Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-17-2005, 06:27 AM   #1
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Default The reality of USA Economics

What is the reality of US Economics?

People like Chuk will have you believe that all evils are foisted by involving
the Gov. His answer to the evils of Capitalism, is that they dont matter.
Let the buyer beware.

We have less that one century of an attempt at Communism....one could argue that Russia was hardly an ideal testbed.

However we have had Three THOUSAND years of Capitalism in its many and varied forms.

When Chuk speaks of Capitalism, he refers to PURE Capitalism.
The IDEAL. But like Pure Socialism, the Ideal doesnt exist.

Ideal Capitalism does NOT include, Monopoly, Collusion, Back Room Dealing, Price Fixxing, Black markets etc etc etc

In NONE of his many diatribes on this topic, does Chuk give us a SOLUTION
for the evils of Capitalism. Example - Judicial Corruption.

No Judge since Cato or Possibly Tomas Moore has a judge NOT been
influenced by events.

To Chuk, Dow Chemical can pollute your back yard, and avoid ramifications.
He sees no evil in doing that.

'I' do. Right and Wrong as 'ideals' still exist, no matter what the economic climate.


In 1792, in France, a man with a 'noble' title, did NOT have to pay taxxes.
Thus, the 'money' gravitated to men who were able to obtain 'titles'
(think of them as exemptions)
Eventually the majority of the existing money became 'untaxable'
and France was unable to pay its debts and collapsed.

What I see happening in the USA now is a similar situation.
It is politicly unacceptable to tax the people who actually have the money.
No they dont have titles. They have something far better. POWER.

In fact they manipulate the system to make themselves even RICHER.
As if life itself had no other goal.

Money is a mechanism to ration resources. Think about that.
What are these people ACTUALLY doing?

The ONLY solution is to remove that power from those that are abusing it.
No matter how painfull it may be. There is no other answer.

Chuk will say 'They can hurt you, if you do that' and indeed, they can.
But paying blackmail is inherently unstable, AND foolish.
You cannot pay it forever.

Something will have to give.
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 08:49 AM   #2
SupportTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ottawa. AKA, SUCK CENTRAL!
Posts: 3,344
usa inheritance laws do fairly good job against familys ending up with all the money over long term.
__________________
Everyone has The Right to MY opinion!
Everyone also has the right to be Stupid every now and then. Some people Don't know how Not to abuse that!

70 Warrior - Affliction

If someone tells you it's OK to lie. How do you know they aren't lying?
SupportTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:05 AM   #3
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by SupportTank
usa inheritance laws do fairly good job against familys ending up with all the money over long term.
They do nothing for Corporate holding and other entities however
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:16 AM   #4
Everclear
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 6,910
Honestly, right now I see very interesting trends in the U.S. economy. Thanks to corporate scandal, and the plight of Arthur Anderson and many others, I have been exposed to opportunity that I never would have thought possible a couple of years ago. While working on my masters, I have had the priviledge of being approached not only by the treasury department, not only by the IRS, and not only by the FBI... but I almost fell over when I recieved correspondance from Earnst and Young.

While I contribute none of this opportunity to the white House admin, and most of it to circumstance, I do believe it has reinforced my view that the redeeming grace of this country lies in its wonderfully convoluted justice system. =D
Everclear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:17 AM   #5
Valleycrest
Defrocked Irish priest
 
Valleycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 659
Do you just randomnly hit the enter key when you post?
Valleycrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:26 AM   #6
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,564
http://www.filecabi.net/v/file/pimpslap/wmv
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:27 AM   #7
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
We have less that one century of an attempt at Communism....one could argue that Russia was hardly an ideal testbed.
Communism will always fail because humans are not altrustic beings toward anyone they don't know. It has nothing to do with resources, the intelligence of the leaders, or any of that crap. It's human nature, plain and simple, and it is incompatible with communism.

However we have had Three THOUSAND years of Capitalism in its many and varied forms.
Uh, ok. I guess it's really easy to bash capitalism if you can simply point to every failed economy in the history of mankind, label it capitalism, and say "see, I told you so".

In NONE of his many diatribes on this topic, does Chuk give us a SOLUTION for the evils of Capitalism. Example - Judicial Corruption.
You need to define "capitalism" since it appears that you have quite a broad definition.

In 1792, in France, a man with a 'noble' title, did NOT have to pay taxxes.
Yeah and the Feudalism that existed in France prior to the French Revolution was somehow "capitalism"?

Thus, the 'money' gravitated to men who were able to obtain 'titles'
(think of them as exemptions)
Eventually the majority of the existing money became 'untaxable'
and France was unable to pay its debts and collapsed.

What I see happening in the USA now is a similar situation.
It is politicly unacceptable to tax the people who actually have the money.
Is that why the highest wage earners pay, by far, the majority share of the taxes in the US?

Money is a mechanism to ration resources.
I think of it as allocating capital. "Rationing resources" implies a closed-system view on economic output, which is just ignorant anti-capitalist gobbledigook. (Yeah well that's how I spell it).

Think about that. What are these people ACTUALLY doing?
You mean the wealthy? They are revolutionizing the world. They create new widgets, find new ways to get them to us, faster and cheaper, find ways to customize them better than before, find ways to make them last longer or cost less to produce, shit like that...

The ONLY solution is to remove that power from those that are abusing it. No matter how painfull it may be. There is no other answer.
Viva la revoluciόn!
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 10:12 AM   #8
Keldarn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 584
You mean the wealthy? They are revolutionizing the world. They create new widgets, find new ways to get them to us, faster and cheaper, find ways to customize them better than before, find ways to make them last longer or cost less to produce, shit like that...
I have to respectfully disagree here. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of the new widgets, dinglehoppers, and thingamajigs are designed by regular John Q. Public. A lot of the time old John is working for a large company (3M, P&G, Brystol Meyers, etc.), and it's the upper tier of that company that gets the "wealth" from that particular widget.
__________________
Sensei Blaesteil
Keldarn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 10:18 AM   #9
FafnerMorell
Warrior 4 the working-day
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,629
Originally Posted by Keldarn
I have to respectfully disagree here. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of the new widgets, dinglehoppers, and thingamajigs are designed by regular John Q. Public. A lot of the time old John is working for a large company (3M, P&G, Brystol Meyers, etc.), and it's the upper tier of that company that gets the "wealth" from that particular widget.
Well, Microsoft, Dell, Intel, Google, Amazon, etc have made a fair number of millionaires out of the regular Joh Q. Public's who were there at the start. It might depend a bit on how you define "wealthy" though... a million isn't all that hard to come by (especially if you're talking net worth as opposed to cash on hand).
__________________
Fafner Wabbitslayer, Retired Shaman of Reviction, Erollisi Marr/Morell Thule
"This story shall the good man teach his son;...
From this day to the ending of the world,"
-- William Shakespeare, Henvy V, Act 4, Scene 3
FafnerMorell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 10:45 AM   #10
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by FafnerMorell
Well, Microsoft, Dell, Intel, Google, Amazon, etc have made a fair number of millionaires out of the regular Joh Q. Public's who were there at the start. It might depend a bit on how you define "wealthy" though... a million isn't all that hard to come by (especially if you're talking net worth as opposed to cash on hand).
Microsoft has STOLEN and COPIED all their money makers. Get a clue really.
There is nothing good about what they do, or have done
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 10:54 AM   #11
aganitte
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,367
Ever heard of Howard Hughes? What he did for aviation dwarfs everything in the history of aviation except for the Wright brothers. And it took a LOT of money to do.

As for the assertion that capitalism has been around forever, well, I call foul on that. Modern day capitalism, with the checks and balances implimented in the western world, such as anti-trust and anti-monopoly prevention is a fairly new phenomena.

Whatever you want to call the system prior to the 20th century bears little resemblance to what we have now.

The system is imperfect, no doubt, but its a workable system. Corruptionis endemic to human nature, and nothing showed us that more than the USSR and China. By comparison, the USA is a blissful state of affairs.
aganitte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 11:04 AM   #12
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by aganitte
Ever heard of Howard Hughes? What he did for aviation dwarfs everything in the history of aviation except for the Wright brothers. And it took a LOT of money to do.

As for the assertion that capitalism has been around forever, well, I call foul on that. Modern day capitalism, with the checks and balances implimented in the western world, such as anti-trust and anti-monopoly prevention is a fairly new phenomena.

Whatever you want to call the system prior to the 20th century bears little resemblance to what we have now.

The system is imperfect, no doubt, but its a workable system. Corruptionis endemic to human nature, and nothing showed us that more than the USSR and China. By comparison, the USA is a blissful state of affairs.
Unenforced laws mean NOTHING. They are PLACEBO.
Why has the attorney general not investigated the Oil Companies and Refineries RIGHT NOW?

Because the admim doesnt want to see that, that is why.

Law mean nothing if not enforced EQUALLY
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 11:44 AM   #13
Valleycrest
Defrocked Irish priest
 
Valleycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 659
Why has the attorney general not investigated the Oil Companies and Refineries RIGHT NOW?
There are ALWAYS investigations whenever gas prices go up.
They NEVER find anything substantial.

Do you think it might have ANYTHING to do with
the FOREIGN oil Cartel aka OPEC?

I'm trying my hand at "post sculpting". You know, hitting 'Enter' at random times throughout my posts and haphazardly capitalizing entire words for no good reason. How did I do?

Last edited by Valleycrest; 06-17-2005 at 11:58 AM.
Valleycrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 11:58 AM   #14
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by Valleycrest
There are always investigations whenever gas prices go up.
They never find anything substantial.
Do you think it might have anything to do with
the foreign oil Cartel aka OPEC?
No I dont. I think it has to do with delibretely limiting the refining capacity
of the USA. So as to enable higher prices to be charged.
To delibretly limit the amount of the product available,

That is collusion
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:03 PM   #15
Valleycrest
Defrocked Irish priest
 
Valleycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 659
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that the USA is
TRYING to reduce production of oil so that the FOREIGN
powers of OPEC can make more MONEY?

I forget, who is being
ACCUSED of collusion?
Valleycrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:05 PM   #16
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by Valleycrest
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that the USA is
TRYING to reduce production of oil so that the FOREIGN
powers of OPEC can make more MONEY?

I forget, who is being
ACCUSED of collusion?
The refineries are NOT owned by foreign powers.
The Refineries get to charge for the product they produce.

It has nothing at all to do with Foreign powers. It is old fashion monopoly.
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:07 PM   #17
crimsonedge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 767
Originally Posted by Chiteng
The refineries are NOT owned by foreign powers.
The Refineries get to charge for the product they produce.

It has nothing at all to do with Foreign powers. It is old fashion monopoly.
Speak about something you know at least a little something about chithead. You know nothing at all about the oil market or what is behind the current price run up. If you did, you would not be making such stupid statements.
crimsonedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:14 PM   #18
Axgar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,028
Send a message via Yahoo to Axgar
Hmmmmmmmmm someone outta tell the to the land owners in ND because production here is wayyyyyyy up. (not to mention the drilling of NEW wells and horizontal drilling blah blah blah).

OOPS I guess I should say the owners of the mineral righs since the land owners dont get anything but a one time check of x amount of dollars for the use of their land.
Axgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:17 PM   #19
Martigan
Supporter
 
Martigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Juan Bautista, CA
Posts: 4,461
Send a message via AIM to Martigan
Chiteng, it has always been the case, with very few exceptions, that the more money you have, the more afraid you are to lose it. People with money are no exception. I mean, how dare folks who have money take it and pay taxes as they seem fit? While I know nobody of the nature of a money grunning fanatic, I do suppose that paying the taxes of the rich to the destriment of society would collapse the moral fabric of generations to come.

Touche!

Simplistic minds are no exception to the thought-provoking aspects of our financial stability. Take the case of a farmer who saves his money. Is he not a bastard child of capitalism? Is capitalism even his father? Daddy cappy, will you play with me? I think not! Leave me you rotten little child! Go make some corn and feed it to the masses, with the exception of African countries who hate our veggie genes.

The plight of the rich are not lightly taken with a grain of salt. Consider a friendly rich white guy who pays his taxes. If you make him buy hobos a free lunch, who will clean up after the shanty town while they are gone? It won't be a hobo because they are all gone and lazy. Trade ins are welcome.

I say tax everybody, even those that work. It's the best financial solution to our ailing economy, don't you think? As Hobart Humphreys used to say, "With a little bit of pickle relish, and some bushels of wheat, a man can seduce even the most juvenile of tax collectors."
Martigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:25 PM   #20
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
Why has the attorney general not investigated the Oil Companies and Refineries RIGHT NOW?
Investigate them for what? If the evil oil companies have been in collusion for years to raise the price of gasoline, how come it hasn't even kept up with the rate of inflation?

http://www.chartoftheday.com/20030827.gif
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:25 PM   #21
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Originally Posted by crimsonedge
Speak about something you know at least a little something about chithead. You know nothing at all about the oil market or what is behind the current price run up. If you did, you would not be making such stupid statements.

I know quite a bit about it actually. It is part of the business I am in.
Dont tell your grandpop how to suck eggs crimson.

You wont sell ME shit, and call it candy =)
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:31 PM   #22
Martigan
Supporter
 
Martigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Juan Bautista, CA
Posts: 4,461
Send a message via AIM to Martigan
Originally Posted by Chiteng
You wont sell ME shit, and call it candy =)
How about selling Chit, and calling it candy ass?

Mwahaha!

Just Kidding
Martigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:32 PM   #23
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
No I dont. I think it has to do with delibretely limiting the refining capacity of the USA. So as to enable higher prices to be charged. To delibretly limit the amount of the product available, That is collusion
Yeah that wouldn't have anything to do with environmental regulations and NIMBYism...the truth is that its just cheaper to increase production at existing refiners than it is to try and cut through the red tape and build a new refinery, which is exactly what energy companies have done.
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:54 PM   #24
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,564
24 replies, and still people play the analyze game with this joker. just mock and move on is my motto.
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:56 PM   #25
Martigan
Supporter
 
Martigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Juan Bautista, CA
Posts: 4,461
Send a message via AIM to Martigan
Originally Posted by chukzombi
24 replies, and still people play the analyze game with this joker. just mock and move on is my motto.
Actually Chuk, your reply is 23. Mine is 24, so I get to do the "mock and move on" move. You lose!
Martigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:51 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.