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Old 12-18-2002, 11:34 PM   #1
Kogur
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Default A little rant...

For everyone and anyone searching for a good rant, please look elsewhere. For those of you who wish to read mindless random thoughts, read on.

This has happened to me time and time again, and I'm sick of it. I get in a group and it's the "perfect group" (ie. cleric, enchanter shaman tank 2 damage dealers), we exp for a while and then someone has to leave. Shaman_01 tells the group,' Guys I really gotta run, cyas' , ok no big deal we just find a replacement whatever class since we still have a slower and mezzer with us.

Now group is made up of cleric enchanter tank and 3 damage dealers. Next thing you know the enchanter has to leave. Let's say one of the damage dealers is a druid and another is a monk. Well, at this point we look and look to try to replace the enchanter or shaman for mez/slow.

No luck with shaman/enchanter, but there's a few people in the group that won't hunt without one or the other and the group ends up breaking up soon after we determine theres no specific class replacement.

My "rant" is this...WHY can people not seem to even give odd-man out groups a shot? It is extremely hard to find people that are willing to hunt if you don't have the "perfect group" lined up. Say we have cleric tank druid 2 monks and a wizard, why can you not effectively hunt with that group? The only reason that I can see is because whiny, bitchy people won't give these types of groups a chance. If it's what you slap together, roll with it and see how it goes, you might find it FUN and CHALLENGING.

I have NEVER turned down a group when I was lfg based on the class make up. I say screw it, it's only exp, try it out and see how it goes, it might be the best damn group you have ever had.

ON TO MY NEXT RANT:

Why would people INSIST on only grouping with individuals because of their guild tag? Oh it's a pickup group? No thanks, they are not in DG/Aff/Magi/MF/RoD, they must have no clue what they are doing and will get me killed repeatedly. WTF makes you people out there think that just because someone isn't as UBER(not level, if you group with too big of a level gap, you end up PLing/getting PLed because one so much overpowers you) as you are, or they aren't in a top 5 guild, that makes them incompetent?!

Whenever I send a tell to Random_Rogue_01 and say "hey, was just wanting to see if ya wanted to go have some fun get some exp" . There's nothing I HATE MORE than seeing a reply to the effect of "What classes ya got?" or "Is it a guild group or a pickup group" .

WTF does it matter if it's my guild or not?! Also, I can see them askin what classes I have, just to make sure we have some type of heals. If I give them a list of classes and they reply with "Nah, sorry man I can't group without an enchanter at the least"...It makes me wanna rip off their fucking head and shit down their neck!!

tata
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Old 12-19-2002, 12:45 AM   #2
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Kogur I agree 100% on the first part.....some of the best groups I have been in were ghetto groups where none of the "essential" classes were present. Pople bailing because you no longer have a "perfect group" line-up is lame.

On the second part I do agree guild shouldn't matter worth a damn as long as everyone is skilled. But...big but...I can see why people would ask if it was a guild group. Reason 1....many guilds will call raids and not even allow time for players to find replacements in their exp groups. Frankly it is extremely frustrating to fight your way to a camp just to see 4 or 5 members say I am soo sorry but my guild just called a raid and I have to go immediately. Reason 2 ....this is where cawu or nbg rears its head. Folks may not be willing to join a mostly guild group knowing that loot will be awarded on an NBG basis.....not saying this is right just saying that some people probably look at this as a factor.
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:13 AM   #3
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I agree with the first part completely....First off, my guild is ghetto, and thus any guild group we have is ghetto. Ghetto is fun, the challenge is also very fun and i agree with Kogur completely on this.
Ont the second part, i agree and disagree. i KNow i am only lvl 56 and dont group with the majority of these top guilds, but i have grouped with my share, and the point Leldari made is a good one. You hate to see someone run without even given notice or anything because guild says so. I know most people out there use this to get out of a shitty group, but some of the bigger more powerful guilds this is actually true and it sucks. My reason 2, some of these people from "uber" guilds think that just because there is a tag with the uber title on it, it inately makes them better, and sometimes annoying to group with. It turns into a "i am better then you" battle.
And this doesnt go for most people, but there are those out there that have their ego solely based on their guild tag and these are the people i hate.....I know everyone from Magister/MF/DG/Affy/CE/RoD/ shit even AToF is better then me and i dont care, i just hate it when you have to tell me how much better you are.

Wow got off on my own rant, but the guild tag will effect the way people look at you, this is a fact of life and happens in the real world as well, it sucks to be judged like that but there is nothing you can do.........you cant even go guildless or people will say you are guildless cause you are a bad player or people dont like you.

Just my 2cp

btw hi Kog
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:55 AM   #4
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So now we're getting flamed because we'd prefer to spend time with our guildmates and friends than some random bunch of strangers? I'm sorry, I reserve the right to group with who I want, and if I turn down a pick up group it's not because of how good / bad you are, it's because I don't know you from Adam.
It's also possible you're not flagged for the zones I prefer to exp in or that we're working on guild flags, keys or quests, or camping spectral parchments or the lvl 65 spell runes, or any number of things that I consider a guild activity.
Whatever it is, if I receive a random offer for a pick up group from someone I've never heard of, the chances are I'd politely decline and it would have nothing to do with ego.
I should add that sometimes grouping with people I don't know from Adam CAN be fun, and I've met some great people in pick up groups. I just happen to like my guildmembers enough to prefer grouping with them.
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Old 12-19-2002, 03:42 AM   #5
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Default I disagree

First off, a pickup group will NEVER be as good as a group with people you constantly play with (guild group or friends). Those are people you played with alot and started to learn how you think and how to offset each other best.
Not saying pickup groups cannot be good. I've been in some nice ones. But they never come close to the group of own.

Group of own may vary for diffrent people and who they comfortable with.

And if i can choose between my group of own, or random pickup group in Plane of Valor, guess what i'll choose. I'll tell you it's not the random pickup group with ppl i never seen before.


Second. I am extremely picky with who i group with. If the group suck i leave. Sure it might be xp... but it'll be so slow i'm not having fun, but rather bang my head at the desk cause the group is so sucky. And yes there are definatly classes i dislike grouping with, and don't group if the group don't have others.

I also don't join a group who i feel don't have the essentials. Tank, Cleric, DPS.


I guess you have yet to see the potential of a group of own from reading your post.

I have seen clerics, enchanters, tanks, etc in certain guilds who are totally incompetent when it comes to grouping with random people, but immideatly turn into good skilled players when grouped with people they know. Jsut because they do not know what to expect and perhaps over/underestimate others.


I am not saying i or the people i group with are better then all of you.
I am saying the people i group with work better as a team then a random group.

Group of own = a group of friends who know how you play and you know how they play.


And like Frael said. You are essentially flaming whole of Emarr because we like to group with friends rather than random...
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Old 12-19-2002, 03:55 AM   #6
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I know everyone from Magister/MF/DG/Affy/CE/RoD/ shit even AToF is better then me and i dont care, i just hate it when you have to tell me how much better you are.
Thats a ridiculous attitude to have. Your guild tag is rarely an indication of your skill level in EQ or your worth as a person.

I would suggest that the majority of people in all the guilds you mentioned are average players who have access to above average equipment. Theres nothing magical about their abilities.

Read the requirements for membership on most of those guilds. Class, level and resists are generally the 3 most important factors. They may ask for players with skill but if its a needed class they'll take almost anyone.

Having said that, I have grouped with some exceptional players with uber guild tags floating above their heads. They are the exception though, not the rule.
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:04 AM   #7
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sorry guess i got caught up in what i was saying and didnt clearify. I am talking about gear wise, and the "i have killed so-and-so" factor. I hate getting in groups with people who are in a guild such as the menioned and some line of convo leads to a battle of one up man ship and shit like that......i know i stuck my foot in my mouth, i am good at that. But serioudly, to be in a guild as such said it takes some skill and some dedication, as a player, they most likely have learned much more then i have and know more in general about their given classes. I am only 56, so i have yet to experience the "high-end" game persay. So there a lot i truely dont know about being a warrior.
Qualifying someone as a better player is hard to do, i guess my wording was meak and my meaning misconstued.
Sorry
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:10 AM   #8
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EEEK, sorry
As to finish what i was saying i believe i was refering to getting groups and such and the fact that compared to all of the guilds mentioned and more, i am not going to be a worthy tank of sorts. but thats in comparison. I am my own player and i will play my warrior to the best that i know how.

But i am tired and done for the night. i am going to bed.
sorry if my rants lost touch, if they did its because i am on a 36 hour binge without sleep.
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:37 AM   #9
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Katty said:

I have seen clerics, enchanters, tanks, etc in certain guilds who are totally incompetent when it comes to grouping with random people, but immideatly turn into good skilled players when grouped with people they know.
I disagree a bit, there. Just because they look competent in an own group doesn't make them good players. How much does the own group adjust to account for their incompetence, for instance?

It's like only ever dancing with your own S.O. - you may look good out there on the floor, but turn into a bumbling, stumbling idiot if ever you switch partners. So, you're a crappy dancer.

If you really want to get more skilled at playing your character, playing all sorts of situations, and with all sorts of different people, is crucial - at least, that's what I personally believe. And there's no better way to get that than in a ghetto group.

I remember one of the times I had the most fun was doing some Tro Jeg in Scarlet Desert in a group consisting of: Bard (me), Druid, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard. Not your classical "perfect" group by any means, and yet we all had a complete blast, the pulls were fast and furious (some were really quite incensed by the time they got to me), and we all got exp.

As for the getting called away to raids thing - I wouldn't know, we're not a big enough guild to host our own raids, we get invited to others. And when we know we're going, we don't do pickup exp groups just beforehand. I agree that that's rude to those you pick up and then ditch.

Personally, I'll try anything, anywhere: last night was in PoD with a group consisting of Bard, Mage, Shaman, Wizard, Cleric. Was real fun to play, and I learnt a lot about how to keep aggro with a Bard (put away that Symphonic Saber, for a start hehe)...
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:46 AM   #10
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Interesting thing you mention groups who break apart because they don't want to hunt without a shaman or enchanter, or a druid or a cleric. I've been in groups with druid as a main healer, and a beastlord for slows. Granted though they were guild groups, and guild groups do tend to get along more well than pick up groups, but the group wasn't consisting of any really greatly equipped members. I equipped my Earthcaller just in case the Beastlord missed a slow, and our slow procs and spells really worked well together.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:36 AM   #11
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Just to add something here Phatty!

The group with the right dps can net more xp than a group that doesn't. I also prefer to group with my friends more than I group with people outside. I do both though when I'm in the mood.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:57 AM   #12
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Thinking about Zel's response and something Katty said about essential classes...

Personally I don't think there are any "essential" classes when it comes to XP groups, raids or groups with specific targets in mind yes but for general XP groups you can make good groups that get decent XP from most any class mix out there.... if the group gets the job done and isn't struggling to clear their camp before things repop then IMO it is a perfect group no matter what the class make up .

Heck when I'm making up groups, or even if I came into a pick up group if we need to get some replacements then I will always try to get who ever is available and has the class skills to replace who ever's leaving ... back before PoP came out I had a group up in the Village in VL, group set up was something like bard (me, level 60) + cleric + warrior + monk + ranger + rogue. First the warrior has to go, so the ranger tanked a little and we got a level 60 paladin. Then the cleric has to go, everyone starts panicing because without a cleric we're screwed right? For the next 2-3 hours or more we had a necro as main healer with paladin dropping in a couple of heals here and there, no one died and we killed a number of named kobolds (including Tpos twice, who was I think the hardest one there I think). Most of the group were not very confident (or happy for that matter hehe) about having a necro as main healer, hopefully they enjoyed the group and were a little more open to non-standard groups

I had another group once before in the Discos in OS (we had both discos covered), I can't remember the exact group make up but there was me (58 bard I think at that time), a 60 shaman as main healer, a wizard and some damage dealing classes possibly a rogue, sk or maybe a necro and a warrior (no paladin though) I think. We survived in there for maybe 4 hours, our shaman was using Torpor to heal us and had to cast it about 7 times during the whole time we were there but no other direct heals were used. Heh I've done the Crypt too with no tanks at all, group of casters, druid / shaman for heals and me and a rogue for melee and we still managed to kill everything (including the emp and some other names) well within the respawn time and were often sitting around picking up odd extras waiting for the ICGs to spawn hehe.

Yes I know I'm kinda bragging, but really those are just examples of non "perfect" groups that actually worked ... granted in PoP it's a lot more difficult to be so flexible since stuff hits so damn hard you are almost forced to have a cleric and some kind of slower. But alternative groups do work if people are actually willing to give them a try.

It's all about thinking outside the box
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:07 AM   #13
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Thinking about guild/friend groups versus complete pick up groups. I know lots of people who just can't stand and won't group in pick up groups, either not ever or after a bunch of crap from a last group, if you know what I mean. But I'll group with just about anyone in any grouping situation as long as I feel it'll work out (AKA, no groups of 5 warriors and a ranger for heals O.o That's too odd for me).
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:01 AM   #14
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I'll be the first to say I won't group with anyone but my guildees. Sorry, I guess my fault /shrug.

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Old 12-19-2002, 11:03 AM   #15
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:18 AM   #16
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this is an interesting topic, one that ive first hand experience in.

I'll always group with guild first, then look for the random01 pickup exp group.

the perfect group is tru, but only to the extent that it is the safest class configuration you can find for whatever the mob of choice may be.

For ppl that are skilled in thier class, however, the perfect group can be of many a differant type.

many people lately have said the same thing when invited to a group. what class, what lvls. some join, some dont. its also funny that later when they see that successful group is rakin in the exp that they didnt join at the start they resend a tell to be on a list, which I promptly tell them too bad soo sad.

Its too bad some ppl are to scared to take a chance, I mean sheeshe if it goes bad your going to DIE!! and at 60+ lvl its not like you have not died in the game before and PoP exp plus a click ress is going to cost you ONE kill max in exp.


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Old 12-19-2002, 11:38 AM   #17
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one of the best groups I had in vleks a while back.. had a rogue as main tank (was my char for a while, but on old MFer so he had some NToV drops and such.. and a very good AC) a druid as healer/DSer (Melakie.. yea he had some ok stuff too I guess..) and a wizard to deal a bit more damage... got the rogue most of the way through 58 in a night that way
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:36 PM   #18
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Ok,

to clear something up that seems to cause quite a mistaken view of waht I was saying. I am not condemning people that want to group with their guildmates.

I am condemning people who will only group with people from the top 5 guilds, feeling that they are the only ones skilled enough to play with.

Is it a guild group or a pickup group, WTF does it matter if it's my guild or not?!
When I said this, it was directed toward people who aer willing to group only if it's my guild in particular...because if it's DG or other top 5 they feel that the group will just be exponentially better, and I personally hate that attitude.
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:58 PM   #19
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My own personal example of an outside the box group that was absolutely great -- Me (60 wiz at the time), 60 Mage, 60 Necro, and high 50s druid were keeping the entire basement in PoJ clear right after the release of PoP. We got enough parchments so that everyone got 2 and tons of xp in the process without a traditional tank or cleric.

Just a side note, people really underestimate pets' ability to tank, druid/shaman abilities to heal, and necro's ability to mez/rez.
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:27 PM   #20
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I only group with people I know or who are friends with people I know. Call me stuckup or whatever but I've been around long enough and been burned by random_dumbass_LFG in some zone. Ive seen enough trains, CRs, loot arguements and gaEy assed R&F arguments on Emarr board to decide its not worth the trouble.

I happen to be in one of those guilds you listed too. Ya know, part of the whole guild thing is helping each other out. So, when a spot opens in my group, who am I going to ask? The shmuck who has forced me to turn off /ooc and /shout because of the assanine drivel they are spewing or the guild member who happened to get online and ask for a spot if any opened up. If noone in guild is LFG, I go down my friends list. If none there, we go shorthanded and wait. If we get to a point where we can't viably continue, I go jerk off with pictures of Katty or something similarly entertaining.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:14 PM   #21
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I've been in a PoV group with a ranger tanking, and bard (me) slowing. Yet I've had warriors leave when the enchie left because they won't tank without enchie/shaman slows. Their loss. Unfortunatly it's mine too. Necros and pallies can provide enough healing for many groups (though I'm not sure about many PoP zones - those mobs hit hard). Druids got an upgrade to Tunare's Renewel. I wish Shaman's got one to Kragg's Mending.

Non-optimal groups can rock. Pickup groups are the best way to meet great people and add them to your /friends list. Thankyou.
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Old 12-20-2002, 08:22 AM   #22
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Anyone who can't understand why some people don't want a group without an Enchanter/Shaman has probably not played a Cleric in the PoP zones especially. The high HPs and hard, fast hitting mobs of PoP, if not slowed, will reduce even the hardiest of tanks to a mana sink for a cleric in no time flat. I'm sure most people know this already but I have noticed that alot of players, particularly those that play tanks tend to not realize our mana requirements to keep you alive. I'm sure many Clerics have seen this happen before:

Tank_01 says: Lost cleric buffs...
Ranger_01 says: Me too. Need Symbol too.
etc, etc....
So you cast all that which brings you down to like 20% mana then you hear this almost immediately after.

Tank_01 says: Everyone GTG?
NowManalessCleric_01 says: Ummmm... not exactly.

See what I mean? Tanks often take for granted that it takes mana to heal. AND it takes LOTS of mana to heal when you're getting smacked by an unslowed PoP mob. That is why Clerics at least try to get a group with at least a slower. Without a slower I'll be OOM faster than you can say OUCH! Heh.
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Old 12-20-2002, 09:15 AM   #23
Kerrol The Fury
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I don't think I've been in a pickup group since right before Velious launch.

Point? I'am an anti-social motherfucker. Woe is me.
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:16 AM   #24
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Like I said before, I've been in awesome groups that have worked real well without an enchanter or shaman for slows and crowd controls, we've had a beastlord ord bard around for slows/mini-slows and some mana regen, and it worked out like any ol group. Sure beats the hell out of sitting around like "Okay... we have a druid... warrior... beastlord... bard... now we need a shaman or enchanter and cleric...", and ten hours later "We haven't moved or done anything since we got here, we need that shaman or enchanter and a cleric to move on..."

On a side note, I hate nasty greedy insecure folks who think you need a picture perfect group from the old world to do anything in this game to get around anymore. Because you don't. THE END.

And don't ask me why I threw in nasty and greedy. I'll start selling my book entitled "How to form and run an un-perfect group, based on old world and Kunark traditions, for those without hope, creativity, or imagination." All for $79.95 plus tax, shipping and handling, void where prohibited. It'll be one page thick.
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Old 12-20-2002, 04:55 PM   #25
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My "rant" is this...WHY can people not seem to even give odd-man out groups a shot?
Funny thing is sometimes those "odd-men" want the same group line-up. Minus one of course, to fit them in.
Say we have cleric tank druid 2 monks and a wizard, why can you not effectively hunt with that group?
What zone? Sometimes this wont work...Efficiently.
Oh it's a pickup group? No thanks, they are not in DG/Aff/Magi/MF/RoD, they must have no clue what they are doing and will get me killed repeatedly.
Well......Yeah. There's only one guild you mentioned that I did die multiple times with while grouped with. I really dont see a problem with that mentality. I do see a problem with people saying something like "No th4nks, no ub3r's in ur group!".
I can see them askin what classes I have, just to make sure we have some type of heals.
Sometimes people dont wanna get in on groups that are just getting going either. You've been in the position of having to wait a long time for more people to go lfg I'm sure, all that time not doing anything when you may have had a shot in a group already exping.

Look at me. I didnt say anything offensive.
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