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Old 11-07-2006, 10:02 AM   #26
Heretic
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Originally Posted by brigiid
No, neither of you can be absolutely positively certain (at this time)
Thats all I'm saying. They can't be CERTAIN no matter how strongly they believe.


Originally Posted by brigiid
At the risk of beating a dead horse, they're as certain that God exists as you are that homosexuality is a biological imperative.
Biological or not, I am 100% certain it wasn't a choice for me.


Originally Posted by brigiid
'Evidence' is in the eye of the beholder, apparently, while actual proof is another subject entirely.
My point exactly.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Heretic
Thats all I'm saying. They can't be CERTAIN no matter how strongly they believe.
Why the fuck do you care how certain they are? You obviously have no idea how faith works, so don't worry about it.
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:51 PM   #28
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" I think being critical of the guy without asking "Is that the only reason you believe?" is also unreasonable.
Go back and look again Wil. I didn't even concern myself if this was his only reason. My intent was to attack that reason for a belief in God. Because that is what he posted. Nowhere did I poke holes at whether or not he had other reasons for what he believed. I didn't even consider it nor did I need to consider it. If I were to conform to your wishes, I would need to know EVERY thing that every person has on their mind. Or in your beliefs I would need to read minds. I would in fact need to be God. Instead, I respond to what is posted because that is the argument that he made so I respond to it. The argument is NOT what someone thinks but doesn't say. If you believe I can read minds than you must have a lot more faith in me than I have. Thank you for your continued support.
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Old 11-07-2006, 06:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Well (and this is something I meant to post before), that wasn't Ini's only post on the subject before bumbler chimed in. To me, there is such conviction in Ini's "tone", that would suggest he isn't just using God as an excuse to explain things.
True enough.


Originally Posted by Heretic
My argument isn't that you can't use things to defy science to be evidence of a god. My argument is that these people are CERTAIN. They can't be.
I wasn't referring to your argument, Heretic. That was Ini's post broken down.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:29 PM   #30
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Why can't people be certain?

How do you know people arent certain?

What gives you the idea that you have the right to make people prove to YOU beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are 100 percent certain in their belief?


and the last question (for Heretic) is are you gay? I mean you posted this and according to a lot of people including your sidekick bumbles all you can go by is the post and NOT assume anything else and you did post this .....


At the risk of beating a dead horse, they're as certain that God exists as you are that homosexuality is a biological imperative.
..:: End Quote ::..
Biological or not, I am 100% certain it wasn't a choice for me.

the first part was what brig had said and the answer is a quote from you.....

Frankly I don't give a shit if your gay as long as you don't email me nude photos of yourself..... just wondering since you answered it that way, of course you could mean that your heterosexual tendencies were not a choice....
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:56 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Heretic
Thats all I'm saying. They can't be CERTAIN no matter how strongly they believe.
Are you certain that you love your parents and they love you? What about your significant other? Can we not even be certain of that?

I'd guess that's how some people feel about their belief in God.. at least the ones that believe in a God of love.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:53 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Celedine
If we had irrefutable proof of god's existence there would be no faith, only automated obedience, and what fun is that?
It isn't.

Originally Posted by Heretic
Thats all I'm saying. They can't be CERTAIN no matter how strongly they believe.
And I'm not disagreeing with you.

Originally Posted by Heretic
Biological or not, I am 100% certain it wasn't a choice for me.
I maintain that you can't be certain, because your average human being probably isn't aware of (or doesn't remember) every influence that comes into their lives - especially at an early age. You can be certain that it isn't a choice you remember making, but that's about it.

This is the equivalent of not knowing the answer to something, and trusting that what you hope happened really happened.

On the topic of homosexuality, because you don't recall making a choice, you hope or assume that there wasn't a choice to be made. On the topic of religion, because someone sees something that defies rational or scientific explanation, they hope or assume that someone or something else caused or allowed it to happen.

It all gets back to the topic of faith and believing in things you can't prove to be true.
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Old 11-08-2006, 04:19 AM   #33
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Im 100 percent sure that I have faith that God exists............

Im 100 percent sure that things were set up this way to see if we would or could keep faith........

Im 100 percent sure that IF things werent the way they were now that they would be different

Anyways.........

I go fishing, bait my hook, cant see a fish number one in the water......... am I wasting my time because I have no proof there are fish in the lake OR do I have faith and try enjoy myself and when the time comes and I do catch a fish I can be happy or excited or whatever and realize how good faith is?
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Old 11-08-2006, 04:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Axgar
Im 100 percent sure that IF things werent the way they were now that they would be different
Axgar finally makes a rational statement!
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:04 AM   #35
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I maintain that you can't be certain, because your average human being probably isn't aware of (or doesn't remember) every influence that comes into their lives - especially at an early age. You can be certain that it isn't a choice you remember making, but that's about it.
I remember learning about God and why I made the choice I did about him.
I was taught the simplest of reasons to obey God at the age of four.

God=heaven, devil=hell.

Some people are afraid to stray from that simplistic view. Some people wish to find other reasons. I contend that not seeking God is worse than blindly following him. If you seek and still believe, your faith is stronger. If you don't seek, yet believe, its like an unused muscle. It atrophies. Therefore ask questions and your spirit will be stronger.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:46 AM   #36
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I guess I wasn't taught about God by means of scare tactics, such as your going to burn in hell ect..... matter of fact quite the opposite, so maybe thats why I have a easier time having faith that he is there, now if I could just act the part better lol.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:26 AM   #37
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I have a easier time having faith that he is there
I think this is extremely vague.
You say you have faith that "He is there"
So I ask, Where is there?
And if you say "Heaven"
I say "where is heaven"?
And if you say "In the sky"
I say "Where in the sky"?
And you say "You just gotta believe"

Your faith is based solely upon words in a book.
Hence, to clarify you have faith in the book. You believe in the story. Your faith is that man can relate the story accurately. Your faith is that man can relate the story throughout the ages without using it to his own benefit. And thus you believe in what is written.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:13 AM   #38
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You dont know shit you fucking idiot.

I never said a word about heaven, there is everywhere, there is behind you in front of you beside you...........

Typical liberal, argue that he is Christian then come up with an arguement that there is not GOD......indecisive retards.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:49 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Axgar
now if I could just act the part better lol.
Originally Posted by Axgar
You dont know shit you fucking idiot.
That's not a good start.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:56 AM   #40
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This is a stupid argument. There is no point insulting each over about something that boils down to its bottom line of what different people believe. At the core of this stupid thread is people simply insulting each other over thier beliefs, which has absolutely no constructive end.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:58 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Everclear
This is a stupid argument. There is no point insulting each over about something that boils down to its bottom line of what different people believe. At the core of this stupid thread is people simply insulting each other over thier beliefs, which has absolutely no constructive end.
Keep your head down and pass the popcorn hun
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by celedine169
That's not a good start.
OH I know it wasnt a good start, was the reason I said now if I could act the part better.........

I just don't understand how a person can sit here and tell us he beleives in God, then turn around and say that the book that teaches about him is BS, I mean comeon it isn't something that you can really ride the fence with....... well I guess you can but IMO you shouldn't.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Axgar
OH I know it wasnt a good start, was the reason I said now if I could act the part better.........

I just don't understand how a person can sit here and tell us he beleives in God, then turn around and say that the book that teaches about him is BS, I mean comeon it isn't something that you can really ride the fence with....... well I guess you can but IMO you shouldn't.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:00 AM   #44
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There is no point insulting each over about something that boils down to its bottom line of what different people believe
I'm not even arguing about what he believes. Its vague. If he is going to say he believes that God is "there", I'm trying to figure out his thought process.
Perhaps his semantics are poor and he meant to say "exists" instead of "there". But if that were the case "faith that he exists" is an oxymoron. Existing is opposite of faith. It requires evidence. Faith is belief with the lack of evidence. Hence his statement is vague.
BTW, the whole heaven....sky thing was sarcastic, the point being missed on some.


I just don't understand how a person can sit here and tell us he beleives in God, then turn around and say that the book that teaches about him is BS,
Ax show me where I said the Bible is BS?
Typical liberal, argue that he is Christian then come up with an arguement that there is not GOD
Try this one out Ax- where did I say there is not God?
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:05 AM   #45
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you said

Your faith is based solely upon words in a book.
Hence, to clarify you have faith in the book. You believe in the story. Your faith is that man can relate the story accurately. Your faith is that man can relate the story throughout the ages without using it to his own benefit. And thus you believe in what is written.


your telling me where my faith come from and where it solely come from, im sorry you liberals look at the close case scenario, I have a big picture I look at outside circumstances and have came to the conclusion God does exist, your trying to tell me that I then do not have faith because I cannot have faith if I believe God exists? thats ludicrous, matter of fact if I think that there may be a possibility that God DONT exist I would be lacking faith, notice I didnt say void of faith....just lacking.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:13 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by wildane
Why the fuck do you care how certain they are? You obviously have no idea how faith works, so don't worry about it.
Because that was the whole point of the survey linked.


Originally Posted by axgar
Why can't people be certain?
Because there is no proof either way. Niether believers or athiests can be 100% certain. I laugh at both sides that claim that.


Originally Posted by axgar
Frankly I don't give a shit if your gay as long as you don't email me nude photos of yourself..... just wondering since you answered it that way, of course you could mean that your heterosexual tendencies were not a choice...
I was talking hetero tendencies. Believe me, I would say if I was gay. Say what you will about my fucked up opinions on here, I stay truthful.


Originally Posted by tuan
Are you certain that you love your parents and they love you? What about your significant other? Can we not even be certain of that?
Love parent and parent love me...yes. Significant other...no.


Originally Posted by brigiid
I maintain that you can't be certain, because your average human being probably isn't aware of (or doesn't remember) every influence that comes into their lives - especially at an early age. You can be certain that it isn't a choice you remember making, but that's about it.
Are there any more biological impulses you can think of that were the result of a choice at some point? Whether genetic or not, it is biological. You become physically aroused by one sex and not the other.

Also, by the nature of things, I don't see how any 'choice' can be made before the time of puberty when all the sexdrive kicks in.


Originally Posted by brigiid
On the topic of homosexuality, because you don't recall making a choice, you hope or assume that there wasn't a choice to be made.
I have stated that I have no problems with homosexuals, so why would i necessarily hope the choice wasn't made?

On another note, if you claim that the irreversable choice is made so early in your life that you can't even remember it...shouldn't it be treated as biological and legally protected? I don't think any of us would want to be legally bound to choices we made in our early years when our mental capacities had not fully functioned. By that same token, if you think we should be legally bound by our early choices on sex, it would seem you would also think that pedophilia should be legal...they are the same or greater age than this 'choice' you speak of.


Originally Posted by axgar
Im 100 percent sure that things were set up this way to see if we would or could keep faith........
Which brings us to the big question? Why should faith in a supreme being that never shows himself to you and is only learned about from others be required for salvation? That would be just forcing you to play some little game. Wouldn't it be better to just judge on your good or bad deeds? What about the small children or faraway tribes who never heard or could conceptualize Christ be condemned to hell for not having this 'faith' that they never knew of?


Originally Posted by axgar
I just don't understand how a person can sit here and tell us he beleives in God, then turn around and say that the book that teaches about him is BS, I mean comeon it isn't something that you can really ride the fence with....... well I guess you can but IMO you shouldn't.
A person can believe in a god other than the one of the bible. Or they can believe in the biblical god, but realize that mankind has been in control of the book for so long that it should not be used as a complete guidebook anymore.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:21 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Heretic
Because that was the whole point of the survey linked.
That doesn't explain why it's so important to you.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:33 AM   #48
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your trying to tell me that I then do not have faith because I cannot have faith if I believe God exists?
Nope you are not understanding.
I am saying "Faith" and "Existing" are opposites. One is known to be real, the other is not known to be real. You can not say you have faith something exists. It doesn't make any sense. You can say you believe it exists. But that is a different thing. Belief is based upon a set of values which you have formulated. Faith is not based upon values, it implies acceptance with no evidence of existence.
No where am I telling you not to have faith or that you can't have faith. But I am saying what you are saying makes no sense. You are having problems understanding me because you are trying to interpret my words to fit your argument.


And thus you believe in what is written.
Tell us why you believe in the God that you believe in then. Is it a Christian God? If so, then you must believe in the Bible because this is the only thing that defines God this way.
Hence, if you are Christian, you must believe in the Bible.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Heretic
but realize that mankind has been in control of the book for so long that it should not be used as a complete guidebook anymore.
People can use the bible as their personal ultimate authority (not the source of authority for everyone though) if they want to, but they should recognize that it is a work of man rather than of god. Declaring that they should not use it makes you into just another person trying to dictate beliefs to someone else, even if I do agree with your sentiment.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
Tell us why you believe in the God that you believe in then. Is it a Christian God? If so, then you must believe in the Bible because this is the only thing that defines God this way.
Hence, if you are Christian, you must believe in the Bible.
Not true. There are centuries worth of scriptures that have been erased from the bible over the past 1500 years, and that doesn't count the entire 6 millenia since the book's purported beginning.
Gnostic Christians use their own bible. So do the remnants of the Albigensians. After King James wrote/edited/had edited for him his version, almost every monarch remaining in Europe did the same. The bible is an outgrowth of the Torah, as is the Quran. Since all these documents sprang from the same origins, are they all The Bible? Or do you believe that King James represented divinity when he made his director's cut?
Which bible do you believe in? The Mormons'? The Witnesses'? Ooo how about the Satanic (yes, satanists use the bible. The King James Version, usually. Anton LaVey quoted from it frequently).
Being a Christian means following Christ's teachings, not the interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation ad nauseum of Christ's teachings. Were you alive 2000 years ago to hear the sermon on the mount? Are you an authority on what Christ taught? Then what makes you an authority on who's a christian and who isn't?
God is not defined by a book. God is illuminated by what you believe in your heart and how you live your life.
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