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Old 10-24-2007, 05:00 PM   #1
InTenSity
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Default Why can't I disagree with the troops?

I know a few people here are in the military, but I just have a question. Why after 4 or so years of the war in Iraq do I still have to support the troops. I know that if I signed up today or even 3 years ago, I am going to Iraq. I might hope that I go to Afghanastan to actually fight who bombed the US, but 90% certain I am going to Iraq to fight for oil. Having that knowledge, I now have to think that anyone signing up for the military supports the policies of the current administration. This is a volunteer army, I don't necessarily have to agree with the fact that it now supports whatever the president says is right. And if you don't agree with the administration, why not claim you are gay and be discharged, like quite a few of the translators who actually knew Arabic? Just curious.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:08 PM   #2
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So if they pass a law that you dont like, do you you stop supporting the police?

Serving your country goes beyond whats going on at the moment. Support the men and woman of the military because they had the courage to serve when they had the most to lose, not just when you happen to agree with them.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:21 PM   #3
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I see no reason why someone has to support the military or its members. Its their choice whether to support them or not. It doesn't mean you aren't patriotic if you don't support the military, it may very well mean you dislike the entire concept of war. You can still love your country though.

There is no reason why anyone has to blindly support our military. If we had a mad man running our country and using the military for sinister purposes, why should people support them? And I can guarantee you there are people who feel that way right now. Its their right as citizens to feel this way.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:23 PM   #4
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Intensity our men and women in uniform deserve our support and prayers because they are in a bad situation in Iraq. We don't have to agree with the President's policies or a soldier's reasons for going to war while we provide moral support because they are in harm's way. The goal is to get them home alive and well.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:36 PM   #5
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b_zMU2tX5n8

This should answer the question better than any thing else possibly could.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:33 PM   #6
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As the most powerful country in the world, we need a national defense. A national defense requires membership. We can either volunteer to participate, or be forced to.

Are there other options than the two listed above? Sure. You can refuse the order, and face jail time. You can run away and hope you don't get caught. If the problem were widespread enough and we were unable to defend ourselves, we could all become another country's bitch.

If you can't find any other reason to support our troops, maybe you can at least be grateful that they're doing the job so you don't have to.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:43 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot View Post
I see no reason why someone has to support the military or its members. Its their choice whether to support them or not. It doesn't mean you aren't patriotic if you don't support the military, it may very well mean you dislike the entire concept of war. You can still love your country though.

There is no reason why anyone has to blindly support our military. If we had a mad man running our country and using the military for sinister purposes, why should people support them? And I can guarantee you there are people who feel that way right now. Its their right as citizens to feel this way.

The members of our armed forces defend not only the causes YOU support, but your right to express your lack of appreciation for what they do. Whether they know they will probably be sent to fight for a cause they may not believe in, they also know they are supporting and defending their country, and its citizens. The men and women in our military can see the big picture, and believe their country is worth fighting for, even if they don't agree with every political agenda they are asked to go to war for.

If you are unwilling or unable to volunteer to join your country's military to support and defend your rights and freedom, that's up to you... because there are people who are willing to fight for you... because you are American. That is why you should respect and support them, even if you disagree with the agenda of the government officials who decide which battles they will fight.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:08 PM   #8
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Ok, those responses are great, but what are we defending? Our rights to the oil? I don't understand why these people need to sacrifice their lives, or why they are willing to anymore. What rights of mine are they defending? Habeus Corpus? That's kinda been suspended. Our right to speech? That is being eroded away. Right to a fair trial? I guess, but we are above any laws other than ours, now. Am I supporting the right to torture? Am I supporting or supposed to be supporting blackwater? Why are the men and women over there getting paid 3 times less to be responsible then the merc's we have there? Like I originally said, at this point why do I need to support our troops, they can't be that naive about what getting into the armed forces is about. Hi, I want to be in the navy, can I be stationed in hawaii plz, thx. You have to know and support this false war in order to sign up now. I used to support the troops, but the longer and longer it takes, I don't feel I need to anymore, they CHOSE to go to Iraq, I did not choose that for them. And they aren't defending my rights by being there, those are being taken from me quite well from this administration.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:18 PM   #9
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We are defending many things. For one we are defending our culture which is under attack. We are defending our interests which includes fuel. We are defending a region of the world from falling into terrible darkness as we see with the Taliban. We are defending the liberties of the Iraqi people to ultimately form a free government.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ShardmoonVer.1 View Post
So if they pass a law that you dont like, do you you stop supporting the police?
I missed this one, for one, if they pass a law I don't like, you are correct I probably will not follow it. I do not support the police, tell me why I should...because someone made something a law, I should suddenly follow that law without question? That sounds more fascist or communistic than democratic. Just because something is passed into law does not mean I should obey that law without questioning it. I think there were a few laws in the 1870's or somewhere around there that weren't that great. I just wish people would start to question what they are told, rather than follow blindly...sigh.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Adelphia View Post
We are defending many things. For one we are defending our culture which is under attack. We are defending our interests which includes fuel. We are defending a region of the world from falling into terrible darkness as we see with the Taliban. We are defending the liberties of the Iraqi people to ultimately form a free government.
My culture is not being attacked. If the US is attacked by extremist I will fight for what is mine, but this war is not on our soil, nor will it ever be fought on our soil, I don't believe any country, other than Russia, maybe, wants to fight a war on US soil. I have said before in other threads, if we are fighting for the oil, than claim the oil and lock up the fields and defend those only. Who said the Taliban is bad? I never heard of the Taliban before 9/11, they seemed to be ok then, why are they bad now? I can not believe that if the US were directly attacked and invaded by another country, that its citizens would not rise to the occasion to defend it, I would, if I were in the army or not. But I don't see what rights we are defending in Iraq, other than scare tactics to the general public.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:28 PM   #12
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Why is it I get the feeling it should be Phal at the bar ordering a drink from Axgar right now?

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Old 10-24-2007, 07:34 PM   #13
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Intensity if you believe that we are in Iraq for oil I would say you are partly correct. Like I said that is just one small piece of the puzzle. There is a bigger picture here. Whether you believe it or not your way of life is under attack and 9/11 should be a wake up call for you.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Adelphia View Post
Intensity if you believe that we are in Iraq for oil I would say you are partly correct. Like I said that is just one small piece of the puzzle. There is a bigger picture here. Whether you believe it or not your way of life is under attack and 9/11 should be a wake up call for you.
Ok, again, then, why are we in Iraq and not a larger force in Afghanastan? The attacks came from Bin Laden if I remember correctly and not from Hussein or Iraq, and actually most the terrorist were from Saudi Arabia. 9/11 is a wake up call that if we are attacked, then we will lose more rights from within, than from without.

Why is it I get the feeling it should be Phal at the bar ordering a drink from Axgar right now?
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:55 PM   #15
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Intensity I gave you some reasons why we are in Iraq. I can't convince you those are good reasons. Your mind is made up.
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:58 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
I missed this one, for one, if they pass a law I don't like, you are correct I probably will not follow it. I do not support the police, tell me why I should...because someone made something a law, I should suddenly follow that law without question? That sounds more fascist or communistic than democratic. Just because something is passed into law does not mean I should obey that law without questioning it. I think there were a few laws in the 1870's or somewhere around there that weren't that great. I just wish people would start to question what they are told, rather than follow blindly...sigh.


You are certainly welcome to disobey the law, you are also most welcome to suffer the consequenses of disobeying that law. Civil Disobedience carries a price, if you are willing to pay that price then at least you are true to your convictions and put your money where your mouth is unlike many people in this nation. That said, understand that those that enforce that law (The Police) have sworn an Oath, that we take seriously, to uphold said laws even if we disagree with them. I have made more that a few arrests that I did not like making.

If ya don't like the police fine, no problems here, just do me a favor, next time you are in trouble or need help, call a crackhead, not the police.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Intensity
for one, if they pass a law I don't like, you are correct I probably will not follow it. I do not support the police, tell me why I should...because someone made something a law, I should suddenly follow that law without question?
Question it all you like, and fight like hell to get it changed. In the end, I think you should follow it, even if you don't like it. I prefer order to anarchy, under most circumstances.

Originally Posted by Intensity
That sounds more fascist or communistic than democratic.
We haven't been a true democracy in a long time. A true democracy at this scale would be ridiculous to maintain with any kind of efficiency.

If you don't wanna do anything you don't wanna do, that's fine. Hopefully you can at least respect that there are those out there willing to give their lives to protect your stance on personal freedom.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Lith Ahntalon View Post
You are certainly welcome to disobey the law, you are also most welcome to suffer the consequenses of disobeying that law. Civil Disobedience carries a price, if you are willing to pay that price then at least you are true to your convictions and put your money where your mouth is unlike many people in this nation. That said, understand that those that enforce that law (The Police) have sworn an Oath, that we take seriously, to uphold said laws even if we disagree with them. I have made more that a few arrests that I did not like making.

If ya don't like the police fine, no problems here, just do me a favor, next time you are in trouble or need help, call a crackhead, not the police.
Thanks, I have already paid the fines and prices and whatever else there is. Actually after being busted for narcotics, I found it easier to move into heavier drugs and found out what a fraud AA and NA were. I put in my time and did my dues though, I still pay today for what happened, but I never harmed anyone. People may disagree through semantics, but no one was ever physically or mentally harmed through my actions and I have moved on since my teenage years. I guess the bigger part though is, if a law is passed, lets say it is now legal to wiretap without a warrant (oops that's cool now) and information about something I am doing is overheard who is breaking the law? BTW when I did know that my phone was tapped I used to give out fake addresses I would pick out from the phone book, and set up drug deals at those places. I had no idea what was going on there, but I was into wasting as much time and resources as possible. Now though, I am turning my life around and quickly working my way into middle management, where I can hopefully disappear and live a peaceful life. Not all arrests are rightous, and not all cops are full justice or even being human =D

Why the FU CK is everyone out to make sure that I or other people are safe? Fu ck, I prefer the constitution to my safety, but if everyone wants to be safe, I hear that Russia circa 1965 was relatively safe
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:12 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
Why the FU CK is everyone out to make sure that I or other people are safe?
Maybe because many people live according to the golden rule?
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Adelphia View Post
Maybe because many people live according to the golden rule?
He who has the gold...rules?
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:20 PM   #21
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Lol! No!
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Old 10-24-2007, 09:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
Ok, those responses are great, but what are we defending? Our rights to the oil? I don't understand why these people need to sacrifice their lives, or why they are willing to anymore. What rights of mine are they defending? Habeus Corpus? That's kinda been suspended. Our right to speech? That is being eroded away. Right to a fair trial? I guess, but we are above any laws other than ours, now. Am I supporting the right to torture? Am I supporting or supposed to be supporting blackwater? Why are the men and women over there getting paid 3 times less to be responsible then the merc's we have there? Like I originally said, at this point why do I need to support our troops, they can't be that naive about what getting into the armed forces is about. Hi, I want to be in the navy, can I be stationed in hawaii plz, thx. You have to know and support this false war in order to sign up now. I used to support the troops, but the longer and longer it takes, I don't feel I need to anymore, they CHOSE to go to Iraq, I did not choose that for them. And they aren't defending my rights by being there, those are being taken from me quite well from this administration.
For one thing, many of the US troops being sent to Iraq are National Guard or Reservists, who are prepared to be sent to fight where and when they are asked. They don't go to Iraq because they want to, or are naive, but because they signed a contract to be "on call" when their country needed them. Many others are career military. Those people have invested many years in what they believe is a noble career, and you're suggesting that if they don't throw that all away, they don't deserve support? Why is that, because YOU don't think they should have faith in an institution that you believe has been tainted by our current government officials?


Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
I missed this one, for one, if they pass a law I don't like, you are correct I probably will not follow it. I do not support the police, tell me why I should...because someone made something a law, I should suddenly follow that law without question? That sounds more fascist or communistic than democratic. Just because something is passed into law does not mean I should obey that law without questioning it. I think there were a few laws in the 1870's or somewhere around there that weren't that great. I just wish people would start to question what they are told, rather than follow blindly...sigh.
You don't have to support the police any more than you do the military. One day you may need the police to support you, and maybe then your perspective will change... although if you don't consider what happened on 9/11 an attack on our country, maybe you are beyond seeing outside your own perception.

Not following a law because you don't like it sounds like a perscription for anarchy to me. If you don't like a law, petition to get it changed... write your congressmen, and encourage them to get the law changed. Picking and choosing which laws to obey may serve you now, but what happens when everybody does the same, and you become a victim?



Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
My culture is not being attacked. If the US is attacked by extremist I will fight for what is mine, but this war is not on our soil, nor will it ever be fought on our soil, I don't believe any country, other than Russia, maybe, wants to fight a war on US soil. I have said before in other threads, if we are fighting for the oil, than claim the oil and lock up the fields and defend those only. Who said the Taliban is bad? I never heard of the Taliban before 9/11, they seemed to be ok then, why are they bad now? I can not believe that if the US were directly attacked and invaded by another country, that its citizens would not rise to the occasion to defend it, I would, if I were in the army or not. But I don't see what rights we are defending in Iraq, other than scare tactics to the general public.
Just because you hadn't heard about the Taliban before 9/11 does not mean that it didn't exist, or that they were "ok". Until Hitler started taking over Europe, nobody had heard of the Nazis either.

Sorry to poke holes in your arguments, but the attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11 happened in New York City... which, last I checked, is on American soil. However misdirected the focus of the war has become, we sent forces to Afghanistan and Iraq to send a message that we would not tolerate terrorist attacks against us. Maybe the members of our military who continue to go to Iraq do not share your political views, and believe that they are doing their duty in fighting for their country.

Don't support our troops if you don't want to. Don't obey the laws you don't like if you're willing to face the consequences. Don't keep unpopular opinions to yourself if you want to express them (that's your first amendment right btw... the one you said is being eroded). But don't expect sympathy or support from law abiding, patriotic citizens when you broadcast your opinions in a forum where you are outnumbered.
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Old 10-24-2007, 09:41 PM   #23
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People are naive if they think soldiers live under some pure motive of joining the military to serve their country and should be blindly idolized. Sure, that is a part of that and for some it is possible that is a huge part of it. But people join the military for many reasons; it's a darn good way to make a living if you have nothing else, it has some highly competitive scholarship funds to advance your education, it's a way to put your career choices on hold for a few years after graducation while you sort out what you really want to do, and quite a few reasons I'm can't think of off hand.

Quite a few soldiers don't fully support the war in Iraq but as professionals they perform their job and after all, it's a way to make a living.
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Old 10-25-2007, 05:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Intensity
I might hope that I go to Afghanastan to actually fight who bombed the US, but 90% certain I am going to Iraq to fight for oil.
There are plenty of Al Qaeda in Iraq.
Originally Posted by Intensity
I do not support the police, tell me why I should
Because they are there to protect and serve you. They are doing the job you don't have the guts to do.
Originally Posted by Intensity
Just because something is passed into law does not mean I should obey that law without questioning it.
Question it all you like. Contact your Representative, start a petition, write letters to the papers, do whatever you can to take an unjust law of the books. However, you are still obligated to obey that law. Laws provide order. Without order, there can be only chaos. If everybody started only obeying the laws they agreed with, this country would go down the shitter very quickly.
Originally Posted by Intensity
I just wish people would start to question what they are told, rather than follow blindly...sigh.
Well, I see someone has a flair for the melodramatic! Supporting our troops and police officers has nothing to do with blind allegiance. It has everything to do with wishing our countrymen well, no matter the cause.
Originally Posted by Intensity
I don't believe any country, other than Russia, maybe, wants to fight a war on US soil.
Did I wake up in an alternate reality where the Cold War was still around?
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:00 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by InTenSity View Post
I know a few people here are in the military, but I just have a question. Why after 4 or so years of the war in Iraq do I still have to support the troops. I know that if I signed up today or even 3 years ago, I am going to Iraq. I might hope that I go to Afghanastan to actually fight who bombed the US, but 90% certain I am going to Iraq to fight for oil. Having that knowledge, I now have to think that anyone signing up for the military supports the policies of the current administration. This is a volunteer army, I don't necessarily have to agree with the fact that it now supports whatever the president says is right. And if you don't agree with the administration, why not claim you are gay and be discharged, like quite a few of the translators who actually knew Arabic? Just curious.
You don't have to support anyone.

That being said, you have a few fallacious arguments here.

#1 To say we're fighting in Iraq for Oil is ludicrous. Where's all that oil? We certainly aren't seeing the benefit of it.

#2. Afghani's didn't bomb us. Arabs who were camping out in Afghanistan bombed us. They were trained in Iraq by Iraqi military in part.

#3 In all honesty, we need to take this war even further and take out Iran and Syria. Lybia would have been on the list except that Khadaffi got smart and sucked up to us.

#4. Why support the soldiers? Why listen to the media, who has the agenda of getting rid of Bush, no matter WHAT lies they have to cook up? If you listen to what the soldier's say, Iraq isn't near the quagmire the media would have you believe. For example: How many news sources have you heard recently talking about the fact that deaths are down 70% since June? They certainly are awfully quiet about good news, now aren't they?

So again. support who you want. But if you go by the American Media's reports of Iraq, you're being played for a sucker.
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