shammies (unless they are slowing). Monks can still FD and pull I would assume. I am sure there are others but I don't want to type them all out and I am sure that you "older folks" know it anyway.
I very much disagree with pretty much all you said except that it is of course true that anyone at any level can be very good at playing their class. However, that ability is rendered irrelevant when the character is in an environment that is totally inappropriate for his level.

For example, I would not want to group with a 57 cleric in t2+ PoP zones. At that level they do not have even any ethereal heals. What happens when the level 58 Shaman you have slowing is continually resisted because he doesn't have malo(s) and the 57 cleric has to heal him with remedy and divine light? The day where all a cleric needed was CH is long gone.

This is not to say that the players should be denied the right to be in the zones (insert some crap about how everybody pays the same for the game, yadda yadda, barf), but that it is not unreasonable for players of the appropriate level to accept the lower levels in t2+ PoP zones.

Your statements imply that groups of <60 level players in t2+ PoP zones should be ok because each character can be effective in some way at least. Would you want to waste your time in a group where the pulls take 5 minutes for your monk to split because he is so low level he aggros 4 mobs each time? Then when he gets back to the group he does nothing but FD? What about the sub 60 casters that will be casting against almost entirely red con mobs with very few resistance debuffs? As for tanking, I doubt that the max hitpoints of <60 tanks would even be the issue. Rather, the issue would be that the mobs would take a very long time to slow and that the tanks would be tanking red cons. 8k hitpoints wouldn't save the 58 warrior with little to no AA tanking a 64 PoP mob when his damage mitigation is so low that the mob hits for max every time and can't land a taunt.

I play a Shaman and the thought of one fighting reds in an experience group, not slowing, relying on his buffs to feign usefullness, is laughable. <60 enchanters have a hard enough time mezzing mobs in t1 zones
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Old 06-12-2003, 11:49 PM   #29
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I was 2 boxing my ench for root CC and slows on CoD rats at 55. /shrug
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Old 06-13-2003, 12:52 AM   #30
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<---Tanked effectively at 57 in CoD and PoS today en route to 58. Agro was no more an issue in T2 than it was in T1 and non-planar groups, and mitigation was no biggie- I don't think I worked my clerics too hard. This is with no defensive AAs yet at all.

I do however completely agree that a group of 55s would not fare well at all.

Back to an earlier sub-topic however, yesterday in PoV, I was in EW and got trained wherever we sat, by the castle or way out on the cliff edge. Seemingly the only safe spot was the hill opposite the castle :-/
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Old 06-13-2003, 05:43 AM   #31
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Unless they've changed something, you can't taunt a mob that's higher level than you are until you reach level 60. So I find it hard to believe that you could control aggro as well as a 60+ warrior in tier 2 zones. Then again, I'm not sure if they changed this along with other aggro changes and whatnot.

Also, you've got some good gear and I'm sure that you're a fine tank but comparatively you're lacking due to your level. With 3.8k hp unbuffed and lower mitigation and whatnot I'm sure your clerics had a much harder time than they'd had previous to the opening of the zones.

I'm not trying to offend you or anything, just pointing out a few things. Personally, I'd hit 60 then worry about PoV and PoS if I were you.

Also, I grouped with a 58 enchanter at DG once. We couldn't chain pull because we were working with c2, when we got adds we were pretty screwed cuz he couldn't mez anything and he had to debuff the hell out of the mob to land a slow so he'd pull aggro and, being as low as he was, he didn't have arcane rune and had low hp so he'd die quite frequently. Often leaving us with two unmezzed mobs, only one of which is slowed. So it's just not a good idea. I'm sure some can work with it but I'd wait for someone to become available before I'd grab a character below 60.

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Old 06-13-2003, 05:43 AM   #32
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To say a character needs to be a certain level to be in PoV/PoS is stupid. To say you won't group with someone who isn't level 60+ is also stupid.

Talent at playing your class doesn't come with levels. I do agree that certain classes (tank or casters) need to be high enough level to be effective. Without the levels the casters will be resisted and the tank won't have the HP to tank. Other classes (bard, shaman or even monk) don't need to be a set level. Bard have their songs that effect the group no matter what level the mob you are fighting is. Same idea with the Shammies (unless they are slowing). Monks can still FD and pull I would assume. I am sure there are others but I don't want to type them all out and I am sure that you "older folks" know it anyway.
Make up your mind. Is it the second paragraph or the first paragraph. You say one thing then negate most of what you say in the second paragraph.
Its obvious that you don't know much about these zones. Its obvious you don't play a 56 enchie and get resisted and killed on 4 straight mobs or casting C2 on your group. Its obvious that you don't play a tank and get hit with max damage on each hit. Its obvious that you aren't a healer and casting a symbol on each of your plagroup members. Its obvious that you don't play a rogue without good backstab damage. Its obvious that you don't play a caster with spells that stick easily to the mob. Its obvious that you dont play a shaman and get aggro heavily on every mob. You say this "Same idea with the Shammies (unless they are slowing)." Well gee- what else do you think the shammy does for a group here? I don't see many groups saying to themselves. "Hey look, theres a shammy, we need some damage so lets get him." They say- "Looking for a slower, shammy or enchie will do".
In my opinion the only players who can successfully play well under level 60 are druids who know how to heal well with their 57 heals and clerics who have a sufficient mana pool as long as they are grouped with a decent tank. Most other classes have problems from the lack of spell availability and from level problems. Its going to play itself out pretty fairly and those under these levels simply wont stay much longer in these zones. OS exp is improved. To those who aren't of level yet, take my advice- group there, its going to be a lot more useful to you than making trains every 20 minutes and you are only making things unplayable for those who have earned their levels and exp to play in valor and other zones.
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Old 06-13-2003, 06:00 AM   #33
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Talent at playing your class doesn't come with levels.
Thats not really true. I'm a much better chanter at level 65 than I was at level 1.
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Old 06-13-2003, 06:30 AM   #34
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Experience under (and even at) 60 is still very nice in tier 1 planes! I don't know why Sony made it 55+ for tier 2 ones (I don't know why they do a lot of things!).

Perhaps think of it this way, before you 55ish folks get up in arms: when one hits 46, one can go to the tier 1 and old school planes. Would you want to go to PoN for instance, with an entire group under 50? Would you want a 47th level MA in Fear? I'm not saying that it can't be done, but do you want to? I admit I've taken one or two 47th level folks with me to exp in tier 1 when I was 55ish... but those are people whose skills I know and trust beyond a doubt, and they were never the MA or anyone that would be getting hit TOO much, hehe.

Like the 46th and 47th level people going to tier 1 for exp, there ARE a very few special folks who could make it work at 56 or so in tier 2. The thing is, everyone seems to think that is them

I'm a much better cleric at 62 than I was at 1, lol, but I also know of folks who play their classes MUCH better than folks 10 or even 20+ leves higher than them. That sort of thing does go by person to person, to a point. That said, I'm still nervous if my MA in PoV, PoS, etc is 60 or under
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Old 06-13-2003, 08:50 AM   #35
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question for yah all
could a 58 monk with 3100 base hp, 1200 ac bace, and 100+ to all svs base handle pulls and the occasional hit in these zones?
i know plane of storms pretty much like the back of my hand from 2 boxing/agro kiting the froggies there, know PoV sorta well, just curious thx in advance =)

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Old 06-13-2003, 09:45 AM   #36
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Believe me, I don't expect to be fending off tells yet for Valor or Storms groups Qris I too would hesitate to have a sub-60 MA if I didn't know him or her. I went with a guild group mostly to get a feel for the planes that will be my xp home when I do get to a level where non-guild/non-friends will see me as a viable tank.

With regards to agro management, that was my understanding of taunt also (can't taunt yellow or higher mobs). It did seem however that I was able do so- though perhaps that was more luck with damage/proc agro hitting the same time as my pressing taunt, making it mere coincidence.

Again, I'm not arguing that mid to upper fifties tanks are as effective as 60+ tanks, simply that we can be viable in these planes moreso than many seem to think.

Coupla more dings and I suppose I'll not care so much
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Old 06-13-2003, 10:22 AM   #37
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I have worked hard to get my mage up where he was able to do the trials. I tried the trials in POJ 3 times but alas the groups werent to good so I was never able to complete it. Then I hear about them opening the planes up. Ok so I would at least get to see them. Yes, I have popped in and looked around. I dont wander to far away from the zone in or the zone out. I con everything I see to make sure it cannot see through invis. I ask for a group. So far I have gotten a group in POS once. It was a very nice group and I had a lot of fun. So I guess maybe I dont fit the norm. I dont think just because a mob is dark blue to me, I can beat it. Maybe I am a little more cautious than some.

My opinion on them opening the zones, well I am torn really. I am glad I can go up there, but I do get worried about the people up there. IE: the trains and so on. Then again by the same token, how else are they going to learn the zone? Lets think about the people that got flagged and stepped in the zone for the first time. Was there a large sign reading "This is where to camp, this is where to pull, this is how to pull." I personally was sitting in POT one day when one of the uber guilds were going into POS for the first time after they got flagged. They had bound themselves at the bank. I was sitting there talking to a friend of mine. About 10 minutes go by and they started to pop in front of me one by one. They were wiped in very short oder. They were lvl 59-64. Two groups. They were all flagged. So maybe level isnt a good judge of skill, and maybe flagging isnt a good judge of skill.

So I think the trials were a perhaps a bit much, but by the same token I feel there should be some sort of "checks and balances".

Also I look through here and I recognize some of the names. Some of the people are the same ones that, when in game, will tell people complaining of trains, "This is a game get over it." or "Trains are a part of it, get a rez and get on with it." and that was in zones with no gy for your corpse to pop in. Now, I do not accuse you all of this. I am in no way lumping you all together. I am simply saying some of the names of people I have seen post are.
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Old 06-13-2003, 06:15 PM   #38
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Okay to start, Jaidin I never said an all level 55 group could or should do tier 2 planes. You guys, who like doing the quotes, try reading them and not just copying.

It's obvious that you have difficulty reading.

I didn't contradict myself in the second paragraph; I expanded on my original statement. I will repeat that statement now.

To say a character needs to be a certain level to be in PoV/PoS is stupid. To say you won't group with someone who isn't level 60+ is also stupid.
See even I can use the quote things.


bumbleroot said

I for one will not invite players who are under 60 to fight in a zone that they are not capable of fighting in. If others would merely do the same, then those players will go back and fight in zones where they are capable of fighting in and not cause problems in the planes.
That's why I made my comments. I tried to explain a couple situations in which a player who is under level 60 would be able to contribute to a group. I see now that you would rather sit around and do nothing if you didn't have the "perfect" group.

You are correct, I do not play any of those classes that you described. I play a bard and I have been playing him for close to 4 years now. I will not say I am an expert in these zones. I do know how to play the game though. I also know my capabilities. I don't know you or know of your abilities in the game, but from your reluctance to do things that might be a little risky, it seems like you have been able to follow someone else's guides to get where you are now.

What I was trying to do was explain how some classes can be effective even when they don't fit the "perfect" role. Obviously you cannot have a level 55 main tank. I didn't imply you could. However, a level 55 rogue would be effective in a group in PoV. He wouldn't be the most effective but he would be. If he knew his class well he just might be a better choice than an Ebayed 63rd rogue.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that just cause you weren't/aren't good enough at you class to do/try it don't make that judgment for others.


Curmudgeon

Thats not really true. I'm a much better chanter at level 65 than I was at level 1.
You may be a better chanter now at 65 than you were at level 1, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the level you are does it? You as a person learned the game and you class. Let me take it one step further, Chanter noob_1 plays and gets to level 10, he is not very good and dies a lot. He goes to Ebay and buys a level 65 chanter (who is flagged). Is he a better chanter? See my point? Thanks.


If you are going to try and argue with me some more I ask you to please at least read my post and not just argue.

Thanks.
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Old 06-13-2003, 09:04 PM   #39
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I do agree that certain classes (tank or casters) need to be high enough level to be effective.
From what you're saying it doesn't matter if the noob with the ebayed 65 chanter is skilful or not. If he is 65 he'll be effective.

And who are you anyway? I don't know of any bards called Angry who have been around for 4 years.
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Old 06-13-2003, 10:13 PM   #40
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He is a bard named Angry, has been around forever, you just never met him.

Was a member of PC is how I know him.

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Old 06-14-2003, 05:38 AM   #41
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Wow, it amazes me that I can play for years and still not have met everyone who has been playing for the same amount of time.

Must be the time zone thing.
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Old 06-14-2003, 06:40 AM   #42
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Lets think about the people that got flagged and stepped in the zone for the first time. Was there a large sign reading "This is where to camp, this is where to pull, this is how to pull."
If you pass the trials and are not pulled through by an overwhelming group you have to employ certain strategies. As a caster you have to learn to stay close to the tank when you cast. As a slower you have to do the same. Either way you can not go and kite the mobs or else you will fail the trials. As a healer you have to learn to heal properly. You have to understand how to heal and not draw aggro from that heal. As crowd control you have to learn how to effectively control 3 extra mobs. As a tank you have to use f8 or other instant target key to do well. In the trials it is a test of your knowledge of the game and how well you work in a group situation. You have to be cognizant of aggro control, mana useage, quick targetting and assisting your main tank. These are all strategies that are employed in tier two zones and up. As well as ghetto mezzing. I read somewhere that someone was complaining because their puller pulled two mobs and immediately they evac'd. That shows the lack of some of these skills that are exhibited during the trials. Basically, if you don't know how to employ the proper uses of some of these skills, you aren't capable of playing well in PoV or PoS.
However, a level 55 rogue would be effective in a group in PoV. He wouldn't be the most effective but he would be. If he knew his class well he just might be a better choice than an Ebayed 63rd rogue.
I would probably disagree on this as well. A 63 rogue gets a new damage table. This is probably a couple damage tables beyond a 55 rogue. Since the rogue will be doing much higher damage the mobs will fall faster, thus sparing mana in the process.
I don't know you or know of your abilities in the game, but from your reluctance to do things that might be a little risky, it seems like you have been able to follow someone else's guides to get where you are now.
I am a 65 warrior. No power levelling ever. I have done the trials over 150 times passing many people in the process. I failed my first 49 times and passed on the 50th back in November. Pickup groups really were a problem then as many pickup groups formed to got into trials with insufficient mana pools or lack of knowledge in how to heal or control aggro, however most of the people that tried then quickly learned and made the adjustments needed to pass. Having tried the trials 49 times before passing was not unusual then for a lot of players. Especially those that were in pickup groups. I learned in the trials how to effectively target much faster. Many casters and slowers learned in the trials how to effectively control their aggro. Many casters started buying horses or lizards to help with their mana. Tanks worked to get their hit points up above 6000 if they were a warrior and a similar level if they were a pally or SK based upon the mana pool of their group.
After passing the trials I noticed a big difference in the quality of players in PoV/PoS. At this time there just were not many poor players. The players who passed had to possess some of the higher skills and knowledge of their players to play in these zones. Those in PoV/PoS were not running everytime they got aggro, they learned to bring the mobs to their tanks. They all knew how to ghetto mez mobs which surprised me because only those with good grouping knowledge knew this at this time.
About a month or two later, some guilds started passing through any players that were 50 and over through the trials. They used 4 or 5 level 65s to pass them through. People started noticing 56s and 57s in the zone. Yes they were in groups. Many of these players lacked both the skills and the levels to be effective at all in PoV/PoS. I remember a 59 warrior wanting to tank being kicked out of my friends group because he was a mana drain. I kicked out a 56 enchie because she died on 4 straight mobs and was not able to land a slow or any spells on them. There were also a lot of players over level 60 that were pulled through with the help of level 65s. A lot of these players were good players. There were also some that were not good. Since about January or February the quality of play in PoV/PoS has diminished since its earlier days. Way too many people got help getting through the trials and didn't have to pass it with all other unflagged players.
You also mentioned failure to take on risks. I don't think having someone incapable of playing in a zone is really a risk worth taking. As I showed above some classes simply can't perform their tasks at certain levels. The last thing you want happening is a cleric running out of mana on a two mob pull simply because someone can't do their job. Its a pain in the ass to be grouped with people who simply are going to make your group wipe everytime. I don't mind dieing, but I do mind dieing if its unnecessary, and a group in Valor or Storms wiping out is unnecessary. Lastly you seem to think that I am insulting players on this. I am not. There are plenty of level 55s that play their game well and know their characters. However, they simply are way too underlevelled to effectively perform in a group. When I speak of someone being incapable of performing, its because they are not capable of it no matter what they did it has nothing to do with skill, however there are cases that do have something to do with skill.
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Old 06-14-2003, 07:19 AM   #43
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hate to see what would happen with all the enraging mobs put back in o O
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:15 AM   #44
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Originally posted by bumbleroot

A 63 rogue gets a new damage table. This is probably a couple damage tables beyond a 55 rogue. Since the rogue will be doing much higher damage the mobs will fall faster, thus sparing mana in the process.

Woah, Big fella! You play a Warrior. You have no idea what it's like to play a rogue. When warriors level up, you guys get lots of hitpoints and good ways to keep them, Rogues get almost nothing. A PoV mob will gleefully part a rogue from her hitpoints reguardless of level unless that rogue knows her class. That 63 rogue with the "new" damage table is going to draw lots of aggro. Add in a lack of understanding about the HIDE skill being able to be used to drop that aggro, and you'll see how much MORE mana is wasted to keep that 63 rogue alive vs that 55 rogue who isn't hitting or being hit as much.
In a fight, a good high-level rogue is only slightly less busy than a good high-level bard. I'm hitting a ton of keys to keep myself alive and keep the aggro off me while doing hits that can add into the thousands. I do this with less than half the hitpoints of the MA and much less AC.
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:45 AM   #45
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Obviously some players simply dont care.
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Old 06-15-2003, 08:00 PM   #46
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Woah, Big fella! You play a Warrior. You have no idea what it's like to play a rogue. When warriors level up, you guys get lots of hitpoints and good ways to keep them, Rogues get almost nothing. A PoV mob will gleefully part a rogue from her hitpoints reguardless of level unless that rogue knows her class. That 63 rogue with the "new" damage table is going to draw lots of aggro. Add in a lack of understanding about the HIDE skill being able to be used to drop that aggro, and you'll see how much MORE mana is wasted to keep that 63 rogue alive vs that 55 rogue who isn't hitting or being hit as much.
I'm sorry. Evading is part of a rogue's life. Warriors use as many hot keys. That is why there are hot keys. Currently I have 8 hot keys set up of which two and sometimes three are constantly in use throughout the fight.
Why would someone want to have low damage output in their group in these zones. You say that a 55 rogue is better because they take less damage? Evade; that's part of a rogue's job. When I invite a rogue to a group- I invite them for their damage output not to find someone who is not going to get aggro from me. That's their job. They should know it.
You also further prove my point when you say this-"Add in a lack of understanding about the HIDE skill being able to be used to drop that aggro, and you'll see how much MORE mana is wasted to keep that 63 rogue alive vs that 55 rogue who isn't hitting or being hit as much." You say a lack of understanding of how to play a rogue makes it harder to keep the groups mana. Thats exactly what this whole post is about. Keeping those that don't know how to play out of the zones they aren't capable of playing in.
Also you say "Rogues get almost nothing.". I disagree. Rogues have the easiest epic in the game. Rogues have tremendous damage output. Rogues have the ability to go places that others can't with their super stealth. Rogues have escape and often can be the only survivors in a wipeout. Could a rogue be improved? Definitely, they need more weapons and higher damage still. Warriors do get hit points, that is their job. It would be kind of senseless to give a rogue all of those hit points also. It would render warriors and other tanks useless in the grouping end of the game.
Lastly "When warriors level up, you guys get lots of hitpoints and good ways to keep them," We do get hit points from levelling up. However this is nowhere that big of a disparity as you think. A level 65 rogue is around 2k hps naked, a warrior is about 3k naked. The warrior's hit points come mostly from their equipment. We have to equip ourselves well simply to tank. Yes you are right, we get ND3 and CA3 and CS3 and PD3, but so do rogues. The only way warriors get more hit points is by searching for equipment for more hit points.
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Old 06-15-2003, 08:06 PM   #47
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Rogues don't get planar durability.
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Old 06-15-2003, 08:10 PM   #48
bumbleroot
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My mistake.
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Old 06-16-2003, 12:10 AM   #49
Jaidin
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Originally posted by angryboy
Okay to start, Jaidin I never said an all level 55 group could or should do tier 2 planes. You guys, who like doing the quotes, try reading them and not just copying.

It's obvious that you have difficulty reading.

I didn't contradict myself in the second paragraph; I expanded on my original statement. I will repeat that statement now.
I don't suggest playing the "I never said that" game. If you like, show me where I spoke of a 55 group, or that you contradicted yourself. Remember, reading is your friend.

Originally posted by angryboy
I tried to explain a couple situations in which a player who is under level 60 would be able to contribute to a group.
Among your examples was a shaman not slowing and a monk doing nothing but pulling and using FD. Might want to try again.

Originally posted by angryboy
I see now that you would rather sit around and do nothing if you didn't have the "perfect" group.
Ah, but we never *said* that!

Originally posted by angryboy
I don't know you or know of your abilities in the game, but from your reluctance to do things that might be a little risky, it seems like you have been able to follow someone else's guides to get where you are now.
Still a bit confused where the attacks on individual skill / experience are coming from. Are you trying to relate our reluctance to group with significantly lower level players to not taking risks?

Originally posted by angryboy
What I was trying to do was explain how some classes can be effective even when they don't fit the "perfect" role. Obviously you cannot have a level 55 main tank. I didn't imply you could. However, a level 55 rogue would be effective in a group in PoV. He wouldn't be the most effective but he would be. If he knew his class well he just might be a better choice than an Ebayed 63rd rogue.
The discussion is not about skill, it's about effectiveness. A 55 rogue might not accrue the aggro that a 63 would, but that 55 will be far less effective if they are played the same. I find it hard to believe that the 55 rogue would be doing enough damage to red con mobs to justify his presence in the group. Normally, I would rather leave the group spot unfilled than fill it with a player that will not be contributing much to the group.

Originally posted by angryboy
I guess the point I am trying to make is that just cause you weren't/aren't good enough at you class to do/try it don't make that judgment for others.
/blinks unknowingly. Are you suggesting that because when I tried to fight red cons in my mid 50's and couldn't land spells or be useful, that I should have to group with players who are in the same position?

Originally posted by angryboy
If you are going to try and argue with me some more I ask you to please at least read my post and not just argue.
I suggest you do the same and think about just how general your statement was. I read what you said as an argument for lower level players to be considered for higher level play because they can still contribute to the group, regardless of *how much* they can. I disagreed because to me I don't understand why a group would want a player whos effectiveness is already capped because of his level in relation to the groups targets. Player skill does not affect the effectiveness discussed here.

This process of levelling within your effectiveness begins at level 1. I hope you can see that this is exactly the same as the rest of the game. If you were still say, level 57 and levelling in sebilis, would you try and convince your group that they should invite a 47 bard because he can be somewhat effective?
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Old 06-16-2003, 09:29 AM   #50
Dureena
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Originally posted by Jaidin

This process of levelling within your effectiveness begins at level 1. I hope you can see that this is exactly the same as the rest of the game. If you were still say, level 57 and levelling in sebilis, would you try and convince your group that they should invite a 47 bard because he can be somewhat effective?
Are you kidding? Why yes I'd invite the bard. I'd also give the bard the following message, "Play either the mana song or the HP/mana song or get disbanded. Leave everything else to us". But I would not invite the lvl 47 Warrior to be the groups Main Tank either.
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