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Old 09-22-2006, 10:25 AM   #26
Everclear
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Originally Posted by Ax
As far as bad leadership in the war EC, its hard to fight a war with your hands tied, look at what happens EVERY time Bush tries to gain some ground, the left wingers come screaming and hollering YOU CAN"T DO THAT IT'S AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION.
That might have some weight if it didn't happen what? 5 years into the war? Bush was a crappy leader way before last month lol.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:32 AM   #27
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I suppose next your going to tell me that Bush ordered the WTC demolished so that he could go to war.

The so called treaty you are talking about yep you betcha, we are the ONLY ones that worry about it......... unless cutting off heads isn't torture I dunno maybe thats what we should do then since you seem to condone it.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:39 AM   #28
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Umm... no I didn't say that... although I am saying we WERENN'T worrying about it until recently. So his hands have hardly been tied. Hell they admitted to sending prisoners off to secret bases for interrogation... so your excuse really doesn't hold any weight. We have been doing things his way for 5 years, so try again.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:48 AM   #29
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Yea and they have stopped many a plots, of course you libbies want everything in print so that the enemy knows exactly what we are up to.
(then again Im not even sure liberals know who the real enemy is they seem to be on the side of the people who want them dead).
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Axgar
The so called treaty you are talking about yep you betcha, we are the ONLY ones that worry about it......... unless cutting off heads isn't torture I dunno maybe thats what we should do then since you seem to condone it.


(then again Im not even sure liberals know who the real enemy is they seem to be on the side of the people who want them dead).
The Geneva Convention covers uniformed regular military. The beheaders were not. Our soldiers are protected from so called summary execution and so called foreign trial by adhering to its so called provisions. If you love torture so much, perhaps you should move to a nation that isn't party to international treaty, like the Vatican. After all, you (I would say cons here just to parallel your post, but it's you I'm flaming and not all conservatives) claim to know exactly who the enemy is, why don't you march on down to Baghdad and Tehran and Beirut and tell our boys over there who to torture next for information about where the guns and explosives are. Better make sure to kill them when you're done too, you don't want them talking to the UN or the local news. Better kill their families too, so that no one realizes that they're missing. Go off and start your own conservative fundamentalist crusade, but don't expect me to condone my tax dollars being spent to fund it.
The usefulness of torture for intelligence gathering is minimal. People who break under torture will say anything to make the pain stop, regardless of whether it's true or not. Victims of torture will give any name that comes to mind, be it friend, foe, relative or acquaintance, and will say yes to any claim that is made, as long as it prevents more pain.
The real enemy, the Taliban, al-Qaeda and bin Laden, have been forgotten by the politicians and conservative agenda you so eagerly defend. Perhaps those who blindly defend a poor leader's poor choices should look deeper at what their fearless leader is doing rather than pointing fingers and shouting ENEMY at everyone who has a differing opinion, not to mention putting words in other people's mouths.
Don't know why I bothered typing all this, since you've got your feet dug in and won't budge or listen to reason. I guess hope springs eternal tho.
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:32 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Axgar
you libbies want everything in print so that the enemy knows exactly what we are up to.
WTF are you talking about? Who the hell are you calling a "libbies" ? I don't really care what happens to the people who are questioned (EXCEPT American citizens). As far as I am concerned, the rest really don't have any rights. It's war, and it's not like it is a single country we are against. They aren't recognizing rules of engagement, screw them. (Just not American citizens, they enjoy full protection of the law, imo).. if you haven't noticed, Bush's incompetance has just about germinated the war between the Muslims and Christians, and his Crusade is almost validated. Now that Bush has helped spread enmity of the US from A.Q. to the whole Muslim world... ehhh, what's the difference, right? It's not like we are exacting revenge for 9/11... nope, we pretty much said screw it and we are going after the entire Muslim world... of course if we don't now, they will come after us. Yay leadership!!
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:48 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Everclear
Now that Bush has helped spread enmity of the US from A.Q. to the whole Muslim world... ehhh, what's the difference, right? It's not like we are exacting revenge for 9/11... nope, we pretty much said screw it and we are going after the entire Muslim world... of course if we don't now, they will come after us.
Just like they decided to say screw it, let's kill all the infidels. Their (and our) fundamentalist radicals have been keeping these wars going for centuries now, there's no reason to expect it to end without one side wiping out the other.
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:01 PM   #33
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mmm... not sure I believe that on 9/11 the Muslims (in general) hated us as badly as they do now (that is not to say they didn't hate us). Wit htaht said, I don't think Iraq was the best way to go about decalring a war on terrorists, or muslims or the Middle East in general... I didn't believe the WMD stuff, but whatever. Here we are. Do I believe they hated us? Yes. Do I believe conflict was inevitable? Yes. Do I beleive Muslims were responsible in part for 911? Yes. Do I think we went into the whole thing the correct way? No. Bad leadership, didn't look at the whole picture, all the implications, underestimated the enemy... didn't communicate objectives with the American public. Bad leadership. Sure, the leaders aren't to blame (necessarily) for the environmental situation.. but the handling of it was bad, imo.
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Last edited by Everclear; 09-22-2006 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 09-22-2006, 06:37 PM   #34
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So your saying wait till they fuck us up even more before someone does something then blame Bush for that to, like I said he was in a damned if I do damned if I don't situation so he chose to do something instead of wait for people to call for his head later on when it is finally THEIR kids or parents free falling from a sky scraper.

Every war we have ever been in their have been people pissing and moaning and blaming the pres....... 30 years later the pres seems to get better ratings than at the time of the war so....... I doubt I will live 30 years you probably will barring an accident (God forbid) that is when we will really know how effective the presidents decisions were (I bet that IF a Dem is elected next term he/she will get the credit though, just like Bush gets the credit for the planning of 911).
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:43 PM   #35
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Not at all. I don't blame Bush for doing something... I just don't (nor did I at the time) think Iraq was a suitable target. Not everyone's first response would have been "attack Iraq!"... so Bush can have the blame for that, it is well deserved. Personally, I considered Bush's BS Iraq agenda was payback for not electing Bob Dole when we had the chance!
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Old 09-23-2006, 02:39 AM   #36
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I don't know EC I just think hind sight is 20/20 but in the same token we now need to hold the course and make sure we don't bail out on these people AGAIN or we will NEVER get any ME support ever again for any reason.
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Old 09-23-2006, 09:12 AM   #37
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Yeah, and that's what I meant, Ax. Now that we are here, we are here, and how we got here is pretty irrelevant, we just gotta finish what we started. On the other hand, when someone ASKS about Bush's leadership, he gets a big "kiss my butt" from me. I think he is a total piece of poo, and part of "wrapping this up" imo is getting his sorry ass out of office, and getting a capable leader in there. I hope we have the choice of a capable leader come next elections... unfortunately, I think if we do, he/she wouldn't get the votes. that's why we have Bush, instead of Dole People are stupid. ! DOLE 2008!!
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:09 PM   #38
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We would problaby be speaking arabic if it were Kerry though.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:30 PM   #39
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idiot.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:36 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ax
We would problaby be speaking arabic if it were Kerry though.
That's absurd. Even if Kerry is a moron. Rather than think about how we would be under Kerry, I can't help but completely believe we would be better under Dole.. DOLE 2008! Write it in!!
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Old 09-23-2006, 06:12 PM   #41
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Is it absurd EC?

It's getting to the point that English isn't mandatory anymore because it's to hard for some students to learn..... HUH? don't they live here? BUT then look at the other side, they are making foreign language a required elective (HMMMMM what the hell does that mean) via having to take a Spanish, German, French....... course. (I realize that this isn't everywhere but you know as well as I do that once something gets started it's hard to shut down).

Either way I just don't see how Bush could have done anything to much different and still not face ridicule from the Liberal why can't we all just get along clowns.
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Old 09-23-2006, 06:45 PM   #42
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Yeah, the liberals are gonna bash him no matter what. But we would all be speaking Arabic? lol that is what is absurd. I hardly think our entire country's defense and stability depended on George Bush, that is just plain stupid. No single person is that important.
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:39 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Axgar
It's getting to the point that English isn't mandatory anymore because it's to hard for some students to learn..... HUH? don't they live here?
Have any references to that, or did you just feel like making that up?


BUT then look at the other side, they are making foreign language a required elective (HMMMMM what the hell does that mean) via having to take a Spanish, German, French....... course. (I realize that this isn't everywhere but you know as well as I do that once something gets started it's hard to shut down).
And the point being.........?
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Veo the Tard
idiot.
Way to chime in with your witty one liner prick. Nice to see you jump on the Axgar loving bandwagon though. You conform so well.


Idiot.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:02 AM   #45
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In Veo's defense.. what other kind response than "Idiot" should actually be given to..

Originally Posted by Axgar
We would problaby be speaking arabic if it were Kerry though.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:41 AM   #46
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First of all it was an exaggeration you fucking moron, second of all Im not the first person to use one here to drive home a point, 3rd of all its nice to see you pay attention in class glad you could learn something.

I was apparently wrong about the not requiring English, I could have swore I seen something on the news a few years back while in CO about Mexicans (Illegal ones at that) were suing a school district for making them take English courses and it soundes as if they were going to win... can't find it anywhere so I guess I was wrong on that or they didn't win the case not really sure.


My point being to FORCE a kid to learn a second language is..... WE are in AMERICA if we dont want to speak wetback we shouldnt have to...... good enough poiint for you?

Now go kiss some more arabs asses and maybe you will figure out what I meant by we would all be speaking arabic.
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Old 09-24-2006, 02:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Axgar
My point being to FORCE a kid to learn a second language is..... WE are in AMERICA if we dont want to speak wetback we shouldnt have to...... good enough poiint for you?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they're probably trying to educate our children so that they can function in today's society - a society that doesn't just speak 'American'.

I really don't understand you sometimes. Children go to school to learn, first and foremost. You rabidly defend prayer in schools - something that's undeniably secondary to education, and then bat down something that's purely academic, and the reason they're in school in the first place? WTF?
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Old 09-24-2006, 03:02 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Axgar
My point being to FORCE a kid to learn a second language is..... WE are in AMERICA if we dont want to speak wetback we shouldnt have to...... good enough poiint for you?
We also FORCE kids to learn math... we also FORCE kids to learn history... we also FORCE kids to learn biology, and chemistry, and physics, and read literature.

We FORCE kids to learn plenty of things they won't neccessarily use.

So again.. what is your point?
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:48 PM   #49
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...yeha our schools require learning a second language. This area was one of the first to make it mandatory by the end of highschool, then was one of the first to make it mandatory by the end of elementary school. Yup, kids take a second language here all the way through elementary.

Personally I think it's great! It's something students need to compete in a global market, imo. If nothing else, they can communicate when they go to Wal-Mart here
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:55 PM   #50
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You can force them to learn a language BUT you cant force immigrants to learn english............ LOL yep
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