Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-02-2003, 07:33 PM   #1
Aackman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 170
Default Bill Moyers on Patriotism ~ your thoughts?

Moyers on Patriotism and the Flag
NOW with Bill Moyers

Friday 28 February 2003

I put the flag in my lapel tonight. First time. Until now I haven't thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for everyone to see. It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good Americans. Sometimes I would offer a small prayer of gratitude that I had been born in a country whose institutions sustained me, whose armed forces protected me, and whose ideals inspired me; I offered my heart's affections in return. It no more occurred to me to flaunt the flag on my chest than it did to pin my mother's picture on my lapel to prove her son's love. Mother knew where I stood; so does my country. I even tuck a valentine in my tax returns on April 15.

So what's this flag doing here? Well, I put it on to take it back. The flag's been hijacked and turned into a logo - the trademark of a monopoly on patriotism. On those Sunday morning talk shows, official chests appear adorned with the flag as if it is the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. And during the State of the Union, did you notice Bush and Cheney wearing the flag? How come? No administration's patriotism is ever in doubt, only its policies. And the flag bestows no immunity from error. When I see flags sprouting on official lapels, I think of the time in China when I saw Mao's Little Red Book on every official's desk, omnipresent and unread.

But more galling than anything are all those moralistic ideologues in Washington sporting the flag in their lapels while writing books and running Web sites and publishing magazines attacking dissenters as un-American. They are people whose ardor for war grows disproportionately to their distance from the fighting. They're in the same league as those swarms of corporate lobbyists wearing flags and prowling Capitol Hill for tax breaks even as they call for more spending on war.

So I put this on as a modest riposte to men with flags in their lapels who shoot missiles from the safety of Washington think tanks, or argue that sacrifice is good as long as they don't have to make it, or approve of bribing governments to join the coalition of the willing (after they first stash the cash). I put it on to remind myself that not every patriot thinks we should do to the people of Baghdad what bin Laden did to us. The flag belongs to the country, not to the government. And it reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war -- except in self-defense -- is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and diplomatic skill. Come to think of it, standing up to your government can mean standing up for your country.

What do you think?

-Bill Moyers
Aackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2003, 10:27 PM   #2
cnjmorris
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 925
Default Re: Bill Moyers on Patriotism ~ your thoughts?

Originally posted by Aackman
And it reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war -- except in self-defense -- is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and diplomatic skill.
Define "self-defense" to the victims and families if 9/11. Define "self-defense" to the women who were raped in Kuwait, and the children who were murdered.

I find it ironic that the same cowards that advocate sitting by and waiting until we and our economy are the victims are the same people who have the nerve to acuse politicians of being cowards because they give the orders instead of fighting on the front lines.

What do I think? I think that the people who are so quick to criticize STILL have not given any good alternatives.

I have asked before and still want to know -- WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WE DO INSTEAD????
cnjmorris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2003, 01:43 AM   #3
Syng Da Troll
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 130
Displaying the flag on yourself is not to prove you are patriotic. Why does ANYONE have to prove they are patriotic? They don't. Why display Old Glory from your residence or your business? Maybe people are showing respect for:

-Our founding fathers and our heritage
-The many brave men and women that strive to protect our freedoms
-DEMOCRACY!

I have stayed pretty quiet while reading many interesting posts in this forum. Those that believe that that United States should back away and leave Iraq alone must believe that the Iraqi people should live under Saddam. I personally don't care if Saddam or Iraq is involved in the attack on the towers. I don't care if Saddam will EVER attack the United States or our allies. Saddam is a MURDERER, the United States is a super power that have assisted oppressed people in the past, The Middle East is not dealing with the situation in their region.. WE NEED to intervene.

The United States is not attacking the Iraqi people.. WAKE UP! We are attacking the regime in Iraq and that devil himself Saddam. Many of those opposed to this position consider themselves compasionate and agents of peace... your views are the direct opposite of what you claim to be.

I guess that most of your opposed to this war would allow a neighbor to beat the hell out of his wife. You wouldn't call the police.. you wouldn't knock on the door and ask him what the hell he is doing. You have no backbone.. you are oppressed in your own fear of what might happen to you.. SELFISH! In other words, you would wait a few more weeks, months, years and see if he can put her in the hospital. Oh wait, it isn't your problem... it is hers. People are oppressed here, we need to police this situation for humanity and the lives of the Iraqi people. Get out of your confort zone and put yourself in their shoes.

Nuff Said
__________________
If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities. - VOLTAIRE

Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows. - DAVID T. WOLF

Freedom is the most contagious virus known to man. - HUBERT H. HUMPHREY

Syng Alyng *RETIRED* - 65 TROLL Shadowknight
Syng Da Troll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2003, 06:54 AM   #4
Flub Man
Here's to you liberals!!!
 
Flub Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Geaux Tigers
Posts: 3,327
One of the many things that I don't understand is why it is so controversial to wear/display/show allegiance to the Amercian flag.

If someone wears an AIDS/breast cancer/<insert cause here> ribbon noone says anything about it. As a matter of fact they applauded for it.

Why is that not afforded to those who choose to wear an American flag pin or show some other support for our troops?
__________________
Dirty Ol' Flub <retired>
My Sports Blog

"Starkville is the Indian word for Trailer Park."
~ Skip Bertman

'I was just wrong. Flub you are correct.'
~bumble
Flub Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2003, 08:00 AM   #5
hymdall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 690
"Saddam is a MURDERER, the United States is a super power that have assisted oppressed people in the past, The Middle East is not dealing with the situation in their region.. WE NEED to intervene. "

Our status as a "Superpower" does not give us legal authority to intervene or interfere with the self determination of a region or a people. We may have the moral need to go in there and right a wrong, but why should we?

The Iraqi people have chosen to live under this fool's reign, the people of the Middle East have chosen to allow his rule to continue. Why should the US go in and make choices for the Middle East, that the residents have not?

The comparison of Iraq and my neighbor, are not relevant. My neighbor is subject to the laws governing my community, my state and my country. These laws are formed by our communities, states and country by our choice, our self determination.

Our only justification for invading Iraq is the threat the current regime exhibits towards the US and her allies. Her refusal to disarm, destroy, and account for weapons of mass destruction give us credence to act. Helping a people that obviously do not want help, does not.

As to the topic of this thread, I'll show just as much if not more respect for wearing a flag lapel in support of the troops as I would any other ribbon for whatever cause.

Hym
hymdall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2003, 05:40 PM   #6
Hirushi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 315
you know what when i was a little boy i say a bigger kid beat the snot out of a smaller boy and take his book bag

when i got home i told my dad and he said
"well what did you do about it"

i said nothing it didnt involve me

he said "i have never been so disapointed in all my life"

because maybe i would have gotten the *^(%$ kicked out of me but at least would have tried to do what is right

all that evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing
__________________
USMC RETIRED
When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stewart Mill




Hirushi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2003, 10:32 PM   #7
Syng Da Troll
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 130
><Our status as a "Superpower" does not give us legal authority to intervene or interfere with the self determination of a region or a people. We may have the moral need to go in there and right a wrong, but why should we?><

Define who is the body that oversees this "legal authority" please. Well unfortunately we have been the World Police for some time now.. so if there is a problem.. the US are expected to solve it. Personally I wish the region would take care of the situation and leave us out of it.

><The comparison of Iraq and my neighbor, are not relevant. My neighbor is subject to the laws governing my community, my state and my country. These laws are formed by our communities, states and country by our choice, our self determination><

Of course they are not relevant to you.. it doesn't affect you. And neighbors/dictators don't break any laws if no one reports them and more people suffer because of this selfishness and fear. Actually the laws are not formed by our comminuties etc.. we have representatives that make these laws.. doesn't mean that the majority of the people agree/abide by them. And most of the time people are gutless to recall or vote people out because it doesn't affect them. Heck half of the population doesn't even vote!

><Helping a people that obviously do not want help, does not.><

This is the most absurd thing I have heard. I guess that because Saddam was reelected Dictator with 100% of the vote tells you the people want him in power and they are happy with his rule. Iraq is not the United States.. where are the oppostion groups that are not happy? They have either fled the country under possibility of death, kept their mouths shut to avoid death, or DEAD! THINK for a minute.. how absurd.
__________________
If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities. - VOLTAIRE

Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows. - DAVID T. WOLF

Freedom is the most contagious virus known to man. - HUBERT H. HUMPHREY

Syng Alyng *RETIRED* - 65 TROLL Shadowknight
Syng Da Troll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.