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Old 05-02-2003, 11:39 PM   #1
Aackman
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Default Did Our Leaders Lie to Us? Do We Even Care?

Caelie stated in another thread: I'm with Trech and Trith...I LOVE BUSH...the man can do no wrong and all the posting in the world will not change my mind.
The remark inspired me to post this article, which I found timely and relevant:

Did Our Leaders Lie to Us? Do We Even Care?
by Robert Steinback
Miami Herald

Wednesday 30 April 2003

Now that wasn't so bad, was it?"

One of my pro-war acquaintances said this in a reassuring, not gloating, manner. His tone was a congenial gesture in the wake of our heated arguments over the Iraq War in recent weeks; we had remained tensely civil.

I shrugged. Indeed, the shooting war in Iraq had -- from an American vantage point -- gone well. Relatively few casualties on our side; surviving Iraqis clearly pleased to be rid of Saddam Hussein, if wary of our presence.

This summation, of course, ignores many unanswered questions. So I asked him one.

"Would it bother you if we were to discover that George Bush lied about the case for going to war?" I asked.

He knew what I was referring to. His blunt answer left my jaw hanging.

"Everyone knows he lied about weapons of mass destruction being the point of the war."

Just a few weeks ago, any statement from me that Bush's case for war was riddled with inconsistencies and illogic would have brought swift and fierce condemnation from this fellow.

Now, basking in the glow of military conquest -- and confronted by a thus-far futile search for chemical and biological weapons -- this hawk breezily conceded the point while also waving it away as inconsequential.

Have we become a country that wears its hypocrisy openly and proudly?

We Americans have always had a penchant for creative self-delusion. We chafe, for example, at corruption in government, yet routinely reelect the scoundrels who perpetrate it. We demand both services and cuts in the taxes that pay for them.

But it seems the agony of Sept. 11 has pushed us into an altogether new realm, where we don't even care if our rhetoric makes sense, as long as we're led to a feel-good conclusion. The joy of kicking butt obliterates the need to make an honest case for war.

Wasn't it just four years ago -- I reminded my acquaintance -- that a roiling posse of critics piously preached how utterly unacceptable it was for a president to be excused even for a piddling lie that had absolutely no impact on the lives of any non-Beltway American? Bill Clinton was impeached -- impeached! -- for not admitting an intern had performed a sex act on him in the Oval Office.

Now there is plausible doubt that George Bush and Colin Powell were telling us the whole truth when they pronounced, not as a possibility but a fact, that Hussein had these terrible weapons and could at any moment instigate a terrible strike on America.

Bush dismissed the efforts of chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, whose teams searched for evidence of the chemical and biological weapons that Hussein allegedly possessed, and found nothing. We must go to war anyway, Bush told us, because Hussein refuses to disarm.

Well, where is it all?

Our troops swept across Iraq in three weeks and secured oil wells within hours. Didn't we have a priority list of potential weapons depots to seize and secure? Did we even know where to start looking?

Now the administration is all but giving up the search, saying it hopes Iraqi informants will eventually lead us to the stuff. If we didn't know where it was, how did we know it was so grave a threat that war was essential?

Did Bush mislead us? Was the American public duped into supporting a war that killed 128 Americans, 31 Britons and thousands of Iraqis, damaged U.S. prestige around the world and may have worsened, rather than improved, U.S. security?

Oh, who cares -- we won the war!

At least Bush wasn't lying about sex in the Oval Office! We'd have impeached him for that.

And, hey, Bush wasn't under oath, as was Clinton -- although it would be nice to believe swearing honesty wouldn't be necessary when a president addresses the nation.

I don't regard my hawkish acquaintance as a hypocrite; for sure, his brutal honesty makes him a rare breed.

But we're heading for big trouble as a nation if we aren't even concerned that our heads of state may be manipulating us by manipulating the truth.

In a nation where hypocrisy is rewarded, expect more lies.
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:33 AM   #2
Chiteng
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Well I certainly do care =)
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:13 AM   #3
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"Everyone knows he lied about weapons of mass destruction being the point of the war."
First off this article should have never said "Everyone". I don't think he has lied about the point of war being about WMR.

But we're heading for big trouble as a nation if we aren't even concerned that our heads of state may be manipulating us by manipulating the truth.
I can't think of one President in the past 40 years that isn't guilty of this in some form. It starts with their campaign speeches. They never really say or do things in the manner which they present it to us upfront.

Keep digging.
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:45 AM   #4
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Originally posted by Caelie
First off this article should have never said "Everyone". I don't think he has lied about the point of war being about WMR.



I can't think of one President in the past 40 years that isn't guilty of this in some form. It starts with their campaign speeches. They never really say or do things in the manner which they present it to us upfront.

Keep digging.

So because someone else lied, that means we dont hold Bush accountable? WRONG.

Also I am quite curious about when Ford and Carter
lied to get us into a war. Please explain.
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Old 05-03-2003, 09:37 AM   #5
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So because someone else lied, that means we dont hold Bush accountable? WRONG.
His point is why do you expect more from Bush?
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Old 05-03-2003, 10:02 AM   #6
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So because someone else lied, that means we dont hold Bush accountable? WRONG.
No, we don't hold Bush accountable. You and some others hold Bush accountable. Its pretty plain that there is nothing this man could do to make you like him. You will search till the end of time to prove your point. I feel the same way about most Democratic leaders except I don't spend alot of time worrying about something I have no control over. For the last, ummm I don't know how many years when a Democrat got elected as President, I went on with life. I went to work, got my paycheck, paid my bills and just hoped that in the next election my vote would count. Its no biggie. You can call him a lier, a cheat, a thief or anything else you like. Its called Freedom of Speech. You should know all about that, but it doesn't mean that people are listening to you.

Also I am quite curious about when Ford and Carter
Chiting, your smarter than this. I didn't imply that they all lied about a war. You are way to hung up on that. I implied that they all say one thing and do another in some form. Whether it be about what they are going to do about education, taxes, social security etc....they all try and present a beautiful picture, and in the end they may not have the backing from the senate and legislature to do what they proposed to do.
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Old 05-03-2003, 01:16 PM   #7
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Let's not forget the fact that if this was indeed a lie it would also have been to the entire UN body and for some reason I don't think they would shrug it off quite as easy. Also I feel that lying about recieving oral sex or making promises during election time is a lot less sinister than leading a nation into a (would be) illegitimate war. Then again I don't really see everything as "Black or White" and that may just be me /shrug.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:15 PM   #8
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Originally posted by Caelie
No, we don't hold Bush accountable. You and some others hold Bush accountable. Its pretty plain that there is nothing this man could do to make you like him. You will search till the end of time to prove your point. I feel the same way about most Democratic leaders except I don't spend alot of time worrying about something I have no control over. For the last, ummm I don't know how many years when a Democrat got elected as President, I went on with life. I went to work, got my paycheck, paid my bills and just hoped that in the next election my vote would count. Its no biggie. You can call him a lier, a cheat, a thief or anything else you like. Its called Freedom of Speech. You should know all about that, but it doesn't mean that people are listening to you.



Chiting, your smarter than this. I didn't imply that they all lied about a war. You are way to hung up on that. I implied that they all say one thing and do another in some form. Whether it be about what they are going to do about education, taxes, social security etc....they all try and present a beautiful picture, and in the end they may not have the backing from the senate and legislature to do what they proposed to do.

You are quite wrong. If he would boot the convicted crimminals out of his admin, stop trying to line the pockets of people who already have money, AND SOLVE THE UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEM,
I would vote for him.
Solve it NOW, not wait 6 months hoping it solves itself, and then claiming that he made it better.
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Old 05-04-2003, 04:36 PM   #9
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You are quite wrong. If he would boot the convicted crimminals out of his admin, stop trying to line the pockets of people who already have money, AND SOLVE THE UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEM,
Who are these convicted criminals? Thats a new one that I haven't heard before. Were they convicted of a felony or misdemeanors (sp) and were they the ones that Clinton pardoned as he was leaving office?
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Old 05-04-2003, 05:15 PM   #10
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Originally posted by Caelie
Who are these convicted criminals? Thats a new one that I haven't heard before. Were they convicted of a felony or misdemeanors (sp) and were they the ones that Clinton pardoned as he was leaving office?
Start with Admiral Poindexter...you know, the felon from the Reagan admin? He was pardoned by Bush Sr.

Nice to have freinds isnt it? Or is executive pardon only bad when done by Clinton?
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:15 AM   #11
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Did our leaders lie to us? Of course they did, they always have. Has your boss ever lied to you, to get you to do something? How about your spouse, or your children, or your parents, or ever have you ever lied to yourself??

I agree, lying is wrong, and just because we all do it, doesn't make it right. But what do you propose the penalty should be? We couldn't keep a person in the Oval office a week if we made the rule they would have to step down if they lied. We would be holding congressional elections monthly if a congressperson had to step down if they lied.

So the question begs, what to do about it? Since the attacks of September 11, 2001, the President has to be more careful about what he let's "slide" in the way of intelligence. If he feels that there is a threat, should he act or should he let it "slide"? That is a very tough line to walk, I sure wouldn't want to do it. President Bush has never been to Iraq, yet alone make inspections there. He has to rely on the US Intelligence Services. He gets the data, confers with his advisors, and has to come up with a decision. Then he has to "sell" that to the American People. Do I believe that President Bush believed there were WMD? Absolutely. Does that mean they were absolutelty there? Or course not. Does Iraq support terrorism? Absolutely. And removing Saddam Hussein, although reducing resources to terrorists, does not reduce terrorism all that much, there are plenty of other resources out there. Did the Gulf War 2 attack and victory show the world that the United States is no longer just going to "let it slide" when threats are made upon us? Absolutely. And for that, I am pleased!!!
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:35 AM   #12
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No, we don't hold Bush accountable. You and some others hold Bush accountable. Its pretty plain that there is nothing this man could do to make you like him.
This troubles me. What I'm hearing is that you aren't willing to hold your President accountable for his actions. Give him a blank check and the largest military in the world. Give him all the hate and vengeance in his heart and the largest military and don't hold him accountable for it. Sounds like Hitler lives once again.
Is this the belief of all conservatives? I certainly don't think so. I believe this statement is simply wrong.

Bush must be accountable for his actions. If Clinton was held accountable for a trist which has absolutely nothing to do with the Presidency, Bush absolutely must be held accountable for any actions taken by the office of the President.
Since we are on this topic you have to remember that we handled impeaching Clinton wrong. Clinton's actions were not by the office of the Presidency but by the man. You can not impeach a man. You have to impeach the office. They were worthy of censure by all means. Not worthy of impeachment. The office of Presidency wasn't compromised at all nor was the nation.
Bush's actions to start a war are actions by the office of the President. They are not an individual's actions. There is a distinct difference between the two. If this war was proven to violate law either international or domestic its a highly impeachable act. Clinton should not be held accountable to the public for his personal actions. He should be held accountable to the public for his Presidential actions. Bush should as well. In fact, if Bush decided to cheat on his wife in the White House, I feel it would be wrong to see him impeached for lieing about it.
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Old 05-05-2003, 08:13 PM   #13
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Why does truth suddenly depend on whether or not someone is a fan of the President? Who cares if you like someone? It's not necessary for me to like or dislike someone in order to hold them accountable for their statements and actions. I critiqued Clinton for his conduct and his statements about the Lewinsky Affair, and I was a fan of his Presidency. Why can't you folks acknowledge the bad acts and foolishness of Duh-Bya? It's really weird.

As for the lies of the Bush Administration, here's some more ammunition. And it just happens to feed into my favorite refrain that the media isn't liberal.

MSNBC retracts a story critical of Bush
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Old 05-05-2003, 08:30 PM   #14
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Nice Link Raed. So media does a tap dance as well.

Keep it comming.
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Old 05-06-2003, 09:52 PM   #15
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My favorite was found on MSN one day. They juxtaposed two stories next to one another.

1. Record unemployment figures at X.X% (I forget the figures)
2. US steps up war footing in Iraq.

The two stories were only next to one another for about an hour before the liberal media decided that it wasn't appropriate to put those two stories next to one another - especially after the not-so-polite phone call from Mr. Rove.
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:44 PM   #16
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Debating an Editorial is time wasted.

Try posting factual articals instead of bullshit leftist opinions.

Do any of you know the concept of knowledge>?



GOD BLESS AMERICA
GOD BLESS PRESIDENT BUSH

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Old 05-06-2003, 10:48 PM   #17
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally posted by Raedwulf
My favorite was found on MSN one day. They juxtaposed two stories next to one another.

1. Record unemployment figures at X.X% (I forget the figures)
2. US steps up war footing in Iraq.

The two stories were only next to one another for about an hour before the liberal media decided that it wasn't appropriate to put those two stories next to one another - especially after the not-so-polite phone call from Mr. Rove.
And you question why I call you Ignorant?



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GOD BLESS PRESIDENT BUSH

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Old 05-07-2003, 10:08 AM   #18
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Originally posted by Caelie
First off this article should have never said "Everyone". I don't think he has lied about the point of war being about WMR.



I can't think of one President in the past 40 years that isn't guilty of this in some form. It starts with their campaign speeches. They never really say or do things in the manner which they present it to us upfront.

Keep digging.
First off.. you take his QUOTE out of context.. and it was just that.. a QUOTE.. from someone! That's what the guy said.. that's what he relayed to the readers.. YOU are the one who needs to keep digging.. fuck!

And yea.. sorry if I think that lying to spend billions of dollars of our money and hundreds of american lives to orchestrate an illegal and unprovoked war on a pretty much defenseless country (yes yes.. I know.. Saddam is/was a bad guy.. we all get that part..) is FAR worse than lying about getting a blowjob from your secretary.
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