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Old 03-29-2002, 10:15 PM   #1
Tanarin
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Default Bards and Vox (please read, bards especially)


Recent events in Dragon raids have began to concern myself and several other bards on our server. The way bards are being treated at these raids has become appauling and we would like this problem to be solved. The major concern of ours, as of late the white scale dropped by vox is no longer randomed amongst the bards, but now we must roll against all casters. This scale is the most crucial piece of our epic. Other pieces can be attained with limited difficulty (the red scale has many sources) but this scale has 2, and few of us have the capability to tackle Gorenaire. We do not feel that our epic should be compromised for more of a "comfort item" for casters. I will admit that the cloak is nice, but not nice enough to deprive bards of their epics. Besides, Vox drops a much more spectacular item for you (Tobrin's Mystical Eyepatch). All 4 of the bards on the most recent attempt at Vox agreed with these views. Bards have always just sat in the background and let things pass us by. We are the only melees not allowed to roll on haste items. Though this rule has upset us, we accept it. But we have backed down enough.......

Bards, please post here if you support these views.

Other classes, post your opinions on this issue also, I know some pure casters supported us at the raid also.

I'm not proposing a rotation or anything on scales for bards. All I want is Erollisi's bards to get their fair chance at their epics as our epics are group/raid oriented.

Tanarin Toneweaver
Bard of the 53rd song
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Old 03-29-2002, 10:38 PM   #2
Llliililili11
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and i think you bards are little bitches for groups/raids
so quit your whining and STFU thats my opinion
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Old 03-29-2002, 11:11 PM   #3
Aauan
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EAD lillillilililllwhatthefuckever


the rules have always been if you don't agree with the loot rules don't go. i feel casters are being greedy forcing a roll for it, but if thats what the raid leaders want to do, then they can. anyone can lead a dragon raid. if/when i lead one, by god, bards will roll for CoF and be exclusive for the scale, and the eyepatch of vox will be randomed to hybrids as well...so nyah
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Old 03-30-2002, 01:16 AM   #4
Hadila
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All i'm gonna say is my raid April 13th, it's to get a bard friend her scale. Just an idea get some friend together and kill vox yourself then no argueing )
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Old 03-30-2002, 02:24 AM   #5
metzo forte
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Default huzzah


I agree with you 100% Tanarin.
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Old 03-30-2002, 03:04 AM   #6
Syldra Marlowe
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Default Re: huzzah


I feel pretty responsible for the whole ordeal but here's what I have to say...

If you dont like the rules, dont go.

If you need a scale and you cant run a raid, make friends with someone who can.

If you cant accomplish that... dont waste your time with your epic.

My recent rule has been 50+ bards and 52 casters... this rule isnt against bards and no one's "hating" bards from my end... GOD KNOWS how many bards I've wanted to see win that scale and how many I've supported in doing so... HOWEVER I dont know you, you dont know me, you come on my raid Im happy to have you there... perhaps if you're not a total ass during the raid and I see your face a few times you'll end up with a raid in your honor and the scale defaulted to you... IT HAS HAPPENED.

I have had Vox raids that had NO bards show up... I have seen level 46 bards who havent even STARTED their epics win the scale while rolling against a lvl 52 bard with alt exp points out the ass only to sell it. Now expect me to give a whootytoot when you've attended a few Vox raids here and there and you think you deserve the scale more than a mage or a cleric who has been to 20 just because they want to support their community and could use the extra wis or int from the cloak or the tobrins.

The rule isnt as bad as you think it is... I had my first non bard win a scale recently and that person is using that scale as a trade to obtain part of his epic... is that such a horrid thing? No, honestly I think its better than wasting it on a damn cloak but its not my place to tell someone what to do with thier winnings.

And who's to say that a bard cant bring a few casters on the raid to roll for them? You better believe all the times I've rolled on that scale that I've had a bard it would have gone to. If you're a bard and you have this rule BRING YOUR FRIENDS TO ROLL FOR YOU, make this an ADVANTAGE for crying out loud. (Not that I havent said this a dozen times)

And ya know what else... if its so shitty to bards maybe you should bitch at Verant for making the quest possible with the scale... bitch at them for giving it more than one purpose, not the raid leaders, not the rule setters. And as far as the RBB goes, if I had MY way there would be less classes rolling on it period, its not a matter of treating bards bad but if thats what you want to think hey, dont go.

Im so tired of people being so anal about dragon raids, haste, and epics... if you have to depend on pick up raids for your epic pieces you better take what you can get and just thank god for competant people who are willing to lead 15 competant players and 15 loot whoring newbies through a 3-5 hour process of trying to take down a level 55 mob that shouldnt take more than an hour just so people they dont know can have a possible shot at something better than what they have.

*shrug* thats MY opinion...

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Old 03-30-2002, 10:06 AM   #7
JosiahSupertank
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Default Re: huzzah


Man...this is hard...

In a weird and confusing way i agree with both Tanarian and Syldra...I was in kind of the same predicament when it came to my red scale...i didnt want to roll against 10 + warriors/bards for it so...i decided to run my own raid where i reserved it.

Now if you plan on running your own raid...you may want to run 1 or 2 successful ones before outright reserving the scale, just to gain respect in the community. I personally think that teh loot rules should be determined strictly by the leader. I have run many raids where i have a high level cleric or monk or enchanter help me out and ive allowed them in on rolls.

Tanarian..i owe you a sword but how bout if i run a vox for you so you can get your scale? Sound good...talk to me in game : )

i think complaining about loot rules is highly unprofessional and seperates the selfish loot whores from those who are in simply to help others out...casters...i know you do that alot on these raids and Lord knows i owe you wizzys / enchs / clerics / mages etc. a ton for helping me out. Lets just all hope Vox drops 2 scales everytime ; )

Naggy 20-1 Vox 7-0
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Old 03-30-2002, 10:19 AM   #8
Llliililili11
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Default Re: huzzah


/agree with hadila and syldra
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Old 03-30-2002, 11:13 AM   #9
Ashreyl
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Default opinion from a bard who has been there


Oh My God.... where do i start here?
Syldra has covered so much of it.. but i want to give my perspective here...

The 1st Dragon raid I ever went on was Vox. I was Level 51 and had just recently found out from a friend that the white scale i needed for my epic was rediculously hard to get if you let yourself ding 53, so i figured it was time to start going. There was only me and 2 other bards (a 46 and a 48 ) . In what was one the most bard friendly drops i have EVER seen(2 scales and a horn) the raid leader had reserved a scale for himself and i lost both the scale and the horn on rolls. This phased me not a bit at the time because it was only my 1st raid and i had quite alot of fun.

Still, I was DETERMINED to get my scale and so i had to slow down on xp quite seriously, and dedicate myself to going to every pickup Vox and Naggy raid i could possibly go to. I never complained about what the loot rules were; If i thought i had a decent chance of winning the scale i went (which was nearly always). The best way to have a good chance to win a rondom die roll is to roll the dice as often as possible. I had killed myself on purpose 3 times by the time i was on my 4th dragon raid, but i started making ALOT of really cool friends.. who actually started to care whether i got my epic or not.

Soon after, Luclin came out and I could stop killing myself and put points into Alt xp instead (i kept it on 90% until i saw 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of NO SPACE on my 52 xp bar.

My records vs the dragons are Ashreyl 15 Vox 5 and Ashreyl 8 Nagefen 4 so i got to know who the good raid leaders are and started taking lessons from them. I even lead 3 Vox raids (all successes) before a very good friend reserved the Vox scale for me and it dropped. Syldra's advice about bringing level 52+ casters is EXCELLENT .. not only do you increase your chances you have made the raid stronger. If you dont have friends to help you then you really have no hope of completing your epic anyhow.

By the time I had gotten my Vox scale I was a Baron with 3 extra aa points (thats 9 total). I had lost rolls on the Vox scale 6 times before getting it. I had rolled (as a Baron) against a level 46 Bard who was a confirmed Ebayer, and lost (thankfully it was to the level 50 bard and not him). But in a strange twist of Karma, by the time i had gotten my Vox scale i had won every piece of loot off Vox or Naggy a bard could concievably roll on (horn, drum, tink bag, red scale, (and orb of tishan was given to me)). And MOST importantly I had one of the best times in my EQ experience and made some of the BEST friends i have ever had in game.

Recently I asked some of them (and other friends) to help me complete what i have been told (but am not certain) was the first successful Pickup Trakanon raid on Emarr. If you can imagine how the tears welled up and my heart soared knowing that there were 50 people from around the world who wanted me to have my epic enough to dedicate hours of their time to it, you can begin to feel what my epic has meant to me. There were at least 20 other people who wished me luck that couldnt be there and people were still coming online and asking if it was too late to help up to the last minutes.


Everquest is a game... what do you want out of your gaming experience?

Don't let your impatience get in the way of your fun.

Don't think that the reward itself is better than the accomplishing of it (there's a reason you dont fast forward to the end of movies)

an EPIC is defined as: the fantastic adventures and conquests of a great hero or a story about such adventures.

an epic is NOT defined as the easy and drab life of Silverspoon Troy who never works to do anything and evertually stumbles into all he needs because he cryed.

It is my wish that all players could just realize what it is they actually want out of this game and make it happen. Some people want to be the most uber (whatever class they are) by getting all the best stuff and getting to be the highest level with the most points and the most boss mobs killed. If that is your quest, i salute you and wish you luck. If you need the assistance of an epic bard i am sure you can find a better equpped one than me to help you. If you want to have a fun time equipping yourself with what makes your character look how you want him to or have some noble deed you want completed because it looks like it would be a good time, you are already my friend.

Ashreyl Benesephiir
Leader Legion of Might

The most powerful thing you can do to enemies is make them friends.
If you can make their eyes glaze over too, you are truely a master.
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Old 03-30-2002, 11:34 AM   #10
Aauan
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Default Re: opinion from a bard who has been there


nm
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Old 03-30-2002, 11:56 AM   #11
Ashreyl
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Default Re: opinion from a bard who has been there


ack!

Syldra has been though alot of raids as a leader and has always tried to make her raids fair and as good natured as possible. Maybe calling people loot whores who dont see dragon raids for the good time they can be because they are either too obsessed with loot or dont know any better is a bit harsh. But how many times could YOU handle someone sending you tells like "can i roll on the RBB for my level 25 twink warrior" while you are trying to have a good time before you start mentally creating a category of people who "do these things that piss me off"?

and for Ariakkas.. umm.. didnt you give me a shrouded medallion that you won the roll on because you thought i wanted it more.. give it up, you arent a loot whore.

Some people are on dragon raids for loot, some for the experience of it. Again, i just have to say.. please remember its a game and it should never be a waste of time.. what do you want that loot for? so you can kill bigger monsters and get better things? so, when does the fun start? at the same time, maybe this particular piece of loot really IS the last item a player needs before he is satisfied.. how would i know?



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Old 03-30-2002, 12:20 PM   #12
Brooan The Pansy Bard
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Default Re: opinion from a bard who has been there


I'd have to say that I pretty much completely agree with Ashreyl and Syldra on this one. First off, if you're attending the dragon raids with only the loot in mind the whole point of the encounter is kind of lost. It's supposed to be about facing a difficult encounter as a team, and if you work together well enough, heck you just might be compensated in the end.

Also, who's to say that any bard is more deserving of that scale for helping out on a raid than that caster who wants a cloak? Did you help the raid out any more than they did? I've seen casters take over 5 deaths just so they can dump a few more bars of mana on that dragon. I'm not going to deny them the chance to roll on some little loot item just so I can have the (luxury?) of attending a few less raids. As for the caster who got the scale and is using it to try to get a piece for his epic, that's completely great in my book. I talked to him about it and he even refuses to sell it for cash. Fair play in my book.

Basically, if you want it enough, lead a few raids yourself and get it that way or bring caster friends. Who knows? Maybe you'll make a few buddies in the process and you'll enjoy the game itself a bit more.
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Old 03-30-2002, 06:15 PM   #13
Crinkle
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Default Re: opinion from a bard who has been there


I used to lead vox/nags awhile back and the scale caused great unease, at first I let casters in on it, but after about 4 of em sold the scale I got sick of the bs and made it bard only, I think only one bard sold the white scale, =P however if people would be honest and either not roll or sell if they need it would be easier. (yes i know it will never happen)

however i feel hiero cloak is just as good for casters, shrug that white scale maybe should, I like the idea of a bard bringing a cloak equal to or better then a white scale cloak to trade in if a casters win it, shrug just my 2 cents good luck bards
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Old 03-30-2002, 07:57 PM   #14
Argnoth
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Default Re: opinion blah blah


First off i want to say, Llliililili11 shut your pie hole. I think you need to learn a lil more respect for those posting before coming on here and posting like that. The other thing I wanted to say is one way of counteracting the scale going to someone who wouldn't use it for epic is maybe making bards 50+ only able to roll on it. It truely makes sense. The idea of making casters 52+ rolling on it isn't bad if you want to bring in friends to increase you chances of getting it. Personally I quit doing these two dragon pickup raids because people would get really abhorent over loot and ect. If your going to raid just for the loot, go get a group and try to take down Good_Loot_Mob_03. Just my two cents. take it or leave it.

-Argnoth
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Old 03-30-2002, 11:07 PM   #15
Tanarin
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Default My reason for winning


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a giant loot whore. I don't want to come off this way. Many issues that have been talked about so far seem like good ideas. I don't protest against 52 casters rolling on the scale, a 52 dying 5 times does deserve their chance at that cloak. However, when they drop the number to 50 and tie it with bards, it begins to lose its meaning.

I want this item to complete the quest. I pride myself on being an avid quester. How many people other than me do you know that have a Gnoll Slayer? The Epic Quest is what I am after. Fantastic adventures sweeping me across Norrath and beyond. I have searched far and wide, fought alongside many people, and faced nearly unsurmountable odds, and that was just the beginning. I have a long way to go and many of my friends will be called on in the end. This topic was not started for my sake, in case no one noticed the next white scale is reserved for me by Aerivan. This is for bards in general. I feel we as a community are far underrated and underappreciated. We work our asses off and get no thanks. All we ever here is "mana song". Every other class gets accredited for something. "Nice Blast", "Nice Crit", "Thanks for the port" and so on. I just want people to stop overlooking my bardic friends.

Nantuko, Atomsk, Metzo, Lilyana, and many others are all excellent bards who will be going for their scales. I know Nantuko and Atomsk are both level 52, probably starting their AA. I have several AA points, wouldn't be surprised if I achieve Baron status before the next raid, but that is beside the point.

Be nice to the bards, we work hard. We don't get much rest, we have to change songs every 3 seconds. Its a very taxing job, but we do our best to help others battle. The bard is not a person to fight for themselves. A bard is one who thrives on commoradery.

I am sorry if I have upset anyone with my thoughts on this post, but I want my friends to continue this quest without losing hope, as Aerivan didn't want me to lose hope. I was going to screw my epic and level, no matter how much I wanted it.

If no one if offended by my thoughts, I will continue Vox/Naggy raids for a while. I have my red scale already, but I love to see a large scaly freak at my feet. =)

Tanarin Toneweaver
Bard of the 53rd Song
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Old 03-31-2002, 08:51 AM   #16
Ashreyl
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Default Re: My reason for winning


Tan...

in no way did i think you were a loot whore, nor did you offend me. BELEIVE me... I started to get really pissy towards the end when i thought there was any chance someone was screwing me out of. I saw a scale go to someone who came to a Vox raid in the buff hall when the post on this board stated that late comers would only roll on the second best item they could. I was upset and told the leader how much i thought that sucked in a not so very elloquent way. It DOES get frustrating trying to win the white scale without it being reserverd to you.

Remember AA points are actually pretty cool =). Save up a few after you hit baron for the level 55 abilities if you get more than 6.. I can crit with spelcasting fury now .. and i get to hear people say wow when an amplified epiced bombastic bellow crit blasts stupidass_meanie_02 for almost 800 points of damage. (561 without epic)

Do not lose heart, fellow Minstrels. The bard epic just might be the best epic in the game, and as a bard i assure you your opinion will be that it is.

I do agree that only 52 casters should roll on the scale if someone other than bards have to roll on it.. but i also think that if you are a level 52 bard with several AA points and you should seriously consider leading your own Vox raid. Erollisi knows you should be charismatic enough. If you need tips let me know.. i may even show up to help you.
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Old 03-31-2002, 12:24 PM   #17
Syldra Marlowe
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Default Re: My reason for winning


Yeah what Ash said... err no really... I wasnt offended either and I dont think badly of ANYONE involved in the thread. It is a hot topic for me, so I apologize for seeming way bitchy about it.

If you need any help getting the scale or someone to organize a Vox raid, hey, /tell me and I'll help ya out. If you have it covered... good luck to you. There's nothing I want to see more than a few people with their epics.
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Old 03-31-2002, 07:31 PM   #18
Enbekay
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Default Re: My reason for winning


@#%$ that "If you don't like the rules, don't go" bull @#%$.

I like, "If you don't like their rules, KS their asses!"

WOOT!
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Old 03-31-2002, 10:32 PM   #19
Llliililili11
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Default Re: My reason for winning


whine some more argnoth ?
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Old 04-01-2002, 09:33 AM   #20
Argnoth
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Default Re: My reason for winning


/boggle

whine? nah. Just trying to help you see the truth that your head is stuck up yer arse
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Old 04-01-2002, 09:53 AM   #21
Aauan
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Default Re: My reason for winning


if you claim that casters put in jsut as much effort as the bard did, and should be allowed on the roll, then why the hell not jsut roll it to everyone? everyone can sell it and get what they NEED, this is where NBG goes to @#%$.

need means something you will wear that is a considerable increase in both what YOU wear, and who would be rolling against you. an epic is a helluva lot more of an upgrade than a cloak is.

if casters are allowed to roll, let everyone roll, thats my belief.


oh, and let everyone roll for the RBB, the eyepatch and EVERYTHING else. don't discriminate against bards, we/they already get screwed out of a CoF

and yes ash, that was me, glad you liked the medallion =p


L00t \/\/|-|()R3 extrordainaire (don't ask me how to spell it /shrug)
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Old 04-01-2002, 10:16 AM   #22
Langree
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Default Re: My reason for winning


Having been witness to this for the first time the other day (as I broken heartedly gave up the spear that was rightfully mine, but that's another tale).

My feeling is Bards first here, NBG, they did it with the spear and rogues, the spear is cash loot or twinkage to everyone else but they limit it to rogues.

If you have bards that need the scale, give them a shot, might save them from having to do it at a later time for their epic. Especially if they are already 52 and still need it, because at that point you either hold at 52 and keep going to raids or ding and pay through the ass for the scale.

I did the raid the other day to help Vaalken out, sacrificed to 52 and died 3 other times. One the roll than had it re-rolled and lost it so I'm stuck with my slimey (I'm ghetto uber)

Would I do it again???
Even if I get nothing in return?
Damn skippy I would because I'm helping others out. and I would hope that others will help me (I need to do the General in Kith, lets talk)


Langree
53 (and holding, just in case we need to do it again) Rogue
Forgotten Guard
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Old 04-01-2002, 11:10 AM   #23
Enbekay
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Default Re: My reason for winning


That spear is worthless. 10-30 isn't it? Maybe sell for 300p. Thats 15 peridots, woot!

Only a few guilds can kill Gorenaire and I doubt a pick up group can get the wizards to take the bitch down. You can't zerg Gorenaire cause of her ae slow and fear. The pick up slots usually have what? 1, maybe 2 wizards?

Give the Bards a shot at something they will likely NEVER get a chance at.
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:26 PM   #24
Festivus
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Default Re: My reason for winning


Not to dishearten, but when I was 52 I intentionally deleved and held myself up to try for white and red scales. Here are the results of that deleveling project:

Total Vox raids 30+
Total Naggy raids 30+

Total number of scales I won from those raids combined: Zero

I have more tishan orbs in the bank and other dragon raid crap then I care to think about. While I agree it may seem unfair, the best way to get the scales (as others have suggested) is to organize the raids yourself. I never did this, rather I gave up on my epic and worked on leveling instead, and enjoyed the game far more for doing so. There is more to the game than your epic, so get out there and enjoy it. There are more than Naggy/Vox for sources for scales. Yes I eventually got mine, but I was 60 when I got it, and I really truely felt like I earned it, but more importantly, I had FUN getting there.
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Old 04-01-2002, 07:51 PM   #25
Lulen The Bard
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Default re: vox's scale


First I would like to say this is coming from a bard who has been hanging around level 52 for a number of months now, and still doesn't have a white dragon scale. Some of you may ask how come I haven't seen you at a vox raid? Well the answer is simple, I will not go on a raid where my epic item is randomed to non bards. Pretty simple, I don't like the loot rules, so I don't go. I'm sure paladins would feel the same way if they had to roll against other classes for their books( hey people could sell/trade MQ of the book so they can get their own epic items.) It's pretty obvious that no caster is going to turn a white dragon scale into a cloak(if they did they would have to be just about the stupidest person to ever use a computer.) So why do we want to let the roll? If were going to let them roll, why don't we just let everyone roll on every dropable piece, after all they can just sell it and buy what they really need. The reason we don't do this is becuase this comunity has always tended to use NEED before GREED to give out loot. And in NBG epic items are always first priority. To give you an under standing of how I feel about this subject, Imagine the single rarest epic drop for you quest. Now imagine your self rolling against every meele charcter on the raid who want to loot that piece so they can chain it. Are you going to be happy?

Bards are already excluded from rolling on dragon haste items, even though we gain just as much of a % increase in damage as any other class. Heck we allow rogues and rangers to roll on dragon haste even though their epics are haste items.. but not bards. Fine, just as long as only bards are rolling on the scale. Heck you could remove me from every possible roll but the scale and I'll be happy. I only want the scale. I only need the scale. Everything else is crap compared to the scale. If were going to let casters roll on the scale, why are we not letting hybrids roll on the eyepatch? Sure it doesn't have any ac on it, but some hybrids might use it, or at least sell it for what they need. Would casters be "whinny bitches" for being up set if this happend?

So... what can we as bards do about this? Well there is only one thing I can think of. Don't go on any vox raid where any one but bards are allowed to roll on the scale. Just don't go. If they wish to make loot rules that are hostile to bards, then just say no. They can go kill dragon with out us. Sure, they can probaly still do it with out us, but it's going to be harder. They are going to wipe out more. They are going to miss the +111 cold resist +74 mr that I as a level 52 bard can provide. Don't go to the raid and bitch about the loot rules. Once you go to the raid you accept those rules and no longer can complain. Your only voice, your only vote is by not showing up. They will eventuly miss us, As they fail more and more often. As they fail with numbers where before they would have succeded they will realise that we brought something to the raid. And hell, if that doesn't work then were just going to have to organize our own bard friendly raids and compete againts these other raids.

Lulen the bard
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