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Old 06-30-2009, 05:44 AM   #1
Lith Ahntalon
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Default I just Don't Understand..

the love affair that people have with cop killers. Granted, some of these people are simply against the death penalty but still....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/29/...ref=newssearch
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:14 AM   #2
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Reading the story, which is the only information about the case I have, it sounds like there may be some doubt as to whether or not he is guilty. I don't really know enough to have an opinion on that.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:25 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lith Ahntalon View Post
the love affair that people have with cop killers. Granted, some of these people are simply against the death penalty but still....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/29/...ref=newssearch
No offense to you, Ini, and Brid...but I have more sympathy for them since I was blackballed from law enforcement for some unknown reason. Go go bad guys!
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:54 AM   #4
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Murderers should be put to death. With as little fanfare as possible. Glamorizing a murderer, be he a cop killer or not, is stupid.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:56 AM   #5
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Get me a justice system that doesn't wrongfully convict people of capital crimes and I'm with you on the death penalty. Until then, I just can't support it.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:25 AM   #6
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The article doesn't tell you much. Before screaming kill baby kill might want to look this one up.

He was convicted solely on eyewitness testimony, seven of the nine recanted and claimed the testimony they gave was coerced.

Of the two who didn't recant: one was first made two years later. The other was Coles.

The night of the killing Coles was the one who was arguing with the homeless guy. That was the fight the cop went to break up. Coles has admitted to having a .38 on him that night which he "lost" on the way to turning it in to police.

Earlier that night 4 other men were shot at leaving a party both men were at, also with a 38. They cleared Davis of that shooting, two of them were Coles neighbors.

Coles was heard bragging about killing a cop.

Coles house was never searched and he was never arrested or investigated according to wikipedia (which could easily be wrong about that).

I DONT know the facts. If he really did it, fry him. But be sure.

One of the problems with our justice system is that it allows us to spend years and millions on appeals where judges get to look over transcripts, but apparently no room to allow the new evidence to be viewed on its face.

Surely we can all agree that the appeals process is stupid and could stand a little revamping? Even if all I had was the article I'm not sure that I would be willing to overturn a conviction at appeal, but a new trial, especially if it means saving a few bucks on meaningless appeals to examine the same old evidence and transcripts, is really not out of the question.


For the record: wanting to see the real killer hang doesn't mean we love cop killers. It's silly to even think so.

Wanting to see just anyone hang whether its the actual killer or not is to me: tragic. Without knowing more, Coles looks guilty as hell, but its perfectly fine that he might be a cop killer and walks free as a bird as long as SOMEONE hangs for it right?
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:32 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Martigan View Post
No offense to you, Ini, and Brid...but I have more sympathy for them since I was blackballed from law enforcement for some unknown reason. Go go bad guys!
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That reminds me of someone eating a shit sandwich who is happy that it has 20% less shit.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:32 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
Get me a justice system that doesn't wrongfully convict people of capital crimes and I'm with you on the death penalty. Until then, I just can't support it.

So are you also against prison sentences?
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
So are you also against prison sentences?
Don't be an ass. You can set someone free who was wrongfully convicted (happens not infrequently, sometimes after many, many years inside). You can't bring them back to life. I'm not being idealistic. Justice isn't perfect. The guilty sometimes go free and the innocent sometimes serve time. But knowing the system doesn't always work, you really want to be frying people? "Gee, Sally and Timmy, sorry about your Dad. We had it all wrong...but, well, at least his name is clear now."
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:23 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
Don't be an ass. You can set someone free who was wrongfully convicted (happens not infrequently, sometimes after many, many years inside). You can't bring them back to life. I'm not being idealistic. Justice isn't perfect. The guilty sometimes go free and the innocent sometimes serve time. But knowing the system doesn't always work, you really want to be frying people? "Gee, Sally and Timmy, sorry about your Dad. We had it all wrong...but, well, at least his name is clear now."
So can you give them back the time you took from them as well?

Just following your smug little logical path.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
So can you give them back the time you took from them as well?

Just following your smug little logical path.
Nope, but they tend to get tonnes of money thrown at them.
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I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:27 AM   #12
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Yeah, that makes the prison rape seem SO much better...
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
Yeah, that makes the prison rape seem SO much better...
Better than being dead. Not much, but better.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:39 AM   #14
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The dead ones don't whine & complain about the injustice.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Veo View Post
Better than being dead. Not much, but better.
So it's OK to take time from someone in error? It's ok to subject them to abuse and humiliation? Is that the message here?
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
So it's OK to take time from someone in error? It's ok to subject them to abuse and humiliation? Is that the message here?
OK? No. Unavoidable? Yes. Short of just not convicting anyone of course, which would be silly. It's going to happen sometimes, there is just no way to have a 100% perfect system. As Horm said, you can at least free them if they are imprisoned, you can't bring them back to life if they are executed. That's exactly why I am against the death penalty myself. That is the only reason I am opposed to the death penalty in fact.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
Yeah, that makes the prison rape seem SO much better...

Hmmm...I'd retract what I said to Axgar about not taking money for sex if I were getting millions for the sex...I mean being wrongfully imprisioned
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I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:57 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
So can you give them back the time you took from them as well?

Just following your smug little logical path.
This is deliberately stupid, even for you.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
This is deliberately stupid, even for you.
Nope, just far beyond your ability to comprehend.

But hey! Go on and attack what you can't answer. That's Horm 101, isn't it?
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:01 PM   #20
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Comprehend what? That you're wasting my time trying to parallel a belief that an imperfect justice system shouldn't be empowered to mete out death as a punishment with a belief that the same system then shouldn't be empowered to mete out imprisonment as punishment?

As I said, you're being deliberately stupid. At some point I have to stop giving you the benefit of the doubt that it's deliberate and assume that you actually are a moron. We're getting close lately.
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:26 PM   #21
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This isn't black and white, hoss. You're famous for saying things like that. Beyond a reaonable doubt is the best we'll ever do, and that's a sad truth.

But guess what? There are people who don't deserve to live. And you'd have them living on our dime for the next 50 years or so. Niiiice!
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
This isn't black and white, hoss. You're famous for saying things like that. Beyond a reaonable doubt is the best we'll ever do, and that's a sad truth.

But guess what? There are people who don't deserve to live. And you'd have them living on our dime for the next 50 years or so. Niiiice!
Economics is a problem on BOTH sides of this discussion, since life in prison is cheaper for us the executions as they currently happen.


But you're right, it's not black and white. That is EXACTLY what he is saying. We don't know so we do the best we can. Obviously you have to punish someone if they are found guilty. If it later comes out that we were wrong we do our best to make it right. That's just how life in the world works.

ALL he is saying in opposition is that since mistakes happen its better to go for less permanant means of keeping them off the streets. I see no suggestion of not keeping murderers off the street.


MY problem is different. I don't really have a problem with the death penalty IF WE ARE SURE, although I think it should be cheaper. Bullets for example, are fairly cheap. So is a quick push off a cliff. Or a length of rope. We could even reuse the rope.

My problem is when people claim they want murderers to suffer when they seem perfectly willing to let murderers walk free as birds, just as long as SOMEONE pays, all is square. Doesn't work for me. I'd rather be sure we actually got the murderer.
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
This isn't black and white, hoss. You're famous for saying things like that. Beyond a reaonable doubt is the best we'll ever do, and that's a sad truth.

But guess what? There are people who don't deserve to live. And you'd have them living on our dime for the next 50 years or so. Niiiice!
Which way would you rather err? Again, are you going to volunteer for the job of telling somebody's kids that the justice system fucked up, sorry 'bout your dead dad? I'm not thrilled about the taxpayer resources that go into supporting the lowest of the low through a life sentence. But to cavalierly shrug off the execution of innocent men as collateral damage? Not on my conscience, thanks.
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:12 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AjTaliesen View Post
Economics is a problem on BOTH sides of this discussion, since life in prison is cheaper for us the executions as they currently happen.
I've heard that said many times before but guess I don't know the details. Are we talking just monetary expense? If so, how much do those chemicals cost that they inject with? What are the other expenses?

What about those cases where it gets to the final minute with the vic strapped to the table and all that jazz before a stay of execution?
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I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Davek View Post
I've heard that said many times before but guess I don't know the details. Are we talking just monetary expense? If so, how much do those chemicals cost that they inject with? What are the other expenses?

What about those cases where it gets to the final minute with the vic strapped to the table and all that jazz before a stay of execution?
this I don't know. I was regurgitating what I've heard. Never done math myself so really, it might just be untrue.
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