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Old 05-08-2009, 04:43 AM   #51
FafnerMorell
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post
I think you have made a very good point, but I would say that there may not be generally accepted moral authority in the western world anymore. Our culture is either fastly approaching a post-Christian era or is already in it. I would argue that there is a moral authority whether He is recognized as one or not.

Pointing out sin is not "throwing stones". You may not like hearing about your sin; indeed, you may not even believe you sin, but simply because someone tells you about your condition doesn't mean they are attacking you. A doctor telling you that you have a limited life span due to a cancer is not throwing stones (and his telling you doesn't mean he isn't also sick with the same disease): he is telling you of your illness. BUT, I certainly have seen some who do bash others with the Bible and I will not pretend it doesn't happen.

I probably worded my statement poorly. What I meant to say is that I wouldn't want ANY religious institution, including my own, to be the sole power legislating and enforcing laws. That doesn't mean I don't think religious law makers should not push for what they believe is the truth. Let the Roman Catholics, or any other religion follower, try to push their agendas in a democracy; I think that is healthy.
Yeah, I was giving a bit of thought to the Kant/Mills struggle for meta-morality this morning, and realized that, in a democratic culture, it's almost inevitible that Mills is going to win out. "The greatest good for the greatest number" has democracy written all over it - the notion of a centralized authority (often immune to their own rules) decreeing what is good and what is not good is long gone.

And the comment about a post-Christian culture is also, I think, dead on - especially with regard to marriage. But, as you touch on in the comments earlier about divorce, it's been this way for awhile. I've always been a bit surprised that Mark 10:6-6 and Matthew 19:2-11 don't get pulled out more in the gay marriage debate - where you've got Jesus saying rather clearly "Marriage is between a man and a woman". But the problem is, society has long ago discarded everything else in that passage (and as Jesus laments, they were discarding it back in Moses's day).

When it comes to damage to the institute of marriage, gay marriage is the "swine flu" compared to "bubonic plague" of divorce. Yet, the utilitarian value of relatively easy divorce is hard to deny (due to the number of just awful marriages). But as folks have grown up after being affected by divorce, you've got a culture-wide "wariness" of marriage, and 40% of babies these days are being born outside of wedlock (hey, at least they're not getting aborted). Younger folks are marrying much later, or opting out entirely.

To a certain extent, I can understand the fustration of those who look at all this and say "Society is going straight to hell, and it's all the fault of the secular humanists and their secret gay agenda, etc". But, well, society is adapting - and by most "statistical measurements", we're getting better (at least compared to the 70s/80s) or at least staying level.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Davek View Post
A Will is also a form of contract, yet people can will their crap to Fido if they want to.
But Fido can't leave his crap to other people... Except in the form of land mines...
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:22 AM   #53
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Just two points:
  • hate speech: most of the comments I've seen in the blogosphere which reference hate speech legislation wrt gay marriage are plain FUD, with little bearing on reality. There's a difference between saying "sorry, you I won't marry you (on property owned by the church)" and "put another faggot on the fire". The Catholic church does the former quite often - I couldn't marry at the local cathedral if I wanted to, as I don't attend mass on a regular basis.
  • animals, etc: no-one currently has the right to marry an dog. But 50% of the population has the right to marry a man. Denying that right to the other 50% seems like discrimination to me. Or, as a placard I saw at a rally a while ago put it:

    "If Liza Minelli can marry a gay man, why can't I?"
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:41 AM   #54
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Who the hell let Zolmaz out of the hills in Kentucky and into a semi-civilized state like Virginia? Did he score a job with the Obama administration or something?
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Maeri View Post
Just two points:
  • hate speech: most of the comments I've seen in the blogosphere which reference hate speech legislation wrt gay marriage are plain FUD, with little bearing on reality. There's a difference between saying "sorry, you I won't marry you (on property owned by the church)" and "put another faggot on the fire". The Catholic church does the former quite often - I couldn't marry at the local cathedral if I wanted to, as I don't attend mass on a regular basis.
  • animals, etc: no-one currently has the right to marry an dog. But 50% of the population has the right to marry a man. Denying that right to the other 50% seems like discrimination to me. Or, as a placard I saw at a rally a while ago put it:

    "If Liza Minelli can marry a gay man, why can't I?"
While I agree that the government should stay out of the marriage business, the rules on marriage are a uniform ruling in that everybody has a level playing field. Nobody can marry outside of their gender (except in 5 states now) so while it may be telling someone that they can't do something they want, it's also a uniform set of rules everybody has to comply to.

Kind of reminds me of the right to bear children conversation in "The Life of Bryan"

"Of course you can't bear children, you twit... You haven't got a womb!"
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Maeri View Post
Just two points:
[LIST][*]hate speech: most of the comments I've seen in the blogosphere which reference hate speech legislation wrt gay marriage are plain FUD, with little bearing on reality. There's a difference between saying "sorry, you I won't marry you (on property owned by the church)" and "put another faggot on the fire". The Catholic church does the former quite often - I couldn't marry at the local cathedral if I wanted to, as I don't attend mass on a regular basis.


Very true. I still believe churches should have the right to "discriminate". We've made it into an ugly word and in most cases it is, but it seems to be that if you want to be a part of a church you have to play by their rules, or GTFO.


The point I was trying to make earlier is that the precedent is coming fast that this will not be the case anymore. By constantly pushing the authority to the state to define the perameters of the contract more and more, eventually when a state does approve gay marriage, the churches will start getting sued for not performing those marriages.

And I think they will lose allot of those lawsuits, especially with all the evidence readily available that they were so strong in pushing for the state to rule on it. By then it will be far too late to turn to "why can't we just believe what we believe?" Probably it already is.


When you force others to agree with you, you open a big door for them to force you to agree with them.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by AjTaliesen View Post
When you force others to agree with you, you open a big door for them to force you to agree with them.
Exactly. I've got a feeling in a couple of years, there's going to be a lot of religious conservatives suddenly discovering a newfound belief in seperation of Church and State.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Yeah, I was giving a bit of thought to the Kant/Mills struggle for meta-morality this morning, and realized that, in a democratic culture, it's almost inevitable that Mills is going to win out. "The greatest good for the greatest number" has democracy written all over it - the notion of a centralized authority (often immune to their own rules) decreeing what is good and what is not good is long gone.
Faf, are you keeping up on Kant and Mills for "business or pleasure"? The last time I had to read either of the two, where deontology is concerned, was back in college in the late 80s.

Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
And the comment about a post-Christian culture is also, I think, dead on - especially with regard to marriage. But, as you touch on in the comments earlier about divorce, it's been this way for awhile. I've always been a bit surprised that Mark 10:6-6 and Matthew 19:2-11 don't get pulled out more in the gay marriage debate - where you've got Jesus saying rather clearly "Marriage is between a man and a woman". But the problem is, society has long ago discarded everything else in that passage (and as Jesus laments, they were discarding it back in Moses's day).
I have used those Scriptures on occasion, but if the person "hearing" those words does not accept the Scriptures as an authority.... You are right, western culture has underwent large changes. What is concerning to me is the continued growth of Islam in the west. It is somewhat ironic that as the west has been slowly abandoning Christianity, a resurgence toward what I would say is a more rigid, law oriented, religion (Islam) is occurring at the same time. I think some of the blame for this rests upon Christendom. Perhaps as Christianity has tried to be more like the culture around them, people took notice and didn't see anything being offered they didn't already have. And, the "Christians" that have gotten the most attention have either been hate-mongers who haven't a clue about God's mercy and grace, or they have been wishy-washy universalists who seem to only want to offer therapy sessions and mimic Dr. Phil or Oprah, rather than teach the Gospel. Well... then there are the faith healers and prosperity teachers... I don't want to go there! My blood pressure starts rising. The point is that I think, by and large, churches in the west have abandoned the message of the Gospel in order to cater to the felt needs of the culture around them and so have simply put themselves on the "store shelf of life". These churches are offering a product now. So who is going to buy when there are so many other "flavors" to choose from? I think this is where Islam has been making some inroads, because they aren't concerned with changing their message to fit the culture around them; rather, they want to change the culture. I think that is appealing to some people.

Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
When it comes to damage to the institute of marriage, gay marriage is the "swine flu" compared to "bubonic plague" of divorce.
I think that is right. By and large the Church has drawn the battle line on the wrong part of the map. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Church (and here I am talking about Christianity and not just Roman Catholicism) should take a stand against "gay marriage", but the real battle is over souls.

Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Yet, the utilitarian value of relatively easy divorce is hard to deny (due to the number of just awful marriages). But as folks have grown up after being affected by divorce, you've got a culture-wide "wariness" of marriage, and 40% of babies these days are being born outside of wedlock (hey, at least they're not getting aborted). Younger folks are marrying much later, or opting out entirely.
Dead nuts on.

Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
To a certain extent, I can understand the fustration of those who look at all this and say "Society is going straight to hell, and it's all the fault of the secular humanists and their secret gay agenda, etc".
I, too, can understand such a frustration. I am one of those people who believes society is "going straight to hell". I don't blame the secular humanists, or the homosexuals, or the pedophile priests. I blame our affluence and power in the world. We believe we have built all these great things for ourselves and don't either understand, don't know, or have forgotten, that it is God that raises up powers and it is He that brings them down. Yes, yes, I know... I was an atheist not that long ago... so I understand the skepticism over such a comment.

Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
But, well, society is adapting - and by most "statistical measurements", we're getting better (at least compared to the 70s/80s) or at least staying level.
Getting better how? If I am the one setting the standards for "good" and "bad", it is REALLY EASY to see my self getting better. It is proportional to the bar being set lower, or to a redefinition of what is bad.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post

Getting better how? If I am the one setting the standards for "good" and "bad", it is REALLY EASY to see my self getting better. It is proportional to the bar being set lower, or to a redefinition of what is bad.
Not to put words in his mouth, but what I took from what he wrote (and agree with) is that allot of people are choosing not to marry so early is a good thing. I know I'd rather see unmarried, even living in sin than divorced. As a lesser of two evils.

I don't see a big political stand on curbing divorce though. The last major politician I can remember even touching the issue was Dan Quayle and he got roasted alive over it.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post
Faf, are you keeping up on Kant and Mills for "business or pleasure"? The last time I had to read either of the two, where deontology is concerned, was back in college in the late 80s.
Well, it's pretty common for my presentations on silicon chip design to include quotes from Alfred Whitehead or C. S. Lewis, but deontology/morality wasn't an active of mine till I had kids, and even now I just skim the surface of these very deep waters, mostly just in search of whether there's some pragmatically useful flotsam to tack onto my philosophical raft).
Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post
I have used those Scriptures on occasion, but if the person "hearing" those words does not accept the Scriptures as an authority.... You are right, western culture has underwent large changes. What is concerning to me is the continued growth of Islam in the west. It is somewhat ironic that as the west has been slowly abandoning Christianity, a resurgence toward what I would say is a more rigid, law oriented, religion (Islam) is occurring at the same time. I think some of the blame for this rests upon Christendom. Perhaps as Christianity has tried to be more like the culture around them, people took notice and didn't see anything being offered they didn't already have. And, the "Christians" that have gotten the most attention have either been hate-mongers who haven't a clue about God's mercy and grace, or they have been wishy-washy universalists who seem to only want to offer therapy sessions and mimic Dr. Phil or Oprah, rather than teach the Gospel. Well... then there are the faith healers and prosperity teachers... I don't want to go there! My blood pressure starts rising. The point is that I think, by and large, churches in the west have abandoned the message of the Gospel in order to cater to the felt needs of the culture around them and so have simply put themselves on the "store shelf of life". These churches are offering a product now. So who is going to buy when there are so many other "flavors" to choose from? I think this is where Islam has been making some inroads, because they aren't concerned with changing their message to fit the culture around them; rather, they want to change the culture. I think that is appealing to some people.
Yeah - it's a good observation. I suspect we might disagree a bit on the details on interpretation, but I do think one of the real, true struggles that Christianity is facing is this "selling out" and corruption.
Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post
Getting better how? If I am the one setting the standards for "good" and "bad", it is REALLY EASY to see my self getting better. It is proportional to the bar being set lower, or to a redefinition of what is bad.
Well, in the 70s/80s, there's was hockey-stick growth in divorce, abortions, serious drug use and crime. This did set the bar really low. I tend to be somewhat optimistic - folks are at least well aware of the problems, and while dealing with them imperfectly, working through them. I do think, however, that it's probably Oprah and Dr. Phil getting more of the credit for leading our nation thru this mess (due to religious & political leaders being more interested in personal power & money (geez, these people made Oprah look selfless. Oprah!), and that does worry me. As a nation, we're building on very thin foundations.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:36 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Well, it's pretty common for my presentations on silicon chip design to include quotes from Alfred Whitehead or C. S. Lewis, but deontology/morality wasn't an active of mine till I had kids, and even now I just skim the surface of these very deep waters, mostly just in search of whether there's some pragmatically useful flotsam to tack onto my philosophical raft).
Ah, very cool! I have enjoyed reading your comments.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:39 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by AjTaliesen View Post
I don't see a big political stand on curbing divorce though. The last major politician I can remember even touching the issue was Dan Quayle and he got roasted alive over it.
He was roasted like a potatoe.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
Who the hell let Zolmaz out of the hills in Kentucky and into a semi-civilized state like Virginia? Did he score a job with the Obama administration or something?
I lived on the River across from The All American Ball Park, thank you.

Living on the beach in VA. with a swimming pool is called benefits.
Maybe you should work harder "Hormy".
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:17 AM   #64
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Today's moral bible, if you will, could consist of two chapters:

Chapter One: Health of Self and Others
Examples of changes from previous moral lecture..

1. Drinking is Ok, so as long as you obey the following
a. Do not provide alcohol to anyone under the age of 21.
b. Do not drive after consuming alcohol.
c. Control aggressive behaviors while on alcohol.
d. Only consume alcohol in moderation.

2. Smoking is legal, but the Health of Others must be observed while smoking.
a. No smoking around anyone, or anywhere, where non-smokers may be
gathered.
b. Smoking, while legal, must be accompanied by a deep desire to quit
smoking.

3. Sex, in all forms, is legal so as long as Health of Others is observed.
a. "Risky sex", or unprotected with possible conception consequences, is
frowned upon.
b. Minors may engage in sex so as long as they are first fully educated
about the possible Bad Health implications, and the proper precautions
are employed.
c. Sex that crosses species, age groups, and or gender is subject to the
most current Medical Data that either supports or rejects such behavior.

4. Gambling, considered a boost to many local economies, is Ok in moderation as long as the Health of Others is observed.


Chapter Two: Acceptance and Tolerance of All Things

1. Religions, of all kind, are to be accepted so as long as they do not violate
the principle rule of Acceptance and Tolerance.

2. Vocal condemnation of any action, less those which violate Health of Others
or which violate the spirit of Acceptance and Tolerance, is forbidden.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by AjTaliesen View Post
Very true. I still believe churches should have the right to "discriminate". We've made it into an ugly word and in most cases it is, but it seems to be that if you want to be a part of a church you have to play by their rules, or GTFO.


The point I was trying to make earlier is that the precedent is coming fast that this will not be the case anymore. By constantly pushing the authority to the state to define the perameters of the contract more and more, eventually when a state does approve gay marriage, the churches will start getting sued for not performing those marriages.

And I think they will lose allot of those lawsuits, especially with all the evidence readily available that they were so strong in pushing for the state to rule on it. By then it will be far too late to turn to "why can't we just believe what we believe?" Probably it already is.


When you force others to agree with you, you open a big door for them to force you to agree with them.

So gay people get to rewrite the bible in order for the world to conform to them? not exactly the way God intended it......

They have already tried to discount the old testament, they null and void anything that they disagree with, which the bible pretty much predicts will happen anyway, no real church with real conviction will EVER let the government or anyone else force them to kick God in the balls with Bullshit practices.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:22 PM   #66
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So gay people get to rewrite the bible in order for the world to conform to them?
Why not, it worked for the Church.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Axgar View Post
So gay people get to rewrite the bible in order for the world to conform to them? not exactly the way God intended it.....
Which is why it was a bad idea to turn to the government to set biblical rules. You want the government to set rules for what churches are allowed to believe, then they will do so.

Personally, I don't think you should want the government to have the control. I think it's stupid that you seem to. You now realize it's wrong for secular to redefine the bible, now make the connection: stop asking the secular to take control on the matter.

Originally Posted by Axgar View Post
They have already tried to discount the old testament, they null and void anything that they disagree with, which the bible pretty much predicts will happen anyway, no real church with real conviction will EVER let the government or anyone else force them to kick God in the balls with Bullshit practices.
You're a few hundred years too late for that argument. Genesis, Leviticus, and exodus in particular could make very interesting reading for you one day. Arguably you may even be two thousand years late, since allot of early Christianity really isn't in accordance with previous scriptural law. acts and the letters of Paul in particular make a point of picking and choosing among the laws, even among the commandments themselves as secondary to faith and dismissable.http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/R...14%3A5&ver=NIV (romans 14, some interesting remarks not just about the commandment to observe the seventh day, rather than the first day of the week, as well as a few useful thoughts on judging other believers based on observance to the minutia of scriptural law).

The truth is, NO church in America, not a single one, practices scriptural law as set forth in the old testament. The Christian Church was originally founded by men who wrote in the bible itself that such observance was not needed. Not to mention, some of the ordinances are already illegal under American law. Have been for 150 years.

Before we even get into your own damnation for not living a scriptural life, how about learning what exactly a completely scriptural life would even entail before condemning others for not living up to it?

You condemn others as immoral for picking and choosing among the scriptures, yet you not only pick and choose yourself, but actually condemn others for not picking and choosing the same passages as you.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:38 PM   #68
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And in response to Bumbles earlier thread about why the general view of American Christianity seems to be in decline, I've always felt it has something to do with the fact that even though I've used scriptural examples above, it's now traditional to respond to me by calling me dark sided (or rather "daurk saided") and accuse me of devilry in trying to confuse the issue with fancy words.

I picture The God Warrior when it happens. The whole episode is available on youtube, but this excerpt is the fun part.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:06 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz Zo'Boto View Post
I lived on the River across from The All American Ball Park, thank you.

Living on the beach in VA. with a swimming pool is called benefits.
Maybe you should work harder "Hormy".
So before you took the new job as a pool cleaner, did you take your van with you from down by the river or did you just leave it up on blocks?
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:10 AM   #70
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I love when Bible worshippers get bludgeoned with their own scriptures. Aj 100, Axgar 0 (being generous).
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:10 PM   #71
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I still don't think Axgar is like the god Warrior. That episode was just good entertainment.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:52 PM   #72
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I havent read a word of what nitwit said, there is nothing in scripture to OK gay marriage and there are many many reasons in the scripture not to except it, to bad the self proclaimed genius in you can not understand scripture one iota.

Go ahead and read Romans 1 26-27 then AJ

As far as sabbath, SUNday is not sabbath IMO so...... whatever.

As far as orginized churches....not a member of any yet because so far they have all fallen victim to politically correct BULLSHIT and have discounted the bible totally.

As far as gay people being any worse off than a person committing adultery.... I have never said that and do not believe that at all, BUT the fact is being gay is wrong, the Old testament should not be discounted.

Look at the Roman empire, it was the greates Empire EVER in its time, but their liberal (yea thats what they ended up) actions such as rampant homosexuality, murder, adultery, prostitution ect brought them down, Im a firm believer that if we all followed scripture more closely the United States would have flourished forever BUT the bible pretty much predicts EVERYTHING that has happened to us over the history of our country and we will someday fall just like everyone else and eventually Jesus will come bail us out and some of us will be to late.

Im not saying Im going to heaven mind you, I have a LOT of things to work out before I can expect that, IM just on topic, hell it also says in the bible drunkards will have a problem, and that is probably what you were talking about AJ I dunno, that is in corinthians somewhere.

So basically, although Im talking about Gays atm, if you want to throw in the discussion of drunkards thats fine........ no arguement from me you are right.

Although being a drunkard 20 years ago dont mean you are one today, just like being a homosexual today dont mean you HAVE to be one tomorrow, thats the great thing about God......he gave us a means of being forgiven.

Im not the guy deciding whom will live forever and those whom will be cast aside (and no I do not believe we will be in a fiery pit forever and ever).

Last edited by Axgar; 05-12-2009 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:28 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Axgar View Post
just like being a homosexual today dont mean you HAVE to be one tomorrow, thats the great thing about God......he gave us a means of being forgiven.
Why would I change how God made me?
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Davek View Post
Why would I change how God made me?
Best.
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Ever.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:20 AM   #75
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Im sorry dude I think it is a choice you make, do you think God made Charles Manson the way he is? the simple fact of the matter is this, God gives us choices and he gave us a set of rules to live by (scripture) the choices we make decide our fate, the choices we make as a country decides our countries fate, people blame God for things like Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Flooding ect, when in fact we as a people have pushed God away from us, so in return he basically said ok here ya go see how ya do on your own then..... obviously the majority of us are not fareing so well.

Im not putting you down Davek, or at least not trying to, I am no better I am making some pretty stupid choice to (Id say ignorant but that would imply that I dont know any better), the only reason Im pushing it on the gay issue is that the gay issue was the thread topic.

I will NOT argue the drinking point as far as angering God because I wouldnt have a leg to stand on, I wont say you are going to burn in hell (figure of speech to me because I dont beleive anyone will, at least not forever and ever in pain) because that is not my job, now OUR job as a society is to tell people about God the bible wants us to do that, I do not believe that JUST beleiving in God will get you into heaven, I believe that if you believe in God you will try to change/conform to the way he wants you to live and (try) quit makeing the same mistakes over and over.

You in the end make the decision dude, just as I do and when it all comes to pass we as individual will answer to God........ and I won't have a thing to do with whether anyone passes judgement.

I doubt you are a bad guy, I think a little misguided on sexuality but then again you think I am misguided on a lot of things lol so we will call that a horse apiece........
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