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Old 01-10-2008, 12:52 PM   #326
furo
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Originally Posted by Everclear View Post
But you would right?
Would I hold tribunals? I have no idea, but I do not believe that illegal combatants should be afforded the Constitutional protections that US Citizens get, if that's what you are asking.


Originally Posted by Everclear
If you questioned your leaders you wouldn't be in the military, right?
That's part of my point. If you are personally conflicted with orders given by superiors, i.e. you believe you aren't doing what you swore to do (support / defend the Constitution), then you should get out of the military when possible.
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:42 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Furo
That's part of my point. If you are personally conflicted with orders given by superiors, i.e. you believe you aren't doing what you swore to do (support / defend the Constitution), then you should get out of the military when possible.
How? You can't just leave, can you? Not following orders and whistle blowing is typically criticized by other soldiers who either ignore their conscience or just don't see any problem with what is going on.

Is there a process that you can get out of the military for that? Seems like an institutionalized problem might just have your protests met with strict "discipline".
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:05 AM   #328
furo
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Originally Posted by Everclear View Post
How? You can't just leave, can you? Not following orders and whistle blowing is typically criticized by other soldiers who either ignore their conscience or just don't see any problem with what is going on.

Is there a process that you can get out of the military for that? Seems like an institutionalized problem might just have your protests met with strict "discipline".
Military Service is voluntary, EC. This isn't a draft-system. You sign a contract for 8 years, and depending on your terms, anywhere from 2-5 years of that is active duty, the rest of it is inactive reserve time.

So yes, you can get out. Maybe not the day you want to, but you aren't going to be stuck indefinitely.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:51 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Everclear View Post
How? You can't just leave, can you? Not following orders and whistle blowing is typically criticized by other soldiers who either ignore their conscience or just don't see any problem with what is going on.

Is there a process that you can get out of the military for that? Seems like an institutionalized problem might just have your protests met with strict "discipline".
You know, I'd consider your views on military service grossly offensive if I didn't know the infathomable depth of your ignorance on the subject matter.

Your views consistently seem to denigrate the military with no consideration of what actually occurs in it. You apparently have no understanding of the concept of professional soldier and what it takes to run a military unit.

It seems to me you have some definite preconceived notions on military people, that they have neither morals nor the good character to function as human beings. In your stated views, we all must follow orders without question or must be so socially inept and emotionally immature that we don't understand what is so obvious and unquestionably correct to you, in your opinion.

Now, is your opinion malleable or so concrete that Denali would sooner shift than your views on the military?
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:00 AM   #330
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EC is a long time supporter of the troops. She fucked most of them. I think she actually married one too. Her credentials are hard to question when it comes to government cock.

Other than that, I would probably hit it.
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:27 PM   #331
Everclear
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Originally Posted by Furo
So yes, you can get out. Maybe not the day you want to, but you aren't going to be stuck indefinitely.
But when you have 5 years of service and are being asked to do things you think are wrong... what the heck can you do?

Originally Posted by Parfuna
You know, I'd consider your views on military service grossly offensive if I didn't know the infathomable depth of your ignorance on the subject matter.
Hmmm..... perhaps I haven't made it clear... I like soldiers... I dislike the politicians that tell them what to do.

Originally Posted by Pafuna
Your views consistently seem to denigrate the military with no consideration of what actually occurs in it. You apparently have no understanding of the concept of professional soldier and what it takes to run a military unit
I am not so involved in running small units... I am more closely involved in what is included in military technoological research and implentation (yay defense contracting!).

The military personnel that I associate with are higher brass, so thier jobs are a bit more political. So, I am definitely biased, you are right. I think most of the uppers are sleazoids who care more about agendas than the poor guys on the ground. That is where my disdain for the military comes in. I am eternally sad for the young soldier being moved as a pawn by the higher ups. I can't help it.. my grandfathers my father, and many I have known have been military... and from the outside it is hard not to be angry to see thsoe you care about being manipulated by a third party. Maybe it is voluntary on their part... I still resent it.

Originally Posted by Pafuna
It seems to me you have some definite preconceived notions on military people, that they have neither morals nor the good character to function as human beings. In your stated views, we all must follow orders without question or must be so socially inept and emotionally immature that we don't understand what is so obvious and unquestionably correct to you, in your opinion.
Not at all. But I do think the military takes young naive men and women and uses them in ways they didn't understand they would be used (in many cases) and does not give them the consideration that I think they deserve. The military might refer to units... but I can't help but think of them as people. Sure that is what some sign up for... but I can't stop thinking of them as sons and daughters and just think of them as soldiers.

Originally Posted by Pafuna
Now, is your opinion malleable or so concrete that Denali would sooner shift than your views on the military?
You jsut misunderstand my emotional connection with the military. I have love and admiration for soldiers, and prickly animosity for higher ups and politicians that use them as fodder. I won't deny that when I see a person arguing that being used in a way that I consider a clearly unacceptable use of military personnel... I believe it's because they are being blindly loyal... not in a bad way... in a way that I feel our politicians don't deserve.
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:35 PM   #332
furo
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Originally Posted by Everclear View Post
But when you have 5 years of service and are being asked to do things you think are wrong... what the heck can you do?
Suck it up and smack yourself on the head for signing the enlistment contract. What else do you expect?


Originally Posted by Everclear
So, I am definitely biased, you are right. I think most of the uppers are sleazoids who care more about agendas than the poor guys on the ground. That is where my disdain for the military comes in. I am eternally sad for the young soldier being moved as a pawn by the higher ups.
Sounds like you have a skewed perspective for sure. Show me a Commander who is unwilling to fight on the front lines with his Soldiers and I will show you a shitty officer.
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:37 PM   #333
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Well, maybe they are shitty officers. That is my point. It's the higher ups I don't like.
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