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Old 04-18-2007, 11:02 AM   #51
Everclear
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Almost 50 percent of American receive government income... and I am not one of them. I must be getting scrwed. I need to find out how I can get on that big government teet!!

I can't believe I was wasting my time WORKING for a living!! They don't teach ANYTHING in college nowadays!

P.S. Cut off that government crap. Everything on that list needs to be cut off... cept for government employees. I don't mind them.
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
They only HAVE constitutional authority because they FABRICATED it. They invented these powers out of whole cloth. That's why I find the intentions of the founding fathers, espescially the father of the Constitution, to be so important. The SCOTUS of the last 70 years has been pretty much controlled by the more liberal side of things, and that's showing. They've used very loose interpretations of the Constitution to justify their wants. And maybe even the wants of the people.
So, let's just toss out the judicial branch of our government (created by the founding fathers) because of political bias, because they are certainly the only ones guilty of such behavior.

Like it or not, that is their job, to interpret the Constitution. If it makes you feel all tingly to believe they aren't being objective, go right ahead, but just because you say so doesn't make it true..
Originally Posted by Drysdale
But this country isn't about rule of mob, it's SUPPOSED to be about Rule of Law. Another factoid ignored by the SCOTUS recently.
In your opinion.
Originally Posted by Drysdale
So yeah, they had the legal authority to do what they did, because the FFs never envisioned somone so base as to actually legislate from the bench. They had too much faith in their fellow man, and the members of the SCOTUS used that in a power grab that's still going on.
Tell me something: what does the Supreme Court have to gain by deciding this issue one way or the other? I'm pretty sure they can't be fired for doing their jobs, so where's the advantage? It's scary how easily we'll resort to conspiracy theory when something goes on we don't agree with.
Originally Posted by Drysdale
But if you think for one second that the way we're allowing the Federal government to grow right now is in ANY way representative of the ideals of this country, you're dead wrong. Even Hamilton would shudder at what's become of this place.
Yay, more hypocrisy! First you tell me that I shouldn't even pretend to know how the founding fathers think, and here you go doing the exact same thing. Go you!
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:46 AM   #53
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Well, for folks who really believe income tax is slavery, there are alternatives.

If you're a libertarian who loves Heinlein, why, there's New Utopia, run by Lazurus Long himself. Of course, the SEC considers this to be a scam, but that's exactly what an evil government agency would say!

Or there's Monaco - it's got a 700 year-old history, so it's at least not a fly-by-night scam operation. Only downside is its a bit pricey and surrounded by the French (but a very nice view).

But if you're going to flee the US, be warned that the IRS will still hit you up for income tax for 10 years even after you've renounced your citizenship.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Wildane
So, let's just toss out the judicial branch of our government (created by the founding fathers) because of political bias, because they are certainly the only ones guilty of such behavior.
No, lets fix the problem. Again, you resort to silly assertions in the light of a reasonable viewpoint.

Like it or not, that is their job, to interpret the Constitution. If it makes you feel all tingly to believe they aren't being objective, go right ahead, but just because you say so doesn't make it true..

In your opinion.
Not just mine:
To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)

The vision that the founding fathers had of rule of law and equality before the law and no one above the law, that is a very viable vision, but instead of that, we have quasi mob rule.
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some persons exercising rule, their appointment should be as
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some offices, that there should be this one person exercising
rule is, they say, not just, at least when all are similar.
(3.16.1287a15–22) -Aristotle

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I guess I'm in good company.

Tell me something: what does the Supreme Court have to gain by deciding this issue one way or the other?
Influence, power, and furthering of their political viewpoint.

I'm pretty sure they can't be fired for doing their jobs, so where's the advantage? It's scary how easily we'll resort to conspiracy theory when something goes on we don't agree with.Yay, more hypocrisy! First you tell me that I shouldn't even pretend to know how the founding fathers think, and here you go doing the exact same thing. Go you!
No, I'm telling you what they SAID. Big diff.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:31 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Again, you resort to silly assertions in the light of a reasonable viewpoint.
And you haven't been doing the same when you just assume I love everything about the government as is?
Originally Posted by Drysdale
No, I'm telling you what they SAID. Big diff.
No, you said, "Even Hamilton would shudder at what's become of this place." Did you forget?
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Everclear
Almost 50 percent of American receive government income... and I am not one of them. I must be getting scrwed. I need to find out how I can get on that big government teet!!

I can't believe I was wasting my time WORKING for a living!! They don't teach ANYTHING in college nowadays!

P.S. Cut off that government crap. Everything on that list needs to be cut off... cept for government employees. I don't mind them.
those two statements in the same post are kinda funny when you think about it. it appears to me by the paragraph from the original post that states:

Mr. Shilling's analysis found that about 1 in 5 Americans hold a government job or a job reliant on federal spending. A similar number receive Social Security or a government pension. About 19 million others get food stamps, 2 million get subsidized housing, and 5 million get education grants. For all these categories, Mr. Shilling counted dependents as well as the direct recipients of government income.
would lead most to believe that there are WAY more people receiving money from the government through jobs or retirement (pension or ss) from working their lives away than those sitting back on their lazy butts collecting a check.

SOOO, it would seem that most of them were wasting their time working, just like you. (and me!!)

as to the other categories...hmmm, food stamps is always iffy, so easy to take advantage of that one. it needs some real work. subsidized housing...i don't know, been reading lots of stuff about old people lately, i know it benefits them...might be something that can be overhauled in the future when we expect people to plan their retirement better (stolen from the other thread, hehe). education grants...nope, can't really think of a good reason to ditch those - and on the same line the subsidized education loans.

not that i'm arguing the system abusers don't need to be held accountable, i just don't agree with getting rid of all of the aid ... specifically the parts that teach a man to catch a fish rather than just giving him the fish.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:22 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Wildane
And you haven't been doing the same when you just assume I love everything about the government as is?No, you said, "Even Hamilton would shudder at what's become of this place." Did you forget?
That was hyperbole.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
That was hyperbole.
So, it's OK when you do it, but not OK when I do it? Gotcha. Just wanted to be clear.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wildane
So, it's OK when you do it, but not OK when I do it? Gotcha. Just wanted to be clear.


SIGH... Can't tell the difference between a figure of speech and trying to represent people saying what they didn't say...
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
SIGH... Can't tell the difference between a figure of speech and trying to represent people saying what they didn't say...
There's no difference, idiot. I say they wouldn't know how to run the government for a country of this size, you say Hamilton would shudder at what's become of this place. What's the fucking difference, smart guy? Both of us are assuming things we don't know about people we've never met. No difference.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Wildane
There's no difference, idiot. I say they wouldn't know how to run the government for a country of this size, you say Hamilton would shudder at what's become of this place. What's the fucking difference, smart guy? Both of us are assuming things we don't know about people we've never met. No difference.
Except that you haven't got even a SHRED of evidence that he couldn't run the government. I DO have a shred of evidence that he abhorred the ideas of vast federalism.
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:41 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Except that you haven't got even a SHRED of evidence that he couldn't run the government. I DO have a shred of evidence that he abhorred the ideas of vast federalism.
Good god, is it really that impossible to admit you might be wrong about a small thing? You have jack shit, because nobody from the 18th century could have imagined what the world would be like today, so you don't know what he would have thought about how this government is run. Hell, if you took someone who was around when automobiles were first introduced, was against them because they were too noisy and troublesome, and put him in today's world, his beliefs might do a 180. You don't know. Give it up already.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:24 PM   #63
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Nostradomus predicted that you could have it your way at Burger King. Its in the Bible. Page 44. Next to the stuff about the fish that climb up your urine stream and tickle your balls from the inside. I think its Cambodians. Chapter 11, ver 69.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #64
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No, dude, Cambodians 11:69 is the story about Goldilocks and the three wise men. The scrotum minnows are mentioned in the Gospel According to Garp, chapter 7, verse 42.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Beal
People don't starve in the United States. They do starve in other countries. If you would let them live here, they would not starve. Chiteng hates starving people.
Tell that to the Katrina victims.
AND death by thirst also.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:51 PM   #66
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In Wilds defense Drys, I think a lot of the "forefathers" would have shuttered at the though of women voting to...... do you want to dissallow that also?
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:54 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Axgar
In Wilds defense Drys, I think a lot of the "forefathers" would have shuttered at the though of women voting to...... do you want to dissallow that also?
Not to mention their tolerance of slavery in the colonies and after their independence.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:57 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Chiteng
Tell that to the Katrina victims.
AND death by thirst also.
I suspect you'll find that most Katrina victims died from too much water, rather than not enough.

That said, I think public drinking fountains should be free of charge, just in case.
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:01 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Not to mention their tolerance of slavery in the colonies and after their independence.
Yes. If you were not:

Adult == +21
White == Anglo-Saxon-English
Male == XY chromosone
Land Owning == You had money.
Non-Catholic == Not a papist
Preferably Deist == Vauge non-commital religion (safe)

The Forefathers didnt really give a rats.
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:02 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell
I suspect you'll find that most Katrina victims died from too much water, rather than not enough.

That said, I think public drinking fountains should be free of charge, just in case.
Just a reply to the 'it doesnt happen here' People.

Yes it does.
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:14 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Good god, is it really that impossible to admit you might be wrong about a small thing? You have jack shit, because nobody from the 18th century could have imagined what the world would be like today, so you don't know what he would have thought about how this government is run. Hell, if you took someone who was around when automobiles were first introduced, was against them because they were too noisy and troublesome, and put him in today's world, his beliefs might do a 180. You don't know. Give it up already.
Actually, I DO know. Because Madison spoke on the Constitutionality of Charity. You don't know because Madison never spoke of the government as is. Big diff, dude.

(1) In 1793, a number of French citizens were driven out of the French Colony of Hispaniola (now Haiti), landed in Baltimore, and petitioned Congress for financial assistance. Rep. John Nicholas expressed doubt that Congress had the constitutional authority "to bestow the money of their constituents on an act of charity."[1] Rep. Abraham Clark responded that "in a case of this kind, we are not to be tied up by the Constitution." [2]. Rep. Elias Boudinot, another radical Federalist, argued that the general welfare clause authorized this kind of spending.[3] Rep. James Madison resolved the debate by observing that the U.S. owed France money from the Revolutionary War. Madison disagreed with the radical Federalist interpretation of the general welfare clause and argued against setting a dangerous precedent for open-ended spending. Congress could, however, provide money to the French refugees in partial payment of these debts, and thus constitutionally under Congress' Article I powers to pay federal debts.[4]

(2) The second opportunity to debate the constitutionality of federal charity occurred when a fire destroyed much of the previously thriving city of Savannah, Georgia in 1796. The fire was referred to as a "national calamity." Rep. John Milledge related how "[n]ot a public building, not a place of public worship, or of public justice" was left standing. Rep. Willaim Claiborne again raised the radical Federalist argument that the measure to help fund the rebuilding of Savannah was constitutional under the general welfare clause.[5] Reps. Nathaniel Macon[6], William Giles[7], Nicholas[8], and others argued that allocating federal funds to relieve Savannah would violate the Constitution, since such charity was not authorized by any enumerated power in the Constitution. "Insurance offices," not the federal government, were "the proper securities against fire," according to Macon.[8] Rep. Andrew Moore argued "every individual citizen could, if he pleased, show his individual humanity by subscribing to their relief, but it was not Constitutional for them to afford relief from the Treasury."[9] The measure to provide relief to Savannah from federal tax dollars was then defeated 55-24 [10].
Gee... looks like I at least had precedent to draw my hyperbole from. You? You had your ass, and you pulled something from it quite nicely.
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:15 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Wildane
No, dude, Cambodians 11:69 is the story about Goldilocks and the three wise men. The scrotum minnows are mentioned in the Gospel According to Garp, chapter 7, verse 42.
Man I hate those scrotum minnows... But they sure do a good job of catching cockfish!
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:47 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Actually, I DO know. Because Madison spoke on the Constitutionality of Charity. You don't know because Madison never spoke of the government as is. Big diff, dude.



Gee... looks like I at least had precedent to draw my hyperbole from. You? You had your ass, and you pulled something from it quite nicely.
Wow, Drysdale, you still don't get it, and you even referenced it in your post when you said "Madison never spoke of the government as is." You are still trying to apply 18th century principles to the 21st century, so no, you don't have shit. Feel free to continue kidding yourself, though.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:17 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Wow, Drysdale, you still don't get it, and you even referenced it in your post when you said "Madison never spoke of the government as is." You are still trying to apply 18th century principles to the 21st century, so no, you don't have shit. Feel free to continue kidding yourself, though.
Not only does he not get it, but he claimed that Madison spoke on the constitutionality of "charity" in the quote he provided, but nowhere in that quote does Madison speak on it. In fact, the reference to Madison in his quote is in the following:

"Rep. James Madison resolved the debate by observing that the U.S. owed France money from the Revolutionary War. Madison disagreed with the radical Federalist interpretation of the general welfare clause and argued against setting a dangerous precedent for open-ended spending."

Nowhere in that quote do we find Madison commenting on the constitutionality of Charity. However, I did find this particular quote interesting:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.

Annals of Congress, House of Representatives, 3rd Congress, 1st Session, page 170 (1794-01-10) [2]. The Annals summarize speeches in the third person, with the actual text of Madison's quote as follows: "Mr. Madison wished to relieve the sufferers, but was afraid of establishing a dangerous precedent, which might hereafter be perverted to the countenance of purposes very different from those of charity. He acknowledged, for his own part, that he could not undertake to lay his finger on that article in the Federal Constitution which granted a right of Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." The expense in question was for French refugees from the Haitian Revolution. "

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Madison

It is interesting to note that Madison doesn't speak against the government offering charity, per se, but he was worried that money would be spent on things "very different from those of charity" and so he didn't want to set a "dangerous" precedent. Not that the "charity" would be dangerous or unconstitutional (Note how Madison carefully states he can't find an article in the consitution granting authority to congress to spend on charity, but neither does he say it is unconstitutional.), but the spending for something very different than charity would be abusive and unconstitutional.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:56 PM   #75
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Mmm, cockfish.
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