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Old 08-05-2004, 09:42 AM   #1
Aackman
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Default McCain speaks up

My hat's off to Mc Cain for putting integrity > party politics.

McCain Condemns Anti-Kerry Ad
By Ron Fournier
The Associated Press

Thursday 05 August 2004

McCain calls ad criticizing Kerry's military service 'dishonest and dishonorable.'

Washington - Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

"I wish they hadn't done it," McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know if they knew all the facts."

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad."


Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt."

The White House did not immediately address McCain's call that they repudiate the spot.

Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign, said Kerry's record and statements on the war on terrorism - not his service in Vietnam - are fair game. "The Bush campaign never has and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam," he said.

In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because he believes it's bad for the political system. "It reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal," he said.

"I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's.

Jim Rassmann, an Army veteran who was saved by Kerry, said there were only six crewmates who served with Kerry on his boat. Five support his candidacy and one is deceased.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040805_751.html
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:51 AM   #2
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So when Moveon.org compares Bush to adolf hitler it means Kerry has nothing to do with it, when an ad is played against Kerry disputing his military history its a Bush tactic?


Least Mc Cain doesnt think Bush had anything to do with it.

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad."


Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt."
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:05 AM   #3
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He calls the ad dishonest, but cites no claims as false with anything to back it up. He later says it opens old wounds, and I don't doubt that it does. Vietnam's most terrible legacy is the pain that persists to this day for so many who served there.

However, this entire Swiftboat Veterans For Truth movement began because Kerry posted a picture of himself surrounded by the other swifities in his unit without their permission. They took issue with their photos appearing in Kerry campaign literature when they didn't support his candidacy. They requested that Kerry stop using the picture and he refused. Not wanting to be seen as lending their support to Kerry, they set out to make their case.

Yup, they have been advised by consultants who have republican ties. They receive donations from people who support Bush. McCain calls them dishonest. But nobody has been able to challenge their claims with any evidence or documentation yet.

Like I said, they could always be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing it yet. Next week the book comes out and we can judge for ourselves. And my offer stand for Lur, say the word and I'll buy you a copy so you don't have to spend any money supporting these folks... I could certainly understand that.
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:08 AM   #4
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Have these swiftmate veterans done anything besides lend their name to a smear book? have the vets done tv interviews about this issue?
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:23 AM   #5
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www.swiftvets.com
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by LairdRagna
McCain calls them dishonest. But nobody has been able to challenge their claims with any evidence or documentation yet.
I thought the book wasn't out until September 25th? If that is true, how can the claims in the book be refuted by McCain unless he was sent a pre-release copy of the book?

Furthermore, here you have a good Republican, McCain, condemning an obvious smear campaign and you jokers are ignoring it.

BTW, remember when I wrote that you post unsubstantiated quotes and sources, only to turn around and treat them as gospel truth later, Laird? You are doing it and it is very dishonest.
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:47 AM   #7
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Well if in fact those men did serve with Kerry and are saying this then yeah it may be dirty pool to use this , but Kerry is attacking Bush on 7 minutes of response time during 9/11. Id say Kerry deserves the same treatement he is giving others.
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:51 AM   #8
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I actually agree with you Chuk. I have stated this before, but I am sickened by the fucking smear campaigning on both sides. This will be the last year I support Democrats, that's for certain. Oh, and Republicans will not get my support, too.
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:55 AM   #9
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I've seen reports the book is due out August 15, unless the release date has been changed. I am not dismissing McCain's claims, which incidently are that the ad is dishonest - not the book. But as the book will make the case for the claims in the ad, its reasonable to infer that if McCain feels the ad is dishonest he will view the book much the same.

However, how can he make the claim at this point that the ad is dishonest if he has not seen the book which makes the case? If he had advance access to the book, quite possible as the general public has seen at least one chapter already, why hasn't he offered examples of the dishonesty? Seems to me that if McCain had proof that the claims were lies his presentation of such proof would destroy the book and group faster than you can blink BECAUSE McCain is as respected as he is by both sides.

So far he has called the book dishonest and dishonorable - no examples given - and claims it opens old wounds, as I'm sure it will. However, sometimes the truth does hurt and sometimes scabs need to be pulled away to clean a wound that is still infected underneath. IF the claims are true, then the record should be set straight out of fairness to all veterans. IF the claims are false, than those who would seek to sully a man's service should be exposed.
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:11 AM   #10
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Laird, this book has already been released.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...475258-8783362

Bush has never denied that he secretly negotiated with the Taliban government so that US oil companies could build a pipeline.

If you like I can produce literally dozens of books currently in print all bashing Bush, all claiming to have facts, all citing various sources and containing testimonies? You could read each and everyone of them and come back posting where they are wrong. So, let's follow your logic, shall we? Until you refute each and everyone of those books the contents of them are true. Sound right?
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:21 AM   #11
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Umm..talk about propaganda. The Taleban pipeline deal was started during the Clinton admin. Just a Moore myth, he conveniently left that out to make it look like Bush was responsible. Just nothing but bullshit and more proof of Moore's disgusting lies. Note the date of this article:


***************************
Taleban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline

The 1,300km pipeline will carry gas across Afghanistan's harsh terrain
A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan.

A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas.

Unocal says it has agreements both with Turkmenistan to sell its gas and with Pakistan to buy it.



The Afghan economy has been devasted by 20 years of civil war
But, despite the civil war in Afghanistan, Unocal has been in competition with an Argentinian firm, Bridas, to actually construct the pipeline.

Last month, the Argentinian firm, Bridas, announced that it was close to signing a two-billion dollar deal to build the pipeline, which would carry gas 1,300 kilometres from Turkmenistan to Pakistan, across Afghanistan.

In May, Taleban-controlled radio in Kabul said a visiting delegation from an Argentinian company had announced that pipeline construction would start "soon".




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:56 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Bush has never denied that he secretly negotiated with the Taliban government so that US oil companies could build a pipeline.
Alauradana, Luri's statement seems to indicate some level of involvement with Bush, whereas your article merely indicates that the negotiations took place while Clinton was in office, but in no way indicates that he or any member of his administration was involved on any level.

That said, of course, I haven't read the book that Luri linked, and he may well have meant something entirely different from what I quoted.
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:00 PM   #13
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I'd like to see McCain run for president again this year.
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by FanonFaythunder
Alauradana, Luri's statement seems to indicate some level of involvement with Bush, whereas your article merely indicates that the negotiations took place while Clinton was in office, but in no way indicates that he or any member of his administration was involved on any level.

That said, of course, I haven't read the book that Luri linked, and he may well have meant something entirely different from what I quoted.
The point I was making with the book is that I can produce literally dozens of books currently in print all bashing Bush, all claiming to have facts, all citing various sources and containing testimonies. Following Lard's logic, all those books are true until refuted by Bush point by point. This all has to do with Lard insisting that an unreleased book (afaik) that he has a chapter or two out of is truth.
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:51 PM   #15
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Well I can't dismiss their claims without reading the books so I won't venture to until I have had the chance to read them.

Not having read the books you reference I will need to ask you some questions. Who is making these allegations? SBV is comprised of dozens of swifties who served in Kerry's units, went on patrol with him, commanded him, served beside him, treated his wounds.. They offer things like afteraction reports, deployment orders, medical records and eyewitness accounts to bolster their claims. All of which directly deal with the issue of Kerry and his service, not guilt by association, hearsay, conjecture or any other such "proof" that many conspiracy theorists seem to use quite often. I am not saying this is the case with the books you cite, haven't read them. I'm asking you what type of proof do they use?

Suggest one of them you think is most relevant and I'll order a copy along with my copy of the SBV's book. Fair enough?
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:57 PM   #16
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So when Moveon.org compares Bush to adolf hitler
Actually, Moveon.org didn't make this comparison. They had a contest for filmmakers. One of the filmmakers did this and Moveon.org quickly removed it from their site because they did not think it was appropriate. They did this without being asked to as well.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by LairdRagna
Well I can't dismiss their claims without reading the books so I won't venture to until I have had the chance to read them.
No shit? Neither can you support the claims until you have read the books. That's the point you idiot.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by FanonFaythunder
Alauradana, Luri's statement seems to indicate some level of involvement with Bush, whereas your article merely indicates that the negotiations took place while Clinton was in office, but in no way indicates that he or any member of his administration was involved on any level.

That said, of course, I haven't read the book that Luri linked, and he may well have meant something entirely different from what I quoted.

I actually found several sites that stated Clinton was in the know, this was on the books before Bush. However, I was not familiar with any of the sites so I did not quote that. Point is, this was there before Bush--but people like to pin it on him. Just more propaganda.

Luri is right on that one thing, both sides are slinging crap out of context to make the other side look bad. For example, TH Kerry does not control Heinz, if the company is outsourcing, she cannot do anything about it--so that is hardly Kerry's fault as this pipeline is not down to Bush.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
No shit? Neither can you support the claims until you have read the books. That's the point you idiot.
Actually I've read the chapter that was released and have limited my comments to that chapter. I've stated their arguments and have said they may be proven wrong and if that is the case I will join the pile-on because the only thing more despicable than falsifying one's war record for gain would be disparaging somebody's war record who was deserving for political gain.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:28 PM   #20
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Yeah, Lard. You are such the scholar.

And, of course you would never, ever, toss out unsubstantiated propoganda before checking it out first and then arguing it as facts.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:29 PM   #21
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I dont know about you guys, but i think smear campains are the funnest of all. Let the insults fly, lol. That ad is pretty good. To the point, backed by official sounding quips with no reasons given, just solid backing. Its like a finely crafted verbal dagger. When it comes to stabbing at someones campaign, this would push a few fence sitters one way, but most serious people have to laugh at it.
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