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Old 11-10-2002, 01:52 PM   #1
Lurikeen
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Default A question for Chiteng...

Ok, the question and answer I am about to ask will lilkely bore the hell out of most, but I shall ask anyways.

Chit, you quote Voltaire and a French Priest with the following "'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'".

I am a bit intrigued by the quote you offer attributed to a French Priest.

What do you think that quote means, exactly? Are you a man of faith Chiteng?

I confess, that I don't have belief in any brand of god, but I do have faith. I think that a life without faith is one without hope. I could care less what faith is put into, but those lacking faith have a long tortuous life ahead of them.
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Old 11-10-2002, 02:30 PM   #2
Ice Weasel X
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I had a fortune cookie once that read, "Never explain.  Your friends won't need it, and your enemies won't believe you anyway."  I guess it's a paraphrased version of the same point of view.
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Old 11-10-2002, 03:02 PM   #3
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Ice, there is a difference between offering an explanation of one's hope and one's explanation of hope not ringing true with many.
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Old 11-10-2002, 03:04 PM   #4
Aishen L`Fey
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i'm still trying to decide whether i should be flattered or not...
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Old 11-10-2002, 03:05 PM   #5
Aishen L`Fey
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haha wrong post /smack. that was meant for the guess chiteng's age thread which i'm too lazy to go repost now. kinda forgot how at least 5 threads per r&f page involve 'chiteng' in the title.
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Old 11-10-2002, 03:37 PM   #6
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Lurikeen, I was just saying that's probably where the fortune cookie quote came from.  It's one of the few that's stuck in my head because it sounded more interesting than the vast majority of them.

My favorite combination of all time: I went to a Chinese restaurant with my dad.  He had a fortune that said, "Your companion has a surprise for you."  I handed him mine, which read, "Your companion will pay the bill."
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Old 11-10-2002, 05:08 PM   #7
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Default re: Lurikeen

In 1858 during the reign of Napoleon the third:
In the city of Lourdes:

The police came to arrest Bernadette Soubirous, a very young
French teenager. They were stopped at the door to her house
by the leading cleric of Lourdes. He told them 'Load well your guns, for your path lies over my dead body!' It is this cleric that
I quote. I have been unable to verify his name.

My particular brand of faith is absolute, like everything else I do.
But I dont prothletyze. When I was your ages I didnt care at all.
All denominations looked equally silly. I was a die hard existencialist. But the thing is, that slowly over time you see
your old freinds start to die. At first by accident, and slowly
disease, and finally the chill of old age. You gain a sence of your own mortality, even if you dont wish to. One day it dawns on you that sooner or later, you too will face death. Even you Lurikeen
will have these odd facts of life bite you in the ass. But to the
normal population of EQ, I would never even try to discuss such
things. They are children, let them play.
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'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

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Old 11-10-2002, 05:23 PM   #8
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Found this on a search for a few keywords:
"'For Those Who Believe, No Explanation is Necessary...'
...for those who do not, no explanation is possible." This title card at the beginning of "The Song of Bernadette" prepares us for what is to come in this magnificiently crafted depiction of the real-life drama of Bernadette Soubirous. This film has an extremely strong cast. One of my favorite scenes doesn't even include Jennifer Jones; it's when the agnostic doctor played by Lee J. Cobb makes his report to the mayor and his council. His description of questioning and examing Bernadette at the grotto demonstrates his own internal conflict between science and the faith he claims not to have. Vincent Price adds his usual sarcasm in just the right amounts to the mix as well. Ann Revere turns in an exceptional job as Bernadette's worn-out mother, struggling for some kind of dignity in the midst of the squalor the family find themselves in at the movie's start. The leading cleric of Lourdes is presented by Charles Bickford, who is skeptical of Bernadette, even telling her to ask the Lady for a specific miracle to be performed; when the miraculous spring appears he learns to curb his own pride. His best line is when he defends Bernadette against police who have come to arrest her, "Load well your guns, for your path lies over my dead body! Gladys Cooper gives us an almost inhuman performance as the nun who refuses to accept Bernadette's story. Her eyes have the cold intensity of a medieval statue, and she is just as unbending. She finally has one great scene when she rebukes Bernadette, and we understand what her problem is, that she cannot accept Bernadette's being chosen as the visionary when she the nun has observed every fast and mortification she can, only to have no tangible reward. And then, when Bernadette reveals her long secret physical illness, the nun recoils in horror, dashing off to the chapel to beg God's forgiveness. That conversion experience is probably the most powerful single scene in the movie. And of course, there's Jennifer Jones herself. If she hadn't been as good as she was, this movie would have suffered tremendously, excellent supporting cast notwithstanding. She conveys such childlike simplicity yet underlying it is the unshakable conviction that she sees what she sees. Not a false note in the performance. The one thing I would have changed with the movie is the apparition itself. I've learned from reading other reviewer's comments that the Lady is played by Linda Darnell--I'll check my copy later and see if I recognize her. However, were I to have made this movie, I wouldn't have shown the vision at all. This movie is about faith, and the ability of Bernadette to convince others about what she alone saw. In keeping with that opening title card about belief, I don't think the audience should see anything either. They too should be in the role of the townspeople: can you believe what this ignorant girl is telling you about the grotto of Lourdes? I don't know whether Jennifer Jones had anything to interact with when she was filming these scenes, whether Linda Darnell was in place or added later, but if we saw her talking to thin air, then we would have to decide whether she was a liar, a madwoman, or as the bishop puts it to Charles Bickford, "that most rare of beings". Watching "The Song of Bernadette" is always an emotional experience for me--I hope those who have yet to see it will share that sentiment."
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Old 11-10-2002, 05:26 PM   #9
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Default re: Ice

But it doesnt give his name.
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'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

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Old 11-10-2002, 05:45 PM   #10
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Nope, I'd noticed that, also.  Where did you initially hear about it?  So far most of what I've found leads back to that movie, and sites devoted to Soubirous don't say much at all.
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Old 11-10-2002, 05:48 PM   #11
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Default re: I assume the book

It seems that I have always knows that line. I assume I read the
book at some point. The movie was made from the book.
Probably at the age of 13, when you cant possibly understand the concepts, but you easily remember the words.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
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Old 11-10-2002, 06:06 PM   #12
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All denominations looked equally silly. I was a die hard existencialist. But the thing is, that slowly over time you see
your old freinds start to die. At first by accident, and slowly
disease, and finally the chill of old age. You gain a sence of your own mortality, even if you dont wish to. One day it dawns on you that sooner or later, you too will face death.
Sounds to me like your "faith" is based on Pascal's Gambit ...
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Old 11-10-2002, 06:19 PM   #13
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Default re: Ssetti

No you could not be more wrong. I dislike the type of intellectual
dishonesty presented with Pascal's gambit. My 'faith' if that
is what the word means, is based on the sincerity of an eight
year old girl. Not that it matters to a hardened cynic.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
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Old 11-10-2002, 06:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: re: Ssetti

Originally posted by Chiteng
My 'faith' if that
is what the word means, is based on the sincerity of an eight
year old girl.
Wow.  That's a statement.  Not that it matters much, but that just seems pretty damn cool to me.

Kids.  Heh.
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Old 11-10-2002, 06:26 PM   #15
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Default re: Ice

Yes. you see everytime someone talks about religion its a sales speech. You automaticly go into telemarketer mode.

But I HAVE to believe that an eight year old girl, is relatively
guile free. THAT is the key difference. HER faith is without
agenda and w/o guile.

Of course she is 18 now and a freshman =/ That is the sad thing about little girls. No matter how we try to shield them, they grow up. But her words at the time, no less true now then they were then.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

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'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

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Old 11-10-2002, 07:07 PM   #16
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If I had the time or the right set of books in my library at home, I'd pull the original of this quote. It was originally from St. Thomas Aquinas, although it's possible someone had said it before him.

Anyway Lurikeen, the quote is just one more rationalization by Chit for his refusal to substantiate any of his claims or allegations. Of course, the context of the quote is in the realm of faith in a higher being, so it's simply inapplicable to concrete reality or the contents of this board.
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Old 11-10-2002, 07:27 PM   #17
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Default re: Raedwulf

Then again of course we have Raedwulf. Who brings his spite
even to a thread about faith.

If it was St. Tomas, he was still a French priest.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:23 AM   #18
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Thanks for your response, Chiteng. I find what you had to say interesting. Especially your remarks on facing our own mortality. I just recently had an experience (details I will not share on a game board) which forced me to rethink my views on life. While the experince by itself is terrible the result is precious.

Ice, thanks for the follow up statements. Where did you find the text you quoted?
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:39 AM   #19
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Where's this thread about faith? Surely not this one. It's a thread about your newest, crazy, out-of-context quote of some old dead French guy.
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Old 11-11-2002, 11:20 AM   #20
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Default re: raedwulf

No Raedwulf, that is you are incapable of seeing anything beyond your own bigotry. Therefore you will see nothing of value.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

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Old 11-11-2002, 05:26 PM   #21
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Now I'm a bigot? That's a funny one. Based on what Chit for Brains? Where have I attacked someone solely based upon their race, religion, gender or anything else. If you consider my distaste for loudmouthed, psychotics who can't be bothered to tell the truth or answer a simple question without changing the subject, then I'm guilty. Of course, that's no one but your own definition of bigotry.

I'm only bigotted against Martians, of which you are clearly one.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:28 PM   #22
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Default re: Raedwulf

Yes Raedwulf you are. Not only that but your a LYING bigot.

In your mind this thread could not possibly be about faith,
it simply had to be about me denying something. Except
that nothing that was asked or stated had me denying anything.
The topic never even came up until of course YOUR arrival.


That makes you an absolute bigot.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:30 PM   #23
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Default Lurikeen

I linked to the page just before quoting it (the underlined "this").  It's a review on hallvideo.com that I found in a Google search.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:32 PM   #24
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Chiteng in another thread you claimed to know what God see's through his eyes, yet you accuse Raedwulf of bring a liar? Don't bother even posting your ignorant view of any type of faith here if you are judging people and attaching Gods name to it.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:38 PM   #25
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Default re: Dwarkarn

He is a liar Dwarkarn. I will call him anything I like.
It doesnt matter to me at all what your opinion is.
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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

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