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Old 09-07-2009, 06:20 AM   #1
Lith Ahntalon
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Default Socialized Medicine

It would seem the argument is timeless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs
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Old 09-07-2009, 10:14 AM   #2
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The difference is, that nowadays an alarming portion of the left is now actually open and completely unashamed about the desire for socialism.
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:48 PM   #3
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I think the government should only be involved to make sure everyone has money for health care, not to run it themselves.

I've grown to see the same view for education. Give everyone the money your already spending and let the market decide. You will end up with better education.
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
I think the government should only be involved to make sure everyone has money for health care, not to run it themselves.

I've grown to see the same view for education. Give everyone the money your already spending and let the market decide. You will end up with better education.
vouchers? An unexpectedly republican idea.

I think I agree with it. Although I do support a "public option" for schools. If for no other reason than because the officials are elected.
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Old 09-07-2009, 11:34 PM   #5
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I was always against the 'voucher' program before because I thought it was in addition to public schools. I thought it was just a 'cut and run' tactic and leaving those in public schools to rot. I also thought it was a tactic to allow public funded religious schools.

If all public education was done away with, and government vouchers were given for parents to choose a good non-religious private school to attend, I would be all for it.

I am becoming increasingly more libertarian and less socialist in that i now see the government cant be trusted to run a lemonade stand, they don't need to be running education/healthcare. I still adhere to my socialistic policy for progressive income tax to help pay the costs of these things though.
Originally Posted by ajtaliesen
vouchers? An unexpectedly republican idea
I also agree with the republicans plans for health care, but their voices are being stamped out by the democrats.

A $5,800 tax credit for families to buy private health care, severing health insurance from your place of employment(why is it there in the first place?), and allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines are all good ideas.

I also heard it said that with car insurance, we don't expect it to pay for our oil changes or new tires. Why do plans always have to cover everything including general doctors visits and meds. Some people really only want it for big emergencies and procedures in case they get cancer or have to have a surgery or something.

The policy of rejecting applicants because of preexisting conditions needs to a solution as well.
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:47 AM   #6
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While "death panels" and such seem to be stealing the headlines, some big & real unanswered questions are going to be how the government deals with "irresponsible" health behavior. If smoking leads to increased health risks, will the government make it illegal? Or at least require the smoker to essentially give up their right to health care? Likewise for obesity. If someone's irresponsible behavior is leading to higher bills for the taxpayer, there's no reason why the taxpayer can't say "Cut it out, or you're cut off".

And if drug legalization ever does go through, a lot of the drugs to significant long-term damage to the heart & other organs (of course, alcohol does too - but some studies show advantages to very moderate drinking - but I could see there being a hefty tax that kicks in after the second glass of wine - perhaps some sort of ration system where you can only buy X amount of alchohol per month).

If nothing else, the government would have to be looking at increased taxes on things that they believe to them having to pay more (it would be almost irresponsible if they didn't). Various states/cities have looked at sugar taxes, junk food taxes, etc.

Realistically, in a couple of years, the government's going to have one hell of bill due. It's got to find that money somewhere. Just like lottery tickets were the rage a decade ago for "Taxing the stupid", I suspect the fat & drunk are next in line.

Dean Wormer for President in 2016!
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:23 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Heretic
I think the government should only be involved to make sure everyone has money for health care, not to run it themselves.
Why, exactly, should the government make sure you have money for health care?
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:07 AM   #8
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There's also the issue of what happens if you take the money that your mommy gave your for a healthy lunch and spent it on junk food,, err, I mean the money the government/taxpayers gave you for health care and spend it on beer and porn. I guess that's why Obama wanted us to tune for a "very special back-to-school speech", so we'd know not to do this, because we'd wind up with a tummy ache (and then the death panels would come....)
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:02 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Why, exactly, should the government make sure you have money for health care?
I would state that as "There should be something in place to allow everyone access to basic and emergency health care" and leave the money part out.

The reality is that we need differing amounts of access to health care throughout our live. As babies and then as children, there is the societal expectation that you are getting adequate medical review (including vaccinations, checks for common disorders like deafness, autism, eyesight, etc.) that work for the "common good." You want healthy kids in school. As young adults, you need less general access to health care (although some argue that everyone should do things like the early checkup.) Women need more access than men, do to their reproductive issues. As you cross into middle age, more things start to go wrong, so more access. Finally, as senior citizens, end of life conditions once again require significant medical demands. The one caveat to that is the unpredictable - accidents and/or catastrophic illnesses that affect a very small portion of the general population, but are extremey costly.

The health insurance piece of this really comes into play when you have medical expenses that will potentially bankrupt you. Because of the way risk is "managed" (actually avoided in most cases) by insurance companies, this often becomes the REAL health care issue. People are forced to go broke before they get any sort of help. It seems stupid to me for this to happen, because in most cases it is better to keep a family financially viable and support their medical issues rather than force them onto the dole so Uncle Sam can cover everything.

Part of this is the insurance company - lawyer - government conspiracy to fragment the industry as much as possible to maximize profits. A similar situation was in effect before the auto industry went national. Rates overall are now much more competitive as unusual risks can be spread over a much wider risk pool. On the other hand, profits have been reduced because of the competition factor. Not to say these companies aren't making tons of money, just that competition keeps it at least a little in line, whereas in a fragmented market, it is much easier to get a monopoly hold on their insured.

My vote is we remove regional restrictions on insurance companies and let them compete nationally and lets see what happens (besides lawyers and politicians complaining that the pools of money they get are going to shrink somewhat.)
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
There's also the issue of what happens if you take the money that your mommy gave your for a healthy lunch and spent it on junk food,, err, I mean the money the government/taxpayers gave you for health care and spend it on beer and porn. I guess that's why Obama wanted us to tune for a "very special back-to-school speech", so we'd know not to do this, because we'd wind up with a tummy ache (and then the death panels would come....)
Looks like my powers of prophecy are staggering - why just today, Obama says...
President Barack Obama hinted he could support a "sin tax" on fizzy drinks to help lower high rates of US obesity, but admitted it would be an uphill battle against corporate and economic interests.

"I actually think it's an idea that we should be exploring," Obama said in the forthcoming issue of Men's Health, regarding potential taxes levied on soft drinks such as colas and other sugar-filled products.

"There's no doubt that our kids drink way too much soda. And every study that's been done about obesity shows that there is as high a correlation between increased soda consumption and obesity as just about anything else," he said in excerpts released ahead of the magazine's mid-September publication.


The president -- reported to be one of the fittest US commanders-in-chief in decades -- stressed that "obviously there is resistance on Capitol Hill to those kinds of sin taxes.

"Legislators from certain states that produce sugar or corn syrup are sensitive to anything that might reduce demand for those products," he said.

In addition, "people's attitude is that they don't necessarily want Big Brother telling them what to eat or drink, and I understand that," Obama added.

"It is true, though, that if you wanted to make a big impact on people?s health in this country, reducing things like soda consumption would be helpful."

His comments come just six weeks after US health experts told a national conference on obesity in Washington that a significant portion of increased caloric intake in recent decades can be directly attributed to soft drinks and other sugared foods and drinks.

The president is currently embroiled in the most compelling domestic priority of his presidency, a reform of the US health care system.

Obama, who said he works out nearly every day in order to clear his head and reduce stress, described himself as "a healthy eater" with low blood pressure.

He keeps a bowl of apples in the Oval Office. "It was our first step toward health reform," he said.

Two-thirds of American adults are obese or overweight and obesity-related illnesses cost the United States nearly 150 billion dollars a year, health officials were told at the July conference.
I tend to drink only diet sodas myself (way too much sugar in the regular stuff), but it's to be expected this is just the start.
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Looks like my powers of prophecy are staggering - why just today, Obama says...
May I have the next set of winning Powerball numbers, plz?
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen View Post
May I have the next set of winning Powerball numbers, plz?
Well, in some lottery somewhere today, the numbers 1-5-9-22-29 are going to pay off for something.
My powers are really vague about which lottery it is, I'm afraid.
Predicting politicans screwing over taxpayers - that they tend to be dead on for.
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:29 PM   #13
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Guess I better cancel the order for my new Lexus.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by wildane
Why, exactly, should the government make sure you have money for health care?
To promote the general welfare? Because its the right thing to do? Because its immoral to not do that while we allow some to make billions and have multiple houses throughout the country?
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:32 PM   #15
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On a further note i have no problems with sin tax on junk food. Maybe it will make me stop. :P
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
To promote the general welfare? Because its the right thing to do? Because its immoral to not do that while we allow some to make billions and have multiple houses throughout the country?
Yeah, screw those guys! They didn't earn it after all!
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:16 PM   #17
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They earned it due to the way our system is set up. The system is set up so that some don't have the money to pay for certain procedures. Not having those procedures leads to the deaths of Americans. By us not doing anything, we are essentially signing their death warrants.
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:55 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
They earned it due to the way our system is set up.
The money they made? That's only because of "the system"??? So they just were lucky? Years of hard work didn't matter? The fact that they went to school and worked harder than their peers didn't matter?
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
They earned it due to the way our system is set up. The system is set up so that some don't have the money to pay for certain procedures. Not having those procedures leads to the deaths of Americans. By us not doing anything, we are essentially signing their death warrants.
Since you've signed the death warrants of innocent people, doesn't that make you a murderer? (going by your comments in threads on capital punishment) Are you going to turn yourself into the police, or do you believe your own arguments to be bullshit?
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:14 PM   #20
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"There's no doubt that our kids drink way too much soda. And every study that's been done about obesity shows that there is as high a correlation between increased soda consumption and obesity as just about anything else," he said in excerpts released ahead of the magazine's mid-September publication.
Do we even notice anymore when people just make science up because it sounds good?


And this whole thing has gone so far around the fucking bend I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. You work too hard you need to pay more, so we can give everything you have to those who didn't. We've accepted that one for a while. Now it's: you want to take five minutes out of the day to enjoy a soda, or a burger, you should be required to pay extra so we can use it for more fuckhead programs, like a new library named after a senator, or a study to determine if college students like beer?

This government has lost it's damn mind.

I think this will pass too. With ease.


But for the record, OBama is now officially just as bad as Bumbles. Sure it's the evil corporations, faceless fat white moneybags who will fight this, because it couldn't possibly be ordinary Americans saying "Will you just fuck off and let me drink a god damn coke you nazi fuckheads?"


For the record, I don't know anyone who drinks as much soda as me. Seriously. No one I know. I always have a coke. I'm drinking one now.

At 34 my age and waist size are the same, only two inches more than I had in high school and I'm not even very active. I'm sure I could still kick a politicians ass in a fight. As long as that's true I think they should take their fucking health laws and shove them up their freedom hating, busybody, hypocritical, lying, FAT asses.

and die.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by fafnermorell
Since you've signed the death warrants of innocent people, doesn't that make you a murderer? (going by your comments in threads on capital punishment) Are you going to turn yourself into the police, or do you believe your own arguments to be bullshit?
WTF are you talking about? I'm the one advocating we save them, you guys are the ones wanting them to fuck off and die if they have no money.
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
WTF are you talking about? I'm the one advocating we save them, you guys are the ones wanting them to fuck off and die if they have no money.
Read what you wrote: "We are essentially signing their death warrants". You're included in "We". You're as much a part of this as anyone - even you subconciously know that, which is why you said "We" rather than "you".
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
WTF are you talking about? I'm the one advocating we save them, you guys are the ones wanting them to fuck off and die if they have no money.
That's the real irony. You think you're trying to save people when you're the worst thing out there for them. But hey, I'll give you credit for meaning well.
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:17 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Heretic
To promote the general welfare?
Now that's ironic: rallying for support of a new social program by inadvertently bringing up one that is constantly being abused.
Originally Posted by Hereic
Because its the right thing to do?
No, the right thing to do would be for everybody to take care of their own health care. Can't afford medicine for your baby? Should have thought of that before you had the little shit machine. Why bother teaching our children personal responsibility if they're just going to be absorbed into the collective when they grow up?
Originally Posted by Heretic
Because its immoral to not do that while we allow some to make billions and have multiple houses throughout the country?
What Drysdale said.
Originally Posted by Heretic
On a further note i have no problems with sin tax on junk food. Maybe it will make me stop. :P
Yeah, you say that now. I thought the same thing about smoking, but it didn't stop me from spending $50 a week on cigarettes.
Originally Posted by Heretic
The system is set up so that some don't have the money to pay for certain procedures.
You wanna talk about billionaires? OK, let's talk about Bill Gates. I'm fairly certain he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth. But, he had an idea. Granted, his idea was to rip off someone else's idea, but an idea nontheless. Now, he's one of the richest men on the planet. The "system" is set up so that anybody can do that. It is by no means the fault of the rich that some people do not take advantage of that.
Originally Posted by FafnerMorell
I tend to drink only diet sodas myself (way too much sugar in the regular stuff), but it's to be expected this is just the start.
Kinda makes you wonder if the tax will be the same on diet drinks as on regular. You know, whenever he has an epiphany, he should really run that by someone else before just blurting it out.
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Old 09-09-2009, 01:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Yeah, you say that now. I thought the same thing about smoking, but it didn't stop me from spending $50 a week on cigarettes.
Sin taxes. We're selling indulgences now. You have to pay the government a fee if you want to engage in "unsanctioned" activity.

Nice precedent. Suddenly those dystopian 60's sci fi writers don't seem as far fetched as they once did.
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