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Old 01-30-2002, 01:08 AM   #26
Ulujain Ebonelphette
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Default Re: Cendan...


Tuan, or anyone else. You may be interested in what this person has to say:
home.talkcity.com/librarydr/eztoamuse/webdoc11.htm

Takes the book of Matthew apart quite nicely IMHO.
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Old 01-30-2002, 02:21 AM   #27
Tuan00Dorf
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While that cross-examination is interesting, it does seem to be too literal in some ways, but does have a lot of valid points.

What I am really wondering is when this is said "Jesus died for our sins" or "God gave his only Son for us", they just don't make any sense because Jesus just rose from the dead. And if he died and not come back, Jesus knew he was just going right to heaven to be with God, so what did he give or God give up at the time?
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Old 01-30-2002, 04:04 AM   #28
Tealdare1
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He suffered greatly before death and during death. This was not a quick and painless death. Also, imagine suffering and being killed at the hands of the person (people) you loved. Not to mention the betrayal of one of those closest to Him. If nothing else I would say He humbled himself to save others. If He hadn't, He couldn't have gone through all those things.
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Old 01-30-2002, 05:20 AM   #29
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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Default Re: Cendan on Time, and God =)


What do you base the above assertion on?
Based on the the premise that I am a supreme being to something like a roach and that the things I do probably dont make much sense to the roach. Course thats probably a bad example considering they will most likely outlive the human race

See that is another real problem. Many Christians, when faced with paradoxes much like those I presented, lapse into irrationality
Its not irrational just because you believe differently

You know, maybe God wears Nikes and eats pizza. Hell, he is God he can do anything!
Whos to say he doesnt

I would argue that if there is a god that he created rational minds to discover the laws of logic
Now youre making an assertation that is baseless. Im not saying its a bad things cause I do it. I have no proof of my theories. Of course you have no proof or evidence of your theory either

Well, maybe absurd to you but meaningful to God" will not do, since you would then be denying that rules of logic have any value outside human experience.
You keep referring to back to the human experience and once again I think that God can only be speculated at in the sense of the human experience

Ah, no. Events by definition are temporal. They are an interval of time. An "infinite event" is the same as saying "timeless event" which is incoherent.
Of course it would be to us, finite human beings

Again, no. Another contradiction. "Creation" is finite, it has duraton. It is a contradiction to say "God created at t1, X, which always existed".
Once again, you have nothing more to base this on than your own human experience which you rightly accused me of doing. Your own human experience could not possibly help you when defining an infinite and all powerful being.

Sure you can haul off and believe what you want, but without a rational basis your belief is equivalent to someone else's irrational belief in the Boogey Man or Santa Claus
The things Ive experienced in my life lead me to believe there is a God. I wont get into that here. The same has not happened with santa or the boogey man

God can willy nilly do what so ever he (or she) pleases to do. With God at the helm the world is just some chaotic place where one moment it rains H2O in Seattle and another moment it rains Chickens out of the sky for days, just because he is God and can do as he pleases.
Or another minute a mass of particles is created then is formed into a universe with complex interactive systems. I agree he could do whatever he wanted.

What Im trying to get at is that I have no hope of ever understand truly what God is or what his purpose is. I can only speculate and then fill in the holes with my faith. Its different than you trying to tell me what God could and could not do. In either case I agree with you that its quite absurd. I can live with that, however
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Old 01-30-2002, 05:25 AM   #30
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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Default Re: Cendan on Time, and God =)


Edit last paragraph to say, Its NO different....
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:04 AM   #31
Lurikeen
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Default Re: Cendan on Time, and God =)


Fair enough, Trech. Good responses.

BTW, by "irrational" I was not meaning "stupid". Instead I meant "not governed by reason, not coherent with rules of logic".

Also, if God creates he has a relationship with that created. The relationship implies duration FOR God; and an interval in time FOR God. This is not human experience and I think that is where you missed my point. Instead, it is true by definition: analytically true.

The same applies to "timeless Event". The phrase "timeless event" is not meaningful because it is incoherent by defintion.

What I have gathered from your posts, Trech, is that you seem to believe that God is not bound by laws of logic or mathematics. For God, "Not Green" can be equally true as it may be false; "2+2" can be equally equaivalent to 4 as 6.

If that is your faith, then I am not going to attempt to change your mind. I am just pointing out that if there is a God he is bound by laws of logic, math, and nature. Otherwise, nothing at all can be meaningfully said about God. We could say things like "God can create a stone so big he can't lift it" which makes no sense at all, and should make no sense at all to God. We can know that by definition.
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:31 AM   #32
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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What I have gathered from your posts, Trech, is that you seem to believe that God is not bound by laws of logic or mathematics
You got it. This is exactly what I am saying. I dont think that the creator is bound by his creation. Through my belief system we have the ability to use things like mathematics and logical reasoning because God created them for us. He, however, is not bound by the limitations of our minds

I am just pointing out that if there is a God he is bound by laws of logic, math, and nature. Otherwise, nothing at all can be meaningfully said about God.
I think that many meaningful things can be said about God but we are limited by our simplistic skills as humans

Anways, youre right, its a good topic and neither one of us is going to be swayed one way or the other due to the nature of our belief system. We will probably just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:02 AM   #33
Cendan
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Default Re: Cendan on Time, and God =)


Sorry I haven't replied, just not felt great. Anyway...


<font color=yellow>Lurikeen, </font color>

I am not aware what God uses to pass time... I don't know that he cares to. I mean He may in His mind say things like "100 years before creation I..." but then since the year is based on the placement of the universe it is very unlikely that he goes by our time clock.

He may have some "clock" he goes by but I wouldn't see the point for an eteranl being.

Who said there has always been light? I doubt seriously that God has need for light. So light was created for us, His creation.

Okay, I agree that if God spoke it would be a refrence point, and if I said otherwise then I mispoke. My point is that it doesn't matter. God created the world without speaking, with a mere thought. His timeline is the same thing... it just doesn't matter. As an all knowing entity He remembers them all but infinity is a hard concept for us as humans. What is a dot on a line that never ends?

Lurikeen, I don't know if you are playing a game, batiting, or what... but it makes no sense to me. Just because God has a point of refrence in regard to creation it does not make Him have duration, not limited anyway.

In the end we just can't know. Does time as we know it cease to exist when our universe is gone? Or even just our earth since the planets all have different length of "years." Will God someday say "100 years after I destroyed the world....." I don't know but I doubt it. The span of this universe is nothing in comparison to infinity.


Let me add this, since I have read the new posts that were written while I was babbling out a response.

I am not going into interpretation of what Trech says or you say on the binding of God to math and science. Let me say what I think.

I think that God is all powerful. I do, however, think he limits himself to human refrence as far as His interaction with humans. If we read in the Bible that Noah took 2 of each unclean animal and 7 of each clean, it is my firm belief that God will always say 2 when he means 2 and 4 when he means four. I think God would say that 2+2 = 4 in refrence to human mentality. What I mean is that "2" is nothing. 2 What? You can't put a "2" in your pocket and even if you add 2 more... its still only a 4, which you can't put in yout closet. It is a refrence. Any refrence COULD have been chosen to describe what "two" does. "Three" could have been chosen to describe what "two" does. All that rambling is simply to say that God is bound by laws of mathmatics because otherwise He would only confuse mankind, and I don't think that numbers really have any eternal meaning to God.

Now, as far as science. Human scientific law says that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It just changes form. God is not limited by that. If He creates then it is created. I seriously doubt that it is taken from His power. I doubt His "light" flickered when He used the power to create our universe. Every miracle in the Bible defies science, or it wouldn't be a miracle would it?

Could God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? Limited to human understanding that just baffles me, but I am sure to Him... its not even worth a thought.


Anyway, I am rambling at this point.



<font color=yellow>Tuan,</font color>

Let me try to answer this without getting into the "does God exist" debate that I avoid now.

Okay, Faith is belief. It is not "I think." So if a Christian knows the answers to the "ultimate" questions then he knows. The answers are available to all in the Bible.

Lets say you know your parents are your parents. Lets say that tomorrow someone comes in and proves you wrong. It does not change the fact that the day before you knew they were your parents. The alternatice is that we go through life knowing nothing, only thinking maybe. Do we want to get to the point that every statement is prefixed with "as far as I know?"

It is possible someone will prove me wrong, and even if no one does, it is possible I will get to heaven and God will tell me I was wrong. Either way I know what I know.

You are correct in your memory of my denial of evolution. Simple things turning complex goes against my logic more than believing (read knowing) there is a God.

People say the earth is proven to be millions of years old. First off the inacuracies are as prevelant as the "proven" when it comes to dating. Besides that is easy explained to someone who believe in God. If God can create Adam and Eve as full grown humans then surely He can create the world they live in as a mature planet. Would a baby planet serve the needs of adult humans? dont know.

I will admit that I don't know where dinosaurs fit in... but I don't have to in the grand scheme of things. Just because God didn't view them as important enough to mention doesn't mean they didn't exist. I am curious though, went through a serious dinosaur fascination as a child.

Okay, don't think I left anything out. The last thing you asked was about God giving up His Son. It dies not say He gave Him up forever. He gave up His Son to humility, to shame, to pain, and to death. Don't let the fact that He was risen in 3 days negate the fact that He went through something that God/Son of God should have never had to go through. For ingrates no less.


<font color=yellow>Ulujain,</font color>

I read your "trial" of Matthew which contains many inaccuracies as well as being trite and not even very well thought out. I may offer a more detailed response in the future if I get bored enough. Meanwhile look at for a better source.

Don't take that as an insult since you didnt write that.

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Old 01-30-2002, 11:35 AM   #34
Tantrid
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Default Re: Cendan on Time, and God =)


The fact is you don't know. I question religion only beacuse evidence such as human evolution
Tuan,

Yes there is strong evidence for the theory of evolution but you must remember that the theory relies on the concept of biogenesis, the spontaneous appearance of life. The problem there is biogenesis has never been obseved nor recreated and therefore cant be confirmed
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Old 01-30-2002, 12:17 PM   #35
Lurikeen
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Default Cendan


"but then since the year is based on the placement of the universe it is very unlikely that he goes by our time clock."
Let me clear up a misconception. If what I have been writiting is true it is not proof there is no God. It is proof that if there is a God, he would not be timeless (Eternal). Furthermore, as I stated before my arguments do not hinge upon a particular view of time. Time is a measurable period or condition. An event is a measurable interval in time, such as the moment of Creation (if there was such a moment). We say that something has duration as it persists or continues. Having duration logically entails time.

"He may have some "clock" he goes by but I wouldn't see the point for an eteranl being."
My point is that God is not a "eternal being" and we can know this is true by definition. Hence, God has a "Clock" because, if there exists a God he must exist in time.

"My point is that it doesn't matter. God created the world without speaking, with a mere thought. His timeline is the same thing... it just doesn't matter. As an all knowing entity He remembers them all but infinity is a hard concept for us as humans. What is a dot on a line that never ends?"
Infinity, in this case, is the property of being boundless attributed to God, should God exist. Having no boundries is a very straightforward concept; just think of the surface of a sphere, there is no single point on the surface that is the beginning or end point. Saying that God is not bound by time means that he does not persist (or endure) through time. I have pointed out why that view doesn't make sense. The best response has been to throw out rules of logic and mathematics with regard to God. A response I don't think is feasible if one wants to make any rational claims about God, for example.

Also, it doesn't mater, Cendan, if God spoke or thought. The point was that the act of Creation would mark an interval in time relative to God. In other words, God would have a clock with that interval marked on it. God could say then that he existed at the time, just as we say we exist at specific intervals. What that means, Cendan, is that God would have duration; he would be a creature bound in time.

"Lurikeen, I don't know if you are playing a game, batiting, or what... but it makes no sense to me. Just because God has a point of refrence in regard to creation it does not make Him have duration, not limited anyway."
I am not playing a game and see the above paragraph in response to your statement regarding duration.

As far as the rest of what you stated I think the position that God is not "limited" by the laws of nature, logic, mathematics is an irrational view. It is tauntamount to the child's imaginary friend who is ever greater than anything else and can do feats ever greater that are limitless. When asked to show this imaginary friend the child retorts that only those who believe him can "see".

In the end there can be no rational discourse with such people because no matter what appeal to logic is made, no matter what empirical evidence it trotted out, the "believer" still has their imaginary friend who can do no wrong and is limitless in their eyes.

Let me just add belief in a god is a comforting psychological response to deep fears and anxieties over the uncertainties contained in life. I am not here trying to take that comfort away from anyone. Just wanted to assure the believers of that.
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Old 01-30-2002, 12:47 PM   #36
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I disagree with your summary since I don't fear death with or without God. As much as I would like to spend eternity with God I think I would almost prefer to die and have it be over.

Call me morbid but if I was 100% sure this life was it I would eat a bullet now. Do I hate life? nope, I love my life.. but once I was dead I would neither remember, care, or miss it. Why live a life that just ends?

It is very different than an imaginary friend. The friend can not prove its existence like God has.

I am curious. How can anyone say that a God being eternal makes no sense and then be comfortable that matter is eternal. Everything did not come from nothing so then where did it come from?

Beleif in God takes Faith. Belief in evolution takes blind faith.
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Old 01-30-2002, 02:14 PM   #37
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"I disagree with your summary since I don't fear death with or without God. As much as I would like to spend eternity with God I think I would almost prefer to die and have it be over."
A very morbid view of life you have Cendan. I am certain that life will just end. If I am pleasantly surprised with reincarnation, life in hell, life in heaven (because I was Baptist as a young child) or hundreds of other possibilities then so be it. However, for me, life is very much worth living even with an end in site. I wish everyone could enjoy life for what it is today without regard to future.

"It is very different than an imaginary friend. The friend can not prove its existence like God has."
Really? God has proved his existence? When did that happen? Could you post his proof here for us all to see? To date, I have just read proposed proofs of his existence by those who want to believe he exists, but have never seen anthing from God himself.

"I am curious. How can anyone say that a God being eternal makes no sense and then be comfortable that matter is eternal. Everything did not come from nothing so then where did it come from?"
Um, because all our empirical evidence proves the law of science called the "Conservation of Mass" is fact. There is no corallary for the existence of God. Indeed, there is quite the opposite, it is called Ockham's Razor: the Principle of Parsimony in Scientific explanation.

"Beleif in God takes Faith. Belief in evolution takes blind faith."
Cendan, excuse me but that is a load of BS. Just which view of Evolution do you refer to? Many a Christian spouts of as much and doesn't even have a precursory understanding of the general theory of Evolution let alone it's many modern counterparts (Punctuated Equilibrium, Neo-Darwinianism just to name two). So before you start applying "blind faith" to "evolution" you might refresh your memory as to what empiricism is all about: Scientific facts. Now, if you have such facts with regards to the existence of God then by all means present them here. Otherwise drop the entire "blind faith" bull.
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Old 01-30-2002, 02:58 PM   #38
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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Um, because all our empirical evidence proves the law of science called the "Conservation of Mass" is fact. There is no corallary for the existence of God. Indeed, there is quite the opposite, it is called Ockham's Razor: the Principle of Parsimony in Scientific explanation
Good point Lurikeen. However once you study Ockham's Razor you quickly find out that Ockhams's Razor doesn't tell us to discount theory X in favor of the more parsimonious (did I just make up a word) theory Y but simply theory X should be studied and experimented upon first because it is usually the right answer.

I think Tantrid explained it ok. When you get down to the meat of the theory of creationism vs evolution then both are equally unprovable. Creationism because you cant prove God and evolution because you cant prove biogenesis.
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Old 01-30-2002, 03:24 PM   #39
Lurikeen
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You are correct with your insight into Ockham's razor, Trech. However, Ockham was also clear that we should not add entities into an explanation beyond that which is empirically accessable. Unless theists want to step forward and claim that the existence of God is falsifiable "Creationism" can't even count as a scientific hypothesis let alone theory.

Also we must becareful not to confuse evolutionary models with biogenesis and to not confuse biogenesis (the view that life arises from life) with abiogenesis (the view that life arises from inorganic material).

The fact is, Trech, if abiogensis turns out to be true in some form that will go a long ways in support of evolution.

Biogenesis is used by some as an attempt to disprove the idea of abiogenesis.

As far as evoulution goes it is a fact (The fossil record is just too clear and abundant to entertain otherwise). There is sufficient physical evidence to prove the general theory of evolution is a fact. What is questionable is whether or not Darwin's model is correct or some other evolutionary model.
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Old 01-30-2002, 06:34 PM   #40
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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Youre absolutely right and its my fault for not making a clear distinction between biogenesis and abiogenesis. However the fact still remains that only simple proteins (building blocks of life but still not life) can be created from inorganic material, leaving one to accept fossil records but stop short of factualizing evolution.
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Old 01-30-2002, 06:42 PM   #41
Trech Da ShadowKnight
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I must also add this is the most intelligent discussion on the subject that Ive had in a while. I get real tired of hearing "God doesnt exist just because!" as im sure you get equally tired of hearing "God just exists cause he does"
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Old 01-30-2002, 06:48 PM   #42
Cendan
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Lurikeen,

Not going to go into how we got to this point whether you or I first crossed over into the existence of God. If it was me then I apologize because I did not intend to make a statement that would either require you to respond in kind or to leave my comment with no response. As I stated, however, I am not going to discuss the existence of God. That discussion is not productive and never has been here on this board.

It is God's intention that mankind believe in Him with a certain amount of faith rather than emphatic proof, so as close as we get to the fact that He exists, we will still have to exert a certain amount of faith, if for no other reason than the fact that the Bible was written so long ago and the witnesses are all dead.

As far as by view of life, it is not morbid in any way. I have stated that I love my life and I mean that. I tend to vent something and forget in 5 minutes later. I smile almost all day (using the term smile when in reality I have no natural smile, when I am happy or just in a normal mood you can see my smile in and around my eyes.)

I am curious about these different views of evolution you mention. I don't have the knowledge that you seem to on the subject and I don't desire to do a lot of research or understand the laws. This isn't because I have blinders on or fear "education" but rather because in the end they require faith, which in my understanding they claim not to need.

Where does evolution, any theory of, claim matter came from? Is there some new law that states matter can just exist with no explaination? Is there a law stating that a simple object can suddenly become a complex one? Outside of a supernatural event I just don't see how science can allow for such holes.
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:15 PM   #43
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" Where does evolution, any theory of, claim matter came from? Is there some new law that states matter can just exist with no explaination? Is there a law stating that a simple object can suddenly become a complex one? Outside of a supernatural event I just don't see how science can allow for such holes."

Hold on there... Where is your proof where God came from then? You say that we need an explanation to say where matter came from. You believe God made it. Well who made God then?

It does not make sense to say that God "just existed" when we cannot say "matter just existed".

In the world we live in and know right now, I don't see how anyone could possibly even attempt to explain where matter came from. In the same right, I don't see how anyone can say they know where God came from. If it's enough to say that God always existed (which I do think is a logical argument), then it makes just as much sense to say that matter in the universe always existed.
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:58 PM   #44
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Hi Cendan,

I was thinking of delving into a long winded explanation of evoultion and abiogenesis and decided not to.

First, evolution is a fact and need not rely upon abiogenesis to prove it out: they are seperate fields of study. However, if a model of abiogenesis is proven out then it will go a long ways to support evoultionary models. You can read more about abiogenesis here <http://atheism.about.com/cs/aboutabiogenesis/>

As far as the various models of Evolution you can probably do a search on the internet and get to most of them. Stephen Jay Gould is a long time proponent of Punctuated Equilibrium. There are many others. What is important is that these scientists all agree that evolution is a FACT. Where they disagree is how to model the facts, or evidence.

Finally, I want to comment that I am not aware of any law of nature that states matter can "just exist with no explanation". However, I can point you to the first law of Thermodynamics in which it is stated energy is neither created or destroyed (energy is conserved). A similar law is the Conservation of Mass which states matter is neither created or destroyed (matter is conserved). Also, biogenesis proves that complex organisms arise from simple ones. Abiogensis could prove that organic life arises from inorganic materials. All these theories are used in models of evolution. Hope this helps.
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:00 PM   #45
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Cendan here is the link I wanted to provide above on abiogenesis: http://atheism.about.com/cs/aboutabiogenesis/
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:07 PM   #46
Lurikeen
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"However the fact still remains that only simple proteins (building blocks of life but still not life) can be created from inorganic material, leaving one to accept fossil records but stop short of factualizing evolution."
Nope, that is far from the facts, Trech. Models of evolution do not hinge upon abiogenesis. If it turns out that a theory of abiogensis goes through then evolutionary models will only benefit. The general theory of evoultion merely states that complex forms of life arise from less complex forms of life: Cells to apes, apes to humans. Abiogenesis is the idea that life arises from inorganic materials or substances. A rather large difference between the two.

And I agree, with you. I do tire of reading "God exists because I breathe and believe." =) I appreciate the dialogue we are having this go around Trech. It is refreshing, thank you.
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Old 01-30-2002, 10:28 PM   #47
Cendan
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Taun,

I am trying to make myself clear here but with me words are like pictures. I imagine them as complete and beautiful and when I get out a pencil I can't draw for crap.

Anyway...

I am looking at this from the system represented. In my case belief in God. In the case of evolution I am acting presumptuously but at the same time I am asking for input.

In other words... I believe that God is all powerful and all Knowing and can not lie. He says He is forever so He is forever. Not to mention that as a supernatural being it makes sense that He is not limited by our nature. He is outside of nature and therefor could live forever.

Now, science is not my belief when it comes to creation so I am asking for input. Within the laws of science how is mass created? What is the scientific origin of matter. Is science changing to encompass its very oposite in order to explain the unexplainable? Are they now going to say that ever since the big bang the laws came into effect but until then scientific law didnt exist?

It is hard to sit and think that God has just always been there and then He suddenly decided to create our universe. It is even harder to believe that at one time there was one cell or two cells that represented all that was to come.



Lurikeen,

You don't accept the supernatural and yet you are comfortable with he theory that things get better over time? Apes turn into humans. I just find that strange since everything on this planet deteriorates over time.

I skimmed the link you gave me, found a few dead links but got some info. Maybe I was using the wrong word in saying evolution. I encompassed every event and history into that word. I more accurately was refering to the origin of the first cell. Where would I find information on the origin of the first cell and how it was created since it can not be eternal.
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:05 PM   #48
Tuan00Dorf
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You are rationalizing your views by the belief of "God said so and cannot lie". If that is your whole basis, there is no way to have a logical converstaion about this.

What I don't understand is how you want science to 100% prove it's views, such as the evolution of man. Yet you feel comfortable defending your side with no proof.

It is hard to sit and think that God has just always been there and then He suddenly decided to create our universe. It is even harder to believe that at one time there was one cell or two cells that represented all that was to come.
Err, no it's not. There is plenty of proof that shows different types of life started off as very primitive life forms and evolved into higher life forms. Evolution is a fact.

Why is it because we take some parts of scientific theories "on faith", as you do religion, you keep asking for more proof?

I'm not asking you to abandon your religious views, but for you to keep denying and questioning scientific views because there aren't enough facts is simply astounding. You accept religion without facts, and with faith. But you will not accept science with facts and give some faith into the theories that have so much to back them up?
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:22 PM   #49
Cendan
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Taun,

Despite not being a genius this is very easy for me to understand and I can only assume that people who don't understand this don't want to or that I am really not being clear.

Plain and simple the Biblical version of creation claims to be supernatural so its claims are possible within its own standards. I am not saying this proves God's existence, I have already stated that that will require some faith along with the facts. I am ONLY saying that the Bible is possible within its own rules. Would you agree with that statement?

Now, the scientific version. Since I am not informed on the current claims of science this it up to you to answer. Does science, or evolution, provide a universe origin in keeping with its own rules, and if so... what are the rules?


Lets start there, since I don't want to make any assumptions on what science states. I don't need the specific laws, just an idea of what rules science has established to explain origin.

One other thing though...

<font color=yellow>I'm not asking you to abandon your religious views, but for you to keep denying and questioning scientific views because there aren't enough facts is simply astounding. You accept religion without facts, and with faith. But you will not accept science with facts and give some faith into the theories that have so much to back them up? </font color>

The Bible calls for faith and therefore faith is acceptable in coming to a conclusion.

If science states that there is no proof and yet calls you to believe then fine. Fair is fair. It was just my understanding that science prided itself on provable fact.

Am I making any sense at all? I just don't understand how this is hard.

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Old 01-30-2002, 11:58 PM   #50
Tuan00Dorf
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Default Re: Cendan


Again, you want me to provide you with 100% proof using science. Sorry we don't have all the aswers yet.

The bible doesn't explain everything either. Where in the bible does it talk about how God created the rest of the universe, which the Earth makes up maybe .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 001% of it? Lets say you are just talking about the Earth. Sure if you believe the creation story blindly, you could believe the world was created that way. You can believe anything if you don't need any facts.

If science states that there is no proof and yet calls you to believe then fine. Fair is fair. It was just my understanding that science prided itself on provable fact.
Look, science does not have EVERY answer. It has MANY facts, but nothing is 100%. Therefore, since there are so many many many things sciences has proven, you should have some faith that the other theories can and most likely are true.

Am I making any sense at all? I just don't understand how this is hard.
It's hard to understand how you believe the bible so blindly but think science is just total wrong on matters because you don't have 100% proof.

Despite not being a genius this is very easy for me to understand and I can only assume that people who don't understand this don't want to or that I am really not being clear.
You better turn that statement back on yourself. You do not want to believe in any way that science can explain evolution or the creation of the universe, or anything else that conflicts with your religious views.
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