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Old 08-02-2007, 06:05 AM   #1
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Default Nanny's in full efect!

In England...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2183105.ece

Police are seeking powers to take DNA samples from suspects on the streets and for non-imprisonable offences such as speeding and dropping litter.

The demand for a huge expansion of powers to take DNA comes as a government watchdog announced the first public inquiry into the national DNA database.

There is growing concern among MPs and civil liberties groups about the number of children under 10 and young black men on the database — the biggest in the world. But a number of police forces in England and Wales are backing proposals that would add millions more samples to it.

The Association of Chief Police Officers gave a warning, however, that allowing police to take samples for non-recordable offences — crimes for which offenders cannot be imprisoned — might be perceived as indicative of “the increasing criminalisation of the generally law-abiding public”.

Support for an extension of police powers to take samples was disclosed yesterday in responses to a Home Office consultation paper that was published this year. “A number of respondents welcomed the ability to reduce the threshold, including to the extent of allowing for the taking of fingerprints, DNA and footwear impressions for non-recordable offen-ces for the purpose of offender identi-fication and searching databases,” said a Home Office paper summarising responses to the consultation.

It added: “The second issue relates to the taking of fingerprints, photographs and samples on the street. This was welcomed at an operational level as a means of increasing officer confidence in knowing who they are dealing with and enabling them to deal more effectively with the incident at the scene.”

Kath Mashiter, of Lancashire police, and Brian Pincher, of Norfolk police, called for officers to be allowed to take DNA and fingerprints from suspects outside the custody environment.

Inspector Thomas Huntley, of the Ministry of Defence police, supported “the taking of fingerprints, DNA and footwear impressions for non-recordable offences for the purpose of the offender identification and searching the database”.

Mr Huntley added: “While the increase of suspects on the database will lead to an increased cost, this should be considered as preferential to allowing a serious offender to walk from custody following arrest for a non-recordable offence.”

There are almost four million samples on the database, including more than 100 of children aged under 10, even though they have not attained the age of criminal responsibility. A further 883,888 records of children aged between 10 and 17, and 46 records of people aged over 90, are held on the database, which cost more than 300 million.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal, QC, the Attorney-General, admitted when she was a Home Office minister that three quarters of the young black male population would soon be on the DNA database.

The Human Genetics Commission, the Government’s independent DNA watchdog, yesterday announced the first public inquiry into the database. Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws, QC, chairwoman of the commission, said: “The police in England and Wales have powers, unrivalled internation- ally, to take a DNA sample from any arrested individual, without their consent. We want to hear the public’s views on whether storing the DNA profiles of victims and suspects who are later not charged or acquitted is justified by the need to fight crime.”

Lady Kennedy added: “The database has a preponderance of young men, with a third of black males currently on it. And anyone on it is there for life. On the other hand, a steadily increasing number of serious crimes, including murders and rapes, are being solved and criminals brought to book with its help. These are issues that need to be considered and we need to know what the public think.”

David Davis, the Shadow Home Secretary, said last night: “It is inconceivable that the powers of the police could be extended without a serious and substantive debate in Parliament. They have already encroached on people’s privacy without proper debate on this matter and this can go no further.”

A Home Office spokesman said: “The DNA database has revolutionised the way the police can protect the public through identifying offenders and securing more convictions.

“The consultation is about maximising police efficiency and ensuring that appropriate and effective safeguards are in place. No decisions have yet been made and any detailed proposals will be subject to a further public consultation next year."[/quote]
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:50 AM   #2
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Sounds more big-brother-ish than nanny-state to me, but semantics aside, I don't think we need to be databasing DNA like that.
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:35 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
Sounds more big-brother-ish than nanny-state to me, but semantics aside, I don't think we need to be databasing DNA like that.
England scares me. It really does. I hate seeing all the things being done "For the common good of all" over there. I think they said there's 1 camera over there for every 11 people at last count.
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:54 AM   #4
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The cameras in public places don't bother me that much. Cops can't be everywhere and they have helped solve certain crimes. It does make you worry about slippery slopes though. First speed trap cameras, then surveillance cameras in main squares, then cameras to catch people going through red lights (I'm ok through here), but at some point you worry about getting cited via mail for jaywalking at 1AM on your way out of the bar.
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:26 AM   #5
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Which means you operate under the theory that its not a crime if no one sees me doing it?

Its the use of this type of equipment for non legal purposes that bothers me. Tracking people who meet for political reasons. Marketing. Staring at my package. That kind of thing.
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ShardmoonVer.1 View Post
Which means you operate under the theory that its not a crime if no one sees me doing it?
Not at all, I'd just rather not see it used to enforce minor infractions that we all commit in the normal course of a day. Did you speed a little bit this morning on your way to work? I did. Not 30 miles over the limit, but 5 or 10, sure. Did you maybe neglect to signal a lane shift when nobody else was remotely near you on the highway? I probably do that from time to time. That's the stuff I don't really want enforced- and typically it isn't because no self-respecting cop wants to spend his time pulling you over for that type of crap. But if they could start automating it and dinging you via mail for these things, that's when I think they're using the technology for the wrong reasons.

I also have reservations about the sort of tracking you mentioned.
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:45 AM   #7
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There was good reason for "V for Vendetta" being set in England!!
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:43 AM   #8
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ShardmoonVer.1 View Post
Which means you operate under the theory that its not a crime if no one sees me doing it?

Its the use of this type of equipment for non legal purposes that bothers me. Tracking people who meet for political reasons. Marketing. Staring at my package. That kind of thing.
I didn't know they had the zoom lenses that powerful yet...
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:03 AM   #10
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He probably works for UPS....
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:27 AM   #11
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:29 AM   #12
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Who cares what england does?
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Old 08-02-2007, 11:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Axgar
Who cares what england does?
Two reasons.

One, what happens to our neighbors might eventually effect us. We are not alone on this chunk of rock. We actually want other countries to be viable places to live and work, because if they aren't, their people may eventually go looking for other places to live and work.

Like here.

That's not to say that England's people are undesirable or anything, but we can only feed and house so many people. We've already got millions of people that have fled to our country in search of better living and working conditions. It's called Mexico.

Two, because this board isn't restricted to US citizens. We've got a few Brits, a few Canadians, and a few Australians that post here regularly. They're probably sitting there wondering, "Who the hell cares about America?"
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Old 08-02-2007, 01:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
Two reasons.

One, what happens to our neighbors might eventually effect us. We are not alone on this chunk of rock. We actually want other countries to be viable places to live and work, because if they aren't, their people may eventually go looking for other places to live and work.

Like here.

That's not to say that England's people are undesirable or anything, but we can only feed and house so many people. We've already got millions of people that have fled to our country in search of better living and working conditions. It's called Mexico.

Two, because this board isn't restricted to US citizens. We've got a few Brits, a few Canadians, and a few Australians that post here regularly. They're probably sitting there wondering, "Who the hell cares about America?"

When did Drys move to England?

But that is the answer I wanted someone to post so that next time I hear someone say we should mind our own business here in the United States when it comes to other subjects I can refer ya back to here.
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Old 08-02-2007, 02:27 PM   #15
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Axgar read good.
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:33 PM   #16
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Gack! I said it before but it probably deserves repeating. If I wanted to be completely safe I would ask the government to put me in a cage and be done with it.
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Old 08-03-2007, 04:13 AM   #17
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I prefer owning a gun to being a castrated citizen living in a nanny state.
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Old 08-03-2007, 04:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alinusara View Post
Gack! I said it before but it probably deserves repeating. If I wanted to be completely safe I would ask the government to put me in a cage and be done with it.

Shep can arrange that for you with the bonus that you'd be treated better and be much safer than if it were done by the government.
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Everclear View Post
I prefer owning a gun to being a castrated citizen living in a nanny state.
But aren't you considering being just that? (Moving to England)
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:26 AM   #20
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Well we were, but my husband has fed clearance that might end up getting him a huge salary job here in Austin. That is something that we can't leverage in the UK, so we might stay for the $$$. We can't really pass up possibly doubling our incomes. We can just travel.
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:18 AM   #21
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Fingerprints are databased, why not DNA?

Originally Posted by Artical
On the other hand, a steadily increasing number of serious crimes, including murders and rapes, are being solved and criminals brought to book with its help.
Oh no, terrible!
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tuan00Dorf View Post
Fingerprints are databased, why not DNA?
I don't have a problem with keeping DNA profiles of convicted violent felons on hand- I do have a problem with databasing the non-criminal population. Mostly because I worry if that ever became standard that you'd eventually see the data used against consumers. "Sorry Mr. Smith, your health insurance just doubled because I see you have a genetic predisposition to Parkinson's Disease." "Sorry Mr. Smith, we can't hire you for this job because you have a genetic predisposition to bipolar disorder."
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Old 08-03-2007, 10:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune View Post
I don't have a problem with keeping DNA profiles of convicted violent felons on hand- I do have a problem with databasing the non-criminal population. Mostly because I worry if that ever became standard that you'd eventually see the data used against consumers. "Sorry Mr. Smith, your health insurance just doubled because I see you have a genetic predisposition to Parkinson's Disease." "Sorry Mr. Smith, we can't hire you for this job because you have a genetic predisposition to bipolar disorder."
Sorry Mrs. Smith, you aren't allowed to order a pizza this month... it's too likely to be bad for your cholesterol and you've gone over your fat intake quota (FIQ) for the month... Now would you like a nice lean broccoli salad instead? No... you can't have the sweet tea... Dessert? Hahahahahahaha
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Old 08-03-2007, 10:16 AM   #24
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Mr x mighta been adopted or orphaned and all growed up elsewhere's in some grand dislocationistic social turbulence. DNA will tell him who he/she/it/ is at least and treat his genetic disorder maybe even cure him, dump his family estate on his ass, pay out some huge insurance policy on his dead rels to him, credit his life's work in some found discovery he never came back to and simply forgot, ascend to some seat in teh nobility somewhars as teh closest descendant of some legitimate line thing. Not forgetting there's the possibilty genetic disorders and diseases will have a cure through genetic research and technology someday.

Those are reasons for considering a central database of dna, but I'd be inclined to wish the info was in the government domain from medical records, blood and tissue stuff, xrays, images. That way at least privacy laws would cover the misuse of personal information through unauthorised and inappropriate access by public servants. DNA collection and cataloging could be incorporated into normal vaccination programs for creating the central database. The project needs integration of all them comp networks and software, maybe patched in to network OS's, to concatenate and search, sort yada yada.

Eventually crime scene investigations shall identify forensic evidence and dna collected will be traceable to the identity with searched match tools downloading corollary data records on identified dudes. Whether or not possessing crime records. All shall be revealed.
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:25 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Misty
but I'd be inclined to wish the info was in the government domain from medical records, blood and tissue stuff, xrays, images. That way at least privacy laws would cover the misuse of personal information through unauthorised and inappropriate access by public servants.
Who's going to maintain this 'government domain' database, if not public servants?
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