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Old 08-12-2004, 01:31 PM   #1
Vireil
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Default Mister Sensitivity

Precisely because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about expressing our power and influence.

George W. Bush 03/04/2001

Now the admin says we shouldn't be sensitive.

Flip...

Flop...
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:50 PM   #2
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Nine months before the event that changed how the world viewed terrorism... especially how we viewed it as a nation which had been relatively unscathed by it.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:53 PM   #3
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Nine months before the event that changed how the world viewed terrorism
The world has always viewed terrorism as reprehensible. We here in the states just became more sensitive to it because of 9/11.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:54 PM   #4
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That actually supports the Bush Cheny view that Kerry still has a pre 9/11 views of the world.
Thanks vireil for proving the GOP right.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by LairdRagna
Nine months before the event that changed how the world viewed terrorism... especially how we viewed it as a nation which had been relatively unscathed by it.
Tell that to Israelis blown up in their own towns over the past 80 years or so.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:16 PM   #6
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Oh please, you gotta be an total fucking retard if you don't think the events that transpired on 9/11 didn't have a major impact on how the world viewed terrorism. But then again, you ARE a total fucking retard. Carry on.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:18 PM   #7
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Just because your boy in the Oval Office is a flip flopper doesn't mean you need to get your panties in a knot.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:19 PM   #8
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Exactly Lurikeen, the Israelis show no quarter and could give a shit what others say. First and foremost they take the terrorists out. When they have tried to be "sensitive" its gotten nowhere. We assumed that this was somebody else's problem, that our oceans protected us. Well they didn't, its our problem now and Bush's response is very Israeli-esque and thank goodness because when it comes to dealing with this scum there aren't any more experienced than the Israelis.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:41 PM   #9
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Perhaps you have taken Kerry out of context and have misunderstood what he means by "sensitivity"?

For instance, Bruce Lee practiced "sensitivity training" on a daily basis? Did that mean he frolicked amongst the flowers saying PC words to those who passed by? NO. It meant that he trained martial techniques to such a degree that he could predict his opponents movements with a high degree of success. Such sensitivity training is actually a fundamental part of training for all those in Wing Chun Gung Fu and non-traditional forms of Wing Chun.

You can read into what Kerry was saying as we should "pussy fight" our enemy, if you choose. I took Kerry to mean that we should have a more heightened awareness of what our enemy is doing and not just run about the world half-cocked and ready to fire without good reason.
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Last edited by Lurikeen; 08-12-2004 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Spelling correction
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:53 PM   #10
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You are certainly free to read it that way, as is every voter to read it how it strikes them. I take it on its face. In the same sentence he used the word "thoughtful." I think Kerry's problem is he painted himself in a corner. To overcome Dean he had to co-opt the anti-war position. Now he has to move to the middle and be more hawkish, but there is still the Nader issue and his anti-war stance. Kerry can't afford to lose the left, so he has to slide between the two constituencies and sound tough while also speaking out on the war in a way that satisfies the left and doesn't alienate the middle. It's a pretty untenable proposition and one I don't envy him. Its a tough case to make without appearing to be a flip-flop.
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Old 08-12-2004, 02:55 PM   #11
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Yes, well Bush has to move towards the middle, too. He has his work cut out for him.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:03 PM   #12
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For instance, Bruce Lee practiced "sensitivity training" on a daily basis?
Where did you read that? I've always been a big Bruce Lee fan and I've never come across that statement before.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Maximus Faticus
Where did you read that? I've always been a big Bruce Lee fan and I've never come across that statement before.
For Christ's sake!! I practiced Jeet Kune Do for about 10 years. I think I know something about Lee's system.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
For Christ's sake!! I practiced Jeet Kune Do for about 10 years. I think I know something about Lee's system.
Oh yeah? How did you like it? Did you study any other forms? I've been thinking about taking some sort of martial art, and JKD is at the top of the list. I've found that it's hard to find a good JKD school though.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
For Christ's sake!! I practiced Jeet Kune Do for about 10 years. I think I know something about Lee's system.
Oh yeah, I don't believe... prove it... you got a link?

Just kidding man, that is way cool. When I was little I took a little Tae Kwon Do but only for a couple of months. Have been thinking it would be something good to take up seriously. I'm curious to, what does this discipline focus on?
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Maximus Faticus
Oh yeah? How did you like it? Did you study any other forms? I've been thinking about taking some sort of martial art, and JKD is at the top of the list. I've found that it's hard to find a good JKD school though.
JKD is an excellent system. You will want to take it and do some ground work to. Most good JKD schools will teach JuiJitsu or Judo also. Where do you live? I might be able to recommend a school.

Edit: I love JKD. It is the best. I also studied Kempo Kungfu (2nd degree brown), Shing I, and Baqua Chang (senior ranking). JKD is my favorite because it is straight in your face damage dealing. Taking softer forms of martial arts is recommended to supplement and polish skills.
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Old 08-12-2004, 08:30 PM   #17
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I live in Raleigh NC. The closest thing I've found is Wing Chun, not sure if you've heard of it. Supposedly Bruce was a student of it for a while though.
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Old 08-12-2004, 08:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Maximus Faticus
I live in Raleigh NC. The closest thing I've found is Wing Chun, not sure if you've heard of it. Supposedly Bruce was a student of it for a while though.
Give this contact a try to find a school in your area...

Johnny B. Beheler
Beheler Martial Arts
Spartanburg, South Carolina
Phone 864.576.8479


Wing Chun is a traditional martial art. Bruce's foundational art was Wing Chun, but Bruce broke out of that art and created Jeet Kune Do which is free from traditional forms. Wing Chun is an excellent art to study and I wouldn't pass up training in Wing Chun if you have a school in your area.
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Old 08-12-2004, 09:10 PM   #19
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Old 08-13-2004, 02:37 AM   #20
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My Mortal Kombat stats:

Brown Sash Shaolin Tiger Kung Fu/Shuai Chiaou/Tai Chi under Tim Norman in Fairborn Ohio(3 years...was ready to test for red but I moved like 120 miles away).

Red Belt in Shorin Ryu Karate(2 years) under Doug Yates in Xenia, OH(studied with Chuck Norris).

I can't remember a single form or kata now thanks to all the drugs I did in my early 20s.

edit: Wing Chun is considered a "soft" style and soft styles are fucking boring...you start out doing all the forms at a snail's pace and it takes like 5 years before you ever actually work up to real fight speed. All forms of kung fu are like this to a degree(and depends on the teacher too) but soft styles(northern mantis, etc) are awful as far as training goes.

Also, don't expect JKD to teach you anymore than a few police self defense type dirty tricks(eye stabs, knee breaks, etc)...unless you are already trained in a different form of martial arts. JKD was designed by a guy with over 20 years Wing Chun training don't forget. Plus a lot of the so called JKD teachers are actually nothing more than Army/Police self defense instructors(at least they were when I was doing the Martial Arts thing.
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Old 08-13-2004, 07:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Araya LeBon
edit: Wing Chun is considered a "soft" style and soft styles are fucking boring...you start out doing all the forms at a snail's pace and it takes like 5 years before you ever actually work up to real fight speed. All forms of kung fu are like this to a degree(and depends on the teacher too) but soft styles(northern mantis, etc) are awful as far as training goes.

Umm... no. Wing Chun is not an "internal" Chinese art such Tai Chi, or Shing I.

Go to a Wing Chun school and try a minute of Mook Jong (wooden dummy) and see how your wrists and knuckles hold up, Karate man.

Also, don't expect JKD to teach you anymore than a few police self defense type dirty tricks(eye stabs, knee breaks, etc)...unless you are already trained in a different form of martial arts.
False. JKD schools usually incorporate Muay Thai (for kicking and boxing), Judo and/or JuiJitsu (for ground work), Kali Knife, trapping, and Escrima (Philipino Stick techniques and fighting concepts). These are all real martial art disciplines in themselves and certainly not "dirty tricks".
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Old 08-13-2004, 07:53 AM   #22
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I remember watching a biography on BL on the History Channel a year or so ago. It talks about how Lee was challenged to a fight by the master of another dojo, and Lee got pissed because it took him too long (3 minutes I believe) to defeat the other master. So, he studied a lot of other martial arts, including western wrestling and fencing, and developed his own.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:25 AM   #23
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Luri,

Wing Chun - It's not an internal style, but it is taught as a soft style. There is some fuzziness as to what is meant by "hard/soft." Just did a google on "soft style wing chun" and I came up with 2 different ways it can be categorized on just the first page. Semantics, blah blah.

When I say soft, I am referring to the way it is taught. Slowly and softly at first and gradually building up speed over the years once the techniques and forms have been practiced a gazillion times...not to say it is to the degree of Tai Chi softness...that's a whole different ballpark of slow(we had a guy from China speak in class one day who didn't increase his initial slow speed in Tai Chi forms for 15 years...he was also a bonafide badass at the age of 65 and I couldn't land a single punch on him).
Mantis, Eagle Claw, Northern Shaolin, and Wing Chun all being examples of soft styles.

Fact is, if a student is being taught Wing Chun at fighting speed within the first couple years, he isn't being taught anything close to traditional Wing Chun. I've visited 3 WC schools in my area(that's what I planned on taking before I got into Shaolin Tiger) and only one of them taught it correctly.

The other "hard" methods for teaching the usual Kung Fu styles(5 animal system, etc) start slow and softly too, but also traditionally incorporated a lot of full speed practice pretty early on, but rarely full speed sparring in the first year.

Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Go to a Wing Chun school and try a minute of Mook Jong (wooden dummy) and see how your wrists and knuckles hold up, Karate man
Karate Man? I dropped that shit like a bad habit as soon as I found Norman's. It only took me 3 months before I stopped going into a Karate stance on reflex, and was comfortable with REAL martial arts stances: Kung Fu. :P

Originally Posted by Lurikeen
False. JKD schools usually incorporate Muay Thai (for kicking and boxing), Judo and/or JuiJitsu (for ground work), Kali Knife, trapping, and Escrima (Philipino Stick techniques and fighting concepts). These are all real martial art disciplines in themselves and certainly not "dirty tricks".
You just illustrated the problem. Teachers teach whatever styles they've thrown together over the years and call it JKD...trust me on this, I've seen it in action at the supposed JKD schools around here. There's a class in Dayton taught by a guy who owns a Tae Kwan Do studio...guess what his and the people that take his class's "JKD" looks like?
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Old 08-13-2004, 09:00 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Araya LeBon
You just illustrated the problem. Teachers teach whatever styles they've thrown together over the years and call it JKD...trust me on this, I've seen it in action at the supposed JKD schools around here. There's a class in Dayton taught by a guy who owns a Tae Kwan Do studio...guess what his and the people that take his class's "JKD" looks like?
Trust you on that? I have studied JKD for 10 years. I don't need to take your word at face value.

You walked into 3 WC schools and thought you knew which taught "correctly"?

Martial arts is not something you read up on the internet and start judging with "this one is soft so sucks" and "this one is hard so good!" If you want to learn a particular art you have to walk into it with an open mind. Not with silly ideas you think you know because someone gave you their opinion.

While we are here, there is no "best" martial art. If there were then everyone would be flocking to learn it. ANY martial art is good if it builds you up as a person and you can walk down the street with self-confidence.

You are right about the fuzziness over "soft/hard". Most of the so-called "soft" arts are considered "internal" arts. That is, the direction of fighting is usually in circles and using the opponents strength and balance against them. "External" arts (hard) are like Karate or any other art that heavily weights its techniques towards a direct line of attack and use of one's own strength to beat down an opponent. Wing Chun is more weighted towards offensive (another key word) strikes, traps and breaking. Another way to look at this is how my old Baqua Chang instructor put it. He said (and I am paraphrasing) the difference between "soft" and "hard" is with "soft" techniques your opponent breaks themselves, and with "hard" techniques you break your opponent.

Concerning speed, what you are saying is rubish. Techniques are first shown and taught to students slowly so they can understand the movements. Students are encouraged to speed up their movements once they have good control.

"Traditional" WC doesn't refer to the speed of training. It refers to the core techniques being trained. Non-Traditional WC styles (including JKD) have dropped much of traditional WC's foot work, for example, and adopted Muay Thai foot work, or even foot work from Escrima. The same can be said about striking. Non-Tradition WC relies heavily upon modern boxing techniques and has dropped the traditional striking found in WC (punching, using a parrel fist striking against all four knuckles, finger strikes, and palm strikes). That's not to say you won't still find non-traditional schools that have kept bits and pieces of the traditional striking.

Any who... this is all interesting. I hope Max finds a school that he is happy with.

Oh, and Max. Find a school that will allow for monthly payments with no contract. You don't want to get locked into a contract and then find you don't like the school.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:45 PM   #25
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I think I'm going to give that wing chun school a shot. Thanks for all the great info guys.
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