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Old 12-04-2009, 08:29 AM   #1
Drysdale
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Default Global Warming = Slavery = Naziism

Godwin FTW!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...e-james-hansen
The scientist who convinced the world to take notice of the looming danger of global warming says it would be better for the planet and for future generations if next week's Copenhagen climate change summit ended in collapse.
In an interview with the Guardian, James Hansen, the world's pre-eminent climate scientist, said any agreement likely to emerge from the negotiations would be so deeply flawed that it would be better to start again from scratch.
"I would rather it not happen if people accept that as being the right track because it's a disaster track," said Hansen, who heads the Nasa Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York.
"The whole approach is so fundamentally wrong that it is better to reassess the situation. If it is going to be the Kyoto-type thing then [people] will spend years trying to determine exactly what that means." He was speaking as progress towards a deal in Copenhagen received a boost today, with India revealing a target to curb its carbon emissions. All four of the major emitters – the US, China, EU and India – have now tabled offers on emissions, although the equally vexed issue of funding for developing nations to deal with global warming remains deadlocked.
Hansen, in repeated appearances before Congress beginning in 1989, has done more than any other scientist to educate politicians about the causes of global warming and to prod them into action to avoid its most catastrophic consequences. But he is vehemently opposed to the carbon market schemes – in which permits to pollute are bought and sold – which are seen by the EU and other governments as the most efficient way to cut emissions and move to a new clean energy economy.
Hansen is also fiercely critical of Barack Obama – and even Al Gore, who won a Nobel peace prize for his efforts to get the world to act on climate change – saying politicians have failed to meet what he regards as the moral challenge of our age.
In Hansen's view, dealing with climate change allows no room for the compromises that rule the world of elected politics. "This is analagous to the issue of slavery faced by Abraham Lincoln or the issue of Nazism faced by Winston Churchill," he said. "On those kind of issues you cannot compromise. You can't say let's reduce slavery, let's find a compromise and reduce it 50% or reduce it 40%."
He added: "We don't have a leader who is able to grasp it and say what is really needed. Instead we are trying to continue business as usual."
The understated Iowan's journey from climate scientist to activist accelerated in the last years of the Bush administration. Hansen, a reluctant public speaker, says he was forced into the public realm by the increasingly clear looming spectre of droughts, floods, famines and drowned cities indicated by the science.
That enormous body of scientific evidence has been put under a microscope by climate sceptics after last month's release online of hacked emails sent by respected researchers at the climate research unit of the University of East Anglia. Hansen admitted the controversy could shake public's trust, and called for an investigation. "All that stuff they are arguing about the data doesn't really change the analysis at all, but it does leave a very bad impression," he said.
The row reached Congress today, with Republicans accusing the researchers of engaging in "scientific fascism" and pressing the Obama administration's top science adviser, John Holdren, to condemn the email. Holdren, a climate scientist who wrote one of the emails in the UEA trove, said he was prepared to denounce any misuse of data by the scientists – if one is proved.
Hansen has emerged as a leading campaigner against the coal industry, which produces more greenhouse gas emissions than any other fuel source.
He has become a fixture at campus demonstrations and last summer was arrested at a protest against mountaintop mining in West Virginia, where he called the Obama government's policies "half-assed".
He has irked some environmentalists by espousing a direct carbon tax on fuel use. Some see that as a distraction from rallying support in Congress for cap-and-trade legislation that is on the table.
He is scathing of that approach. "This is analagous to the indulgences that the Catholic church sold in the middle ages. The bishops collected lots of money and the sinners got redemption. Both parties liked that arrangement despite its absurdity. That is exactly what's happening," he said. "We've got the developed countries who want to continue more or less business as usual and then these developing countries who want money and that is what they can get through offsets [sold through the carbon markets]."
For all Hansen's pessimism, he insists there is still hope. "It may be that we have already committed to a future sea level rise of a metre or even more but that doesn't mean that you give up.
"Because if you give up you could be talking about tens of metres. So I find it screwy that people say you passed a tipping point so it's too late. In that case what are you thinking: that we are going to abandon the planet? You want to minimise the damage."
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:48 AM   #2
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Godwinisms aside, Hansen is right IF global warming is a fact. Of course we would want to be dilligent in whatever we could do to slow down or reverse global warming and not compromise the measures to be taken to do so.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:13 AM   #3
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Funny thing is, if the "CO2/methane/etc causes global warming/climate change" theory is correct, well, there are lots of ways to absorb these gases from the atmosphere. It wouldn't be trivial, but from an engineering perspective, very doable. And if we are faced with a real crisis (let's say the ocean does start to noticebly rise), well, rather than arguing who's to blame, let's just fix the problem.

The problem with geoengineering (based on the little I know) is we still don't have a solid grip on the mechanics of climate change - and if you mess with things on a global level without understanding how they really work, it's going to be a mess. That's just one of the reasons why the whole Climategate indicates some real problems w/ the underlying science - if everything is based off of fudged data, you don't really know what you know.

That's one of the big "smells fishy" issues I've got with whole climate change agenda:
- If Al Gore, Bono, and the rest really, really believed in what they were saying, they'd realize that buying "carbon offsets" to allow themselves to pollute at 10x to 100x of the level of everyone else is just bullshit.
- If the scientists at CRU (and other spots) really believed in what they were saying, they'd make sure the data was as pristine and widely shared as possible, because if a disaster is coming, well, the folks who can work to prevent it need that data. If a giant metor was headed towards the Earth, would you keep the location of the metor a secret, or purposely give wrong info to the folks working on a rocket to destroy it? Only an idiot would. In fact, not even idiots are that stupid.


As a side note, with the whole Copenhagen fuss about China & India - I suspect over the next few decades you'll see a big effort in both countries to reduce to reduce carbon emissions (just like the US has actually cut carbon emissions under Bush - seriously) - simply from a "pollution reduction" standpoint. When I've been in Bangalore and Dehli over the past few years, folks there are now very keen on this - because as their lifestyles improve (better jobs, etc), keeping the local environment in good shape becomes a higher priority.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:37 PM   #4
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Pollution Absolutely.


one problem. Co2 isn't a pollutant. and a real stumbling block for the morons that don't understand this. crazy as it sounds they have been brain washed over the last 20 years from the media pounding that mantra out over and over and over.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:24 PM   #5
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For India, a lot of pollution comes from fossil fuels burned in a very inefficent manner - like kerosene stoves or the old motor rickshaws. With China, from what I hear, it's the numerous coal plants - which I suspect weren't designed to minimize pollution. I'd be curious what the "real" CO2 savings will be from modernizing a lot of these things, but I suspect governments play the game of picking whatever large amount of savings they can even remotely claim, inflate it some more, and pass it along as what's been achieved.
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by SupportTank View Post
one problem. Co2 isn't a pollutant.
Support, I understand the gist of what you are trying to say, but I think you are being a bit too simplistic about what counts as a "pollutant". Certainly if we have too much C02 in the atmosphere it is a pollutant, it suffocates us. The same can be said for too much nitrogen, methane, etc. Of course in the correct ratio C02 is not a pollutant, but the global warming enthusiast will point out that if you are putting too much C02 into the ecological system, then it can be a pollutant and on that point they are right.
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:44 PM   #7
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then you can apply the exact same logic to water. h2O OMG WE HAVE OCEANS OF THE SHIT ITS GOT TO BE CLEANED UP!
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SupportTank View Post
then you can apply the exact same logic to water. h2O OMG WE HAVE OCEANS OF THE SHIT ITS GOT TO BE CLEANED UP!
You've never heard of water intoxication and hyponatremia? Like I said, you are being simplistic.
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:00 AM   #9
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Actually, the availability of drinking water & such will probably become another hot topic (in some spots it already is) - but again, there's a variety of solutions. And it tends to be a more local problem - whereas a not-too-hidden agenda behind global warming / climate change is that "It's a world-wide problem that needs a world-wide solution, with a world-wide government enforcing/taxing/etc it".
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:07 AM   #10
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Yah know I hate to say this but when you live in a desert water is a problem. (can you say California?)

And lurk. there is massively more water around then co2. we seem to deal with water rather well. so do trees for that matter. and we don't eat co2.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SupportTank View Post
And lurk. there is massively more water around then co2. we seem to deal with water rather well. so do trees for that matter. and we don't eat co2.
You are missing the point. As the old saying goes, "Too much of a good thing can be bad."
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