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Old 08-20-2004, 12:55 PM   #26
Nefrya
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Please do not stop leading PU raids Deshane. It is my opinion that through you and your teams efforts, the standard and quality of PU raids in general has increased tremendously.

As I see it, there are three groups of people who would like attend PU raids. Those who need the flag, those who are after the loot, and those who are there to help others.

Concerning those there to get a flag, I see your raids as having done nothing but help people get flags. Due to the high percentage of successful wins, not to mention the reduced time in forming/completion, more people are able to flag. The argument that your raids discourage people from joining non-DKP raids is silly. Yes non-DKP raids take longer to form and at times do not form at all due to lack of interest, but that is how it was before Deshane raids too, and it will continue to be that way. People who did not need the flag were loathe to participate, and the same trend continues with the exception of the added motivation of DKP.

Yes some people would rather wait for a Deshane raid to have a higher chance of being succesful.... but that line of argument tells me....ooh, lets not have good strong leaders, because then the less experienced/prepared leaders will not get a following.... DUH! Whether it's business, sports teams, guilds people want to go where they will win, be succesful & have fun. We shouldn't hate those who are there, rather invest in preparation, emulate the good communication and start building a succesful rep/following for ourselves if the desire is there.

Regarding the loot...well I can see a valid argument for not wanting DKP here. It allows people who contribute less and work less the same chance at a reward. Personally tho, I have no issue with those who have invested more time in helping the PU movement along to earn the loot. I think people who have stated "if you don't like it, don't attend" have it right here.

Finally, those who are noble enough to participate in a raid just to help their friend, guildie or fellow E Marrer. Well, I wish I could say I sometimes belonged in this category.... but I honestly can't say that I would have been willing to spend hours attending some of your raids for flags I already had and loot I had no interest in, if there hadn't been atleast the small incentive of DKP.

In conclusion....I fully support your raids Desh, I think there is room enough in EMarr for DKP PU and non DKP pu. Sorry my email is so long, I just REALLY don't want you to stop.

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Old 08-20-2004, 12:58 PM   #27
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OMFGROTFLMFAO Blud!! (he was jokeing just incase anyone didnt know :P)

DKP is a double edged sword, in many ways it is helping the puraid:emarrs' by giving them the raiding guild feeling without the need to leave there small family guilds. I do see how some peeps will jump to a DKP raid if the current PURaid that they are in isnt forming up quickly enuff and this does hurt the people who DO put out the work to try and lead one of these.

What I do see DKP doing the most, is getting the muscle (People with the gear to back up there toons) to help out on a raid that they otherwise wouldnt bother with.

Backflagging, I know alot of peeps in the "UBER" guilds have alts that will attend these raids, and why not? DehsaneRaids=Results most of the time. I havent been on a Deshane Raid yet that hasnt had a tag along grp for flags. Deshane has worked very hard to open this up for the average player.

Dont quit bud. While there are some peeps who would pick up were you left off, it just wouldnt be the same without you somewere near the head.

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Old 08-20-2004, 01:09 PM   #28
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just want to make a few points here about the dkp system...

the system was meant mainly to help people get flags. it takes alot of people to get someone a flag. with the dkp system, we award those who help others the most.

let me pose a question. which is more fair?

A: player1 attends one raid, gets flag and nice shiny trinket, never having helped anyone but themselves. while player2 has helped on many raids and never won anything.

or

B: player1 attends one raid, gets their flag, while player 2 attends many raids, helping others get flagged, gets a flag of their own, and gets a nice shiny trinket for their help.

we have an experienced crew. this crew has 47 wins and only 3 failures. we also beat SolRo on our first attempt. we have over 1000 different people who have attended our raids, and almost 700 of those have signed up(many still do not know they have points due to lack of advertising the site, but we are getting in touch with more of them every day).

because we have such a talented crew, we are able to form our raids faster, meaning multiple flags every night, rather than normal pu raids who take 2-4 hours to form and many cannot wait that long and leave, threatening the failure of the raid.

yes it is true that we are flagging people for the elemental planes, and further as we go along. as has been mentioned, this was bound to happen sooner or later. the current EPlanes guilds will just have to deal with the fact that they cannot hog zones anymore.

everyone should have a chance, which is what we are doing here. PoP is an old expansion, and keeping people out of it only means they are further behind when the new expansions come out. it seems every new expansion, the big guilds go on a recruiting spree. be it from loss or members or difficulty of encounters, either way there will be noone left in the pool to pick from when you need to recruit as none will meet the requirements, or you will have tons of backflagging to do.

all in all i like the DKP on PU's. i think it has helped many people, and will continue to do so. plus if desh leaves, i am taking over and you dont want that /em cracks his whip
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Elsongo
OMFGROTFLMFAO Blud!! (he was jokeing just incase anyone didnt know :P)
Shhh. Thats a secret. Deshane might start thinking I like him or something.

If I'm not there to knock him down every now and then he might float away with that big head he is getting.
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:43 PM   #30
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you still owe me a duel bludy
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:52 PM   #31
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As has been mentioned...the DKP arrangement rewards those who raid more/help more. As far as Im concerned, Deshane, you run a professional, no muss-no fuss organization and I like it.

For the whiner/complainers...they can run their own raids.


Keep up the good work.

/salute Deshane & Friends
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Old 08-20-2004, 02:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Felessan
For the whiner/complainers...they can run their own raids.
I think that's part of the point- Deshane's PUs are hampering their abilities to run pickups since the DKP system puts them at a comparative disadvantage (and yes, they of course could do their own dkp system, but then we're getting really messy).

Personally, you'll never see me at a pickup PoP flag raid (minus RC- anyone? laffo) because I don't need the flags. And you'll never see me at a dkp pickup ele raid if that happens ever because I won't have the points necessary to bid on loot- which would be the only incentive for me to do ring events I've already done a bazillion times. If I wanted to have to attend raids regularly in order to be eligible for loot, I'd join a guild capable of those events. The whole point at a pickup raid is to serve a specific need, be that the desire to raid on a particular night rather than xp grind, the chance at loot, or the chance at a flag, not because a player needs dkp for other raids. That makes it less "pickup" and more "guildish."

Pickup raids are defined by the individual- you're not contributing to the good of a guild, you're contributing to your own good. For many of you, you're after flags. For someone like me, I'd maybe go to fill out some spots I still have VT gear in. Just different motivations. /shrug
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Old 08-20-2004, 02:21 PM   #33
Kukar Wildethorn
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Ummm... yeah... here's my 2cp worth

Deshane's raids are well run... they get results... and I rarely, if ever, get dead on one of them ( an amazing feat in and of itself ). The DKP system gives me the assurance that eventually, I'll get my peice of phat lewt. After a recent Raiding experience that left me with nothing to show for it but a migraine and a bad attitude, going on a well run, professional guild style raid led by a moderator ( desh was present, but not the actual leader ) was a pure joy.

I guess my only complaint is that I wasn't chamber flagged for Sol Ro when y'all did him last time, and missed out... just a little impatient for us to kill him again, cause I want into Fire, especially since I'm chamber flagged now.

I doubt if you quit that the day of the DKP PU raid would end... too many people like the idea... hell, watchin the bidding, even when it's not something I want, is sometimes as much fun as killing Ubermob99
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:04 PM   #34
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Quit raiding no.

Quit bitching yes.
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:51 PM   #35
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The PU raids have helped alot of people get into the Ele's which I have no prob with at all since it gives me a bigger pool of people to group with. I imagine most of the people bitching about your raids are in guilds that dont want the average player in the Eles.

Oh well, get over it people, PoP is so last year ;p.

Keep leading your raids and kicking ass Desh
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Old 08-20-2004, 04:37 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
The whole point at a pickup raid is to serve a specific need, be that the desire to raid on a particular night rather than xp grind, the chance at loot, or the chance at a flag
Precisely. The vast majority of folks on these raids are for flags. The DKP chance at loot is gravy. Whatever the reason, it is their own decision to participate with Deshane and Co., or not.

For those who complain about it hampering their ability...isnt this the same as the old guild rivalries where one mobilized faster than another?

/shrug

My $.02, but with inflation prolly worth much less.
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Old 08-20-2004, 05:58 PM   #37
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It is all about the FLAG. I Go to Desh's Raids becouse They Blow shit up. The Fire power at a Deshane PU is better than any pu around. The People who show up to Desh's raids are there to Help others. Most have better loot that drops from the lower mobs. IF you want a Flag the best way of getting it is with Desh and crew. IF Desh stops his PU raids Some of you will never see The Elemental Planes.

Desh
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Old 08-20-2004, 05:59 PM   #38
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Did not get to finish my post my damn water Line broke and the back of my house is Soaked
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Old 08-20-2004, 08:51 PM   #39
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I like your raids and your system deshane, it gives people a reason to go on a raid even if they have flag which helps everyone who needs the flags/loot. I think deshanes raids promote a sense of emarr community because no matter your guild or thoughts, as long as you don't piss off deshane you can go on his raids.

For those who don't want people in EP, prepare, EP's are going to be the new bot next expansion! /manical laugh

I'm one raid from EP and I have Deshane to thank for that...
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:06 PM   #40
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PU raids are well and good. I rather support them, myself, as it allows the player who chooses not to kneel to an uber guild a chance to still see the latter portions of the game. Anyone who runs PU raids successfully and helps people progress... more power to you.

As many others have already said, however, I'll also say that I'm against the DKP system. Sure, it makes it so that the hardcore players who attend many raids are rewarded for their efforts, but those same hardcore players could also just join up with a big guild with so much available playtime each week. For the casual player, who doesn't play nearly enough to bother applying to a raiding guild, DKP just takes away one more avenue of having a chance to score that raid encounter piece of gear they've been all hot and steamy over.

In the end, it's your gig, which means you get to say how it goes. I see plenty of asshats out there who will assemble groups or raids just for the sole purpose of earning a particular piece of gear for their own use and people seem to like those folks just fine. To each their own.
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:03 AM   #41
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Whoot I finally attended a "Deshane Raid" ... I had fun.. Was very informative.. And I like that he is in every part of the raid... I have hardly ever seen a Raid Leader in the "healer chat". Sure most of us who have played a cleric, druid, shaman, and etc. know how to heal, but he makes sure we are not sleeping on the job Thank you Deshane for the raid.. Looking forward to more...

*grovels before Deshane*
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:31 AM   #42
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I <3 Deshane Raids (whether led by him or one of his more-than-competant leaders).

Thanks for my flags!!!
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Old 08-21-2004, 05:41 AM   #43
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Hail Deshane,

Not only i agree your servce on leading PU Raid's and doing DKP system at the same time is fine my me. But the real point of all of this is one thing thoses that bitch dont understand...Flags > loot...because in the end when u reach the deeper in of PoP..you will exp that u gotten PoTme and can get better loot there, but the point is. Deshane is giving us all a chance to reach deep in PoP. I and my guild are happy and to be in with all ur system, it does help alot, and you deshane, no matter what assholes say, You are the best for doing this for all.
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Old 08-21-2004, 06:01 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Europea
PU raids are well and good. I rather support them, myself, as it allows the player who chooses not to kneel to an uber guild a chance to still see the latter portions of the game. Anyone who runs PU raids successfully and helps people progress... more power to you.

As many others have already said, however, I'll also say that I'm against the DKP system. Sure, it makes it so that the hardcore players who attend many raids are rewarded for their efforts, but those same hardcore players could also just join up with a big guild with so much available playtime each week. For the casual player, who doesn't play nearly enough to bother applying to a raiding guild, DKP just takes away one more avenue of having a chance to score that raid encounter piece of gear they've been all hot and steamy over.
I see this a lot in this thread..." Just apply to X raiding guild and do it with them". There's a problem with that... Not everyone is a wizard, or a bard, which seem to be the only 2 classes being actively recruited by the bulk of the raiding guilds. Also, raiding guilds have aa requirements... for good reason... and not everyone has that many AA's. Raiding guilds also have required raid times, but not everyone gets home from work in time to join... And in the off chance that you can find a raiding guild that will take your class, with your aa's and your playing time, you also have to consider that they may not run raids in a fashion that you can adjust to ( From personal experience... I joined a guild... great people... gets results... raids well together.... but I simply could not handle the way they did things... to each their own )... Deshane's raiding system allows for you to start accumulating points on day 1. whether you've signed up or not, you attend the raid, you get the points... Unless you're a complete F***Tard and can't do your job without excessive coaching, or you manage to do something intentionally catastrophic to derail the raid, you have a chance at loot on your second raid. Yes, it DOES happen that you attend a regular PU raid the first time and win on the random for your peice of phat lewt ( Happened to me with my REBB from Jiva ), BUT, someone who has attended the raid 4 or 5 times, never won anything, and wants that item, just got screwed cause of you (Sorry Bru, I still feel KINDA bad about that). As of right now, with Deshane's DKP raids, very few items are going for more than 20 points. you can have that many points in a single weekend if you're really that serious about it. Deshane also runs a VERY high end guild style no BS straight forward raid, with well thought out strategies, researched targets and clear instructions... in the business world, I'd call it professionalism, but not really sure that term is correct for what I'm trying to say.

basically what I'm trying to say is that if you're not able to get into X raiding guild cause you don't have the play time, aa, Playtime to get the aa, or you're not one of the top desired classes, then you HAVE to do P/U raids for flags if you want to progress. If you did all standard PU's, you might, possibly, get lucky and win 50% of the time. Of those 50% of your raids, what are the odds that a) the mob will drop the item you're after b) You'll be the only one that wants it (The only way to be guaranteed to get it) or c) you'll win the random. if you do all Deshane raids, you are a) all but guaranteed the flag and b) guaranteed that if you have the points, you'll get some loot.

don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to join a DG or Affy or Magister... see the world and be UBER... but since no one wants my noob ass in their guild, and Deshane is willing to at least let me use my damned pet on the trash mobs in his raids, I'll follow him... at least that way I know I have the opportunity to progress.

edited for spelling errors, it's cold in here and my typing sucks. also added a little more ( Yeah, I can be long winded )
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Old 08-21-2004, 06:08 AM   #45
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/cheers for Kukar Wildethorn


Well said.
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Old 08-21-2004, 08:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Warger
Hail Deshane,

But the real point of all of this is one thing thoses that bitch dont understand...Flags > loot...

Considering I am EP flagged, and I do have some EP gear I suppose that generalization does not apply. Also, there may be that one drop I want from a specific boss that I may want. I would rather have a shot at /random than have to go on 20 raids to be "garunteed" that loot.

I have all my flags. The onlt raids I go on I go on with my alts who need the flags. Now if I am getting 4 different toons flagged, Even if i go on 30 raids, thats only 7DKP apiece. I would rather have a shot at random, than get one garbage piece of gear for each alt. I did as much work as anyone else, and attended as many raids, but I get less chance at loot because I have been playing many characters.

I can't even say well I want to kill X mob for a chance at Y loot, because getting a PUraid together now is all but impossible. No one wants to go on a raid that isn't DKP. Maybe DKP helps Desh's raids get more already flagged people, but how does it help m,yself, or anyone else that wants to lead a raid?
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Old 08-21-2004, 10:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Fawnii
Maybe DKP helps Desh's raids get more already flagged people, but how does it help m,yself, or anyone else that wants to lead a raid?
Does anyone know the actual success rate on NON-DKP Pick up raids? I know that I attended at least 7 non-dkp pickup raids for grummy, and of those 7 only 2 succeeded. the first was the one I got my flag on and led by VoE. The second one I led and it was UGLY, but by sheer luck, we succeeded. Pretty sure that Deshane is batting 1000 against grummus.

so in answer to your question, What do Deshanes raids get you? Results. you stated yourself that you're after flags, not loot.

oh, and if you attend 30 raids split evenly between 4 toons, with an average mob DKP value of 3, you're looking at 22 - 23 points per toon, which is enough to get you your loot in a lot of cases.
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Fawnii
No one wants to go on a raid that isn't DKP. Maybe DKP helps Desh's raids get more already flagged people, but how does it help m,yself, or anyone else that wants to lead a raid?
I dunno about that. I think the draw to Deshane & Co.'s raids are their success rate. In my experience with the system, the loot is just that little bit extra. Most folks are there for the flags as the real loot wil come later. Not to mention seeing a good RL in action. Deshane is very smooth.

Yes the DKP means something...eventually everyone will get their shot at <insert sub-00ber item_001 here>. The stuff that drops at the lower tier flags isnt that great, so that cant really be an issue. Now when you get into the Zek's and MM, etc, things start to p/u...but so does the difficulty level...hence the desire to get this flag from a competent source.

It all comes down to...a competent set of RL's running the show. Lets be honest some of the folks running p/u raids were ill prepared for the size of the operation, the personalities involved, or the mob involved. Deshane's crew tends to avoid all of these. As it always has, reputation has made its mark.

Keep up the good work guys...

/salute Emarr
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Old 08-21-2004, 02:21 PM   #49
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If there's so little recruitment in the upper-tier guilds and so many people without a home, this would normally be an indication that there's room for another guild to be formed.

But why do that when you could just join Deshane's raids and have all the perks with no responsibility?
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by FanonFaythunder
If there's so little recruitment in the upper-tier guilds and so many people without a home, this would normally be an indication that there's room for another guild to be formed.

But why do that when you could just join Deshane's raids and have all the perks with no responsibility?
As I've stated many many times, I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever start a guild, my home is in DG, and in DG I will stay.
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