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Old 07-06-2007, 10:15 AM   #51
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I hear echoes of Chiteng in Virtdeths last post. I r skeered.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:04 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Virtdeth
Was Lurikeen a homosexual that found God?
YES! Yes he was...
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:08 AM   #53
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Hormadrune, I don't understand the point you are trying to make with steadfast adherance to a set of moral convictions is not virtuous unto itself, in response to my point that living consistently within a set of morals is virtuous. "Virtue" is defined as "Conformity to a standard of right". Christianity has provided this former homosexual with such a standard. Is it that you disagree with his new standard of what is right and wrong?
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:39 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Virtdeth
Hormadrune, I don't understand the point you are trying to make with steadfast adherance to a set of moral convictions is not virtuous unto itself, in response to my point that living consistently within a set of morals is virtuous. "Virtue" is defined as "Conformity to a standard of right". Christianity has provided this former homosexual with such a standard. Is it that you disagree with his new standard of what is right and wrong?
My point is that consistency is not a positive unto itself. Virtue (intended loosely as "good trait") was a word I introduced to the conversation, which was probably a poor choice given the Bible thumpers bound to jump on that word.

Your initial statement, that I was objecting to:
we can't really bash him for being consistent.
I consistently let the grass get too long at my house. I assure you my wife does not find my consistency to be virtuous.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:45 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Article
God is regarded as an enemy by many in the grip of homosexuality or other lustful behavior, because He reminds them of who and what they truly are meant to be.
The enemy is not God. The enemy are people who think they know what this God of theirs wants and go around "reminding" everyone that their morality is supreme & absolute; and everyone not adhering to that standard is a sinner and wrong.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:51 AM   #56
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Hormadrune, I thought I clarified my point that he was being consistent with his new Christian moral view? I will admit that I was wrong with what I wrote earlier, since you have proven that somebody can bash him for being consistent with his new found religious beliefs.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Virtdeth
Hormadrune, I thought I clarified my point that he was being consistent with his new Christian moral view? I will admit that I was wrong with what I wrote earlier, since you have proven that somebody can bash him for being consistent with his new found religious beliefs.
I could pity him for subscribing to a misguided brand of "christianity", sure. And yeah, bashing someone for their wackjob beliefs is something I'm more than willing to do. Welcome to the internet! Be careful, there are ideas in here!

Again, there is no virtue in consistency when one is consistently wrong.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:18 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Again, there is no virtue in consistency when one is consistently wrong.
That is an oxymoron.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Virtdeth
That is an oxymoron.
How so?
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:28 PM   #60
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There is no virtue at all in being wrong: consistent or not.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Virtdeth
There is no virtue at all in being wrong: consistent or not.
I don't really disagree with that. That isn't at odds with the statement you called oxymoronic though.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
..:: Quote ::..
All that talk about how homosexuality keeps you from discovering your inner self might've been true for him because he was using it to escape reality, but it might not be true for, say, someone who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's gay, gay, gay.
..:: End Quote ::..

This man was the poster child, literally, for the pro-gay movement. Everything ever said by him in regard to his homosexuality was endorsed by him. If what you are saying is true, then there is a very likely possibility that many men and women are out there claiming to be gay.. but who truly are not.
So what? Sure there are probably lots of people claiming to be gay because they like that lifestyle. That doesn't mean there aren't still many who truly are gay.

And conversely, it is likely that there are many men and women claiming to be straight... but who truly are not.

Nothing changes either way.
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Tuan00Dorf
So what? Sure there are probably lots of people claiming to be gay because they like that lifestyle.
Lifestyle is such an interesting word...what exactly is meant by that and do all gays adhere to it?
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:28 PM   #64
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FYI that Biblical quote was not God or Jesus. It was a zealot. It might as well have been Pat Robertson. Or what? You think people like him are NEW?

now concerning the virgins (the marriageable [c]maidens) I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion and advice as one who by the Lord's mercy is rendered trustworthy and faithful.
He reminds the reader several times throughout the passage that he is speaking his own opinion, and not speaking for God or Jesus.

At least he puts in disclosure statements... which are unfortunately omitted by agenda pushers and false prophets.

Oh.. and he also explains his view of passing such judgements

12What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment [passing censuring sentence on them as the facts require]?

13God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside. Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church].
Judge those in your church... or throw those out you deem unfit... but it is not your place to go out judging everyone. You are not God. You are fit only to judge whether someone is of the same belief as you. You are inadequate to judge the value of outsiders.
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:35 PM   #65
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Didn't his parents teach him not to be a quitter?
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:41 PM   #66
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I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Davek
Lifestyle is such an interesting word...what exactly is meant by that and do all gays adhere to it?
Well I didn't mean lifestyle as in the exaggerated "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy" sort of way. By lifestyle it could be any aspect of it, but more specifically I am referring to the sex part.

For example, many girls (in particular) will call themselves lesbians because they enjoy messing around with other girls. (who wouldn't!?) However they would never marry another girl, or actually fall in love with one.. they simply enjoy the sex. That's what I mean by enjoying the lifestyle, but not actually being gay.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:10 PM   #68
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All:

There are many very good quotes in here. Many very good comments... I do not feel like addressing them all...

Brigiid: My whole point is that this particular guy's position on the issue IS and or could very well be an example of many, if not most, homosexuals in the free and Western world.

EC: I am not saying that he is every homosexual. What I am saying is that I believe that many kids and young adults are lead astray by a LIE....much like our friend in the article claims to have been.

Kanya: It doesnt matter if he is hetero or not. What he is saying is that he is NOT homosexual and he gives many reasons why he chooses not to be. Thats all that really matters. We must then take that info, given his insight and personal and pro-longed experience on the issue, and weight it and see if it has any merit. Again, given his credentials, I'd say it does indeed have merit.

Horm: Bro...may I call you "bro"? .. perhaps I have or have not earned enough of your respect to call you that... anyway, Bro.. What you point out is that "virtuous" is relative. ..and you couldnt be more correct. AQ thinks that blowing up the innocence is virtuous. We think that if innocent die in war, the greater cause is virtuous. Again, I agree with you. However, the reason why many come to God is because they feel and believe that they have indeed found the Truth. The final and absolute Truth that is no longer subjective and is no longer relative.

Dont you believe that what you believe is truth and absolute? Surely you do or otherwise you wouldnt reply. You will find, however, that your "truths" will very, change and adjust as you get older... is there virtue in that? No... Otherwise come fuck me, give me $100, then tell your wife it never happened. Virtue cannot be associated with something that is subjective and relative. The only way we agree with virtue is that it is Truth and Absolute. Right?
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
No... Otherwise come fuck me, give me $100, then tell your wife it never happened.
What would you do if he took you up on that?
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Tuan00Dorf
Well I didn't mean lifestyle as in the exaggerated "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy" sort of way. By lifestyle it could be any aspect of it, but more specifically I am referring to the sex part.

For example, many girls (in particular) will call themselves lesbians because they enjoy messing around with other girls. (who wouldn't!?) However they would never marry another girl, or actually fall in love with one.. they simply enjoy the sex. That's what I mean by enjoying the lifestyle, but not actually being gay.


this is what i think this guy is doing. i know rheaton disagrees with me, which is fine..he's taking something from it different than what i'm taking from it.

i think if he still defined himself by orientation, he would probably still consider himself to be gay. however, he no longer defines himself that way and appears to be fully turning his back on sexuality in order to negate his homosexual preferences. so he's like the opposite of your fantasy gay sex girls...instead of not being gay and living the lifestyle (sexually), he is gay and not living the lifestyle.

personally, i think the root of his revelation is that LUST is the problem. that any sex born of lust is the problem, and he made a connection between his homosexuality and lust that he could not live with in his new-found convictions. does that mean he is no longer gay? not necessarily, and he doesn't say he's not, only that he will have no part of the gay lifestyle. he only has room in his life for god now.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:37 PM   #71
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Everclear, Paul, the writer of the Biblical passage I quoted, is considered one of the Apostles of the Church by most of Christianity today. Jesus gave his Apostles authority to speak on his behalf regarding teachings of the Christian faith. I respect Paul's position in the body of Christ. I don't think comparing Paul the Apostle with Pat Robertson is fair.

Concerning the passage you cite, Paul was referring to his own celebacy. (1 Corinthians 7:1-7) He was assuring the church at Corinth that celebacy was not the command of God, but his own choice and that in his opinion it was better than marriage. Paul is very clear that there is such a thing as sexual immorality and homosexual sex happens to be immoral. (1 Corinthians 6)

As a Christian I don't get to pick and choose what teachings of the New Testament are considered God's word. I accept that the Bible in its current form is the inspired word of God and has come to us through the ages by an act of providence: lumps and all. (2 Timothy 3:16)

I do agree with you about passing judgement on others and I believe that the gospels show us a Jesus that is everyone's friend. He wasn't bothered by being seen with prostitutes and thieves. Yet being a friend to a person isn't the same as condoning their behaviors. I don't find anywhere in the gospels Jesus condoning Mary's harlotry, since as the Son of God he brought grace and not the law.

Sin hasn't become lawfull under grace. For a good number of Bible believers homosexual sex is a sin. Christians don't have to pass judgement, since the word of God is abundantly clear on the topic: God has already made the judgement. Christians are free to pass on the gospel message without judgement. Christians befriend people and don't have to "thump" them about sin. That is the job of the Holy Spirit and not mine as a Christian. I can't bring the conviction of sin to another sinner. As a sinner all I can do is share my faith and what I believe is truth.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Tuan00Dorf
Well I didn't mean lifestyle as in the exaggerated "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy" sort of way. By lifestyle it could be any aspect of it, but more specifically I am referring to the sex part.

For example, many girls (in particular) will call themselves lesbians because they enjoy messing around with other girls. (who wouldn't!?) However they would never marry another girl, or actually fall in love with one.. they simply enjoy the sex. That's what I mean by enjoying the lifestyle, but not actually being gay.
Fair enough. Only reason I asked is that my brother is legally married to another man, lives the "white picket fence" suburbia life and doesn't live the image that is conjured up when someone mentions "gay lifestyle".

Generally when someone says "gay lifestyle" I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people might get the image of barflies, ravers, queens(drag or just "nelly") etc...
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:41 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Brigiid: My whole point is that this particular guy's position on the issue IS and or could very well be an example of many, if not most, homosexuals in the free and Western world.
That's quite a stretch... "if not most"? So because one person comes out and says "whoops, I'm not really gay.. I just liked the sex at the time!", that means that maybe most of the homosexuals in the free and Western world are not really gay?

Why don't we just make the exact opposite argument then.. what about the people who have been in straight marriages with kids for many years then finally admit to themselves they are gay and leave their spouse to be with someone of the same sex so they can be happy? Should we also say that perhaps most heterosexuals are in the same position and are really homosexual?

You are picking an example on one side and acting as if the exact reverse doesn't happen. It does, and for any argumentative purpose they essentially cancel each other out.. so I don't know why you are trying to draw any conclusions from this.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:45 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Davek
Fair enough. Only reason I asked is that my brother is legally married to another man, lives the "white picket fence" suburbia life and doesn't live the image that is conjured up when someone mentions "gay lifestyle".

Generally when someone says "gay lifestyle" I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people might get the image of barflies, ravers, queens(drag or just "nelly") etc...
Totally understandable... not the best choice of words on my part!
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:50 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Horm: Bro...may I call you "bro"? .. perhaps I have or have not earned enough of your respect to call you that... anyway, Bro.. What you point out is that "virtuous" is relative. ..and you couldnt be more correct. AQ thinks that blowing up the innocence is virtuous. We think that if innocent die in war, the greater cause is virtuous. Again, I agree with you. However, the reason why many come to God is because they feel and believe that they have indeed found the Truth. The final and absolute Truth that is no longer subjective and is no longer relative.
Here in lies one of your fundamental problems though. You assume that your "Truth" (and the whole capitalization things is really beyond fucking pretentious) is the end of the road for all who seek enlightenment. That's baffling to me- the degree of conceit involved in that is simply off the charts.

Dont you believe that what you believe is truth and absolute? Surely you do or otherwise you wouldnt reply. You will find, however, that your "truths" will very, change and adjust as you get older... is there virtue in that? No... Otherwise come fuck me, give me $100, then tell your wife it never happened. Virtue cannot be associated with something that is subjective and relative. The only way we agree with virtue is that it is Truth and Absolute. Right?
This is a character flaw of yours- the insistence that so much of life is black or white, right or wrong. People who view life in this way are invariably simpletons or religious and frequently religious simpletons. I don't think you're a simpleton, but I do think you subscribe to a dangerous brand of religion that ignores empirical evidence on the basis of faith. As trite as it sounds, life is mostly shades of gray. Failure to acknowledge that takes either ignorance or denial.

I'm really confused by your offer though. For one thing I have no idea what it's meant to prove. For another, I'm stuck somewhere between flattered and horrified. One thing I'm absolutely sure of though, is that you're not my type and I'll respectfully pass
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