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Old 05-20-2003, 01:01 PM   #1
Rashim
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Default So what is up with the Warriors?

**From my understanding this is an old subject to some but this is my first year here so take that into account**

Everyone knows at this ponit that the Warrior cannot hold agro vs SK's or Paladins...as a matter of fact, Warriors have problems holding agro in general. Casters prefer to have SK's or Paladins tank over a Warrior because they get solid agro in most cases in an xp group.

Is this how the developers intended the Warrior to be played?

Anyone "in the know" that can direct me to some dev notes or something that will indicate when the Warrior class will be getting some love?
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:15 PM   #2
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Warriors are messed up and everyone knows it, however, I'm so sick of hearing this pally/sk can taunt better crap because I haven't met any pally/sks that can hold 50% or more aggro on me in a fight even full out stuns or any other silly tricks they use and I dont claim to be anywhere near the best equipped warrior.

P.S. Just because you suck doesn't mean everyone else does. Get some aa's, get better weapons, get better haste, get clickies with aggro proc, get bow with aggro proc, but do something other than coming here to whine.
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:20 PM   #3
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Gear..AA's...levels....all these mixed together make for agro management.

Before I got my Blade of Carnage I couldnt out taunt anyone, now, agro is not a huge problem. Granted, there are still some occasions where i lose it, but i have shit for AAs, so once i work on that, i should be in the zone.


Yeah, warriors got shafted, but work around it, no reason to bitch. I learned that lesson.
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:24 PM   #4
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I taunt fine
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:39 PM   #5
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Default equipment looks fine

I don't know why you would have problems that would allow you to be out tanked by a pally or sk. Only time I have aggro problems is when a caster gets cocky and sends a blast before I have had time to beat on him or a shammy slows before It is in camp but it don't take long for me to get control. unless on a hillside. I hate figthing on hillsides it is just damn hard to find the mob if it does pingpong. Put your taunt button in a hotkey slot and use that number to spam it. use your epic and beat away. Also make sure your the closet one to the mob that seems to help also.
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:54 PM   #6
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Bro, I came here to get the scoop from other players with more experience than me about the subject.

Sorry if I set you off by asking for information and in turn indicating to you that I suck as a warrior.

You feel better that you got that off your chest and told me what's up?

C'mon dude don't act so arrogant when I am obviously not at your level in this game. Just ignore the post next time as a total waste of your time and when you feel the urge to go off on somebody remember this response and reconsider doing so in the future.

From your response it seems to me that you got some anger issues that you need work out. You might respond well to negative reinforcement but that dosen't mean that everyone was raised lke you. Time to grow up and get on some medication or talk to a therapist.





Originally posted by Razboinik
Warriors are messed up and everyone knows it, however, I'm so sick of hearing this pally/sk can taunt better crap because I haven't met any pally/sks that can hold 50% or more aggro on me in a fight even full out stuns or any other silly tricks they use and I dont claim to be anywhere near the best equipped warrior.

P.S. Just because you suck doesn't mean everyone else does. Get some aa's, get better weapons, get better haste, get clickies with aggro proc, get bow with aggro proc, but do something other than coming here to whine.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:21 PM   #7
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Default Oops

I hit the wrong magelo profile. But you still don't have bad equipment. I don't see any 1hs weapons on you though. I would suggest a Frostbringer for Primary and something hard hitting for secondary. Windblade is fast but when trying to tank at your lvl you need more. Duel weild is best for aggro control with something like frosty with proc that gets thier attention. there are some other nice hate procing 1hs out there but will cost you alot. 2hs is great when doing damage and not MT but not when you are the one for aggro
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:25 PM   #8
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I have no trouble with aggro.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: equipment looks fine

Well the thing that I have noticed in PoN/PoD is that slowers will 95% percent of the time get agro off me when they land or have their slow resisted. Regardless of when the slower decides to land the slow ( mob down a bubble or so ) it only partially seems to help but there is always that chance that the chanter will slow then sit to med and the mob will come straight for him.

When a Paladin is tanking, the mob dosen't touch the casters at all, ever... regardless of when those slows, tashes, or heals come. Same thing can be said to some extent with the SK's.

I even purchased 2 1handers with procs to see if that would mimic the effect of a paladin tanking and it has not.

So I'm stumped and I need to figure out if this is something that I can do to improve or if this is something beyond my control.


Originally posted by Afferon
I don't know why you would have problems that would allow you to be out tanked by a pally or sk. Only time I have aggro problems is when a caster gets cocky and sends a blast before I have had time to beat on him or a shammy slows before It is in camp but it don't take long for me to get control. unless on a hillside. I hate figthing on hillsides it is just damn hard to find the mob if it does pingpong. Put your taunt button in a hotkey slot and use that number to spam it. use your epic and beat away. Also make sure your the closet one to the mob that seems to help also.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:31 PM   #10
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Well, speaking from experience I can sympathize with your plight. I had problems holding aggro against hybrids before my current weapon configuration. Suffice it to say that it's not a problem now. A chain stunning pally could probably rip a mob off of me if he really tried, depending on how many procs I get. I do agree that you should switch to 1hs for the time being. Frosty/silken whip of ensnaring is a pretty reasonable aggro combo depending on what mobs you can take down etc..for someone in your position, red epic still owns as well. Ultimately as well, speed = aggro, so a swiftblade of Zek main with Frosty offhand also works pretty well.

It does appear, however, that we are headed for some type of melee upgrade as per some of the PoTime loot that's been dropping. Skill mods for skills that don't exist yet..etc....

Just noticed your profile. If you can afford it, upgrade your haste as well.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:32 PM   #11
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Warriors are messed up and everyone knows it, however, I'm so sick of hearing this pally/sk can taunt better crap because I haven't met any pally/sks that can hold 50% or more aggro on me in a fight even full out stuns or any other silly tricks they use and I dont claim to be anywhere near the best equipped warrior.
Spell taunt > Raz

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Old 05-20-2003, 02:37 PM   #12
Rashim
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Default Re: Oops

My one handers have been added to my magelo. Look forward to a resposne.

Originally posted by Afferon
I hit the wrong magelo profile. But you still don't have bad equipment. I don't see any 1hs weapons on you though. I would suggest a Frostbringer for Primary and something hard hitting for secondary. Windblade is fast but when trying to tank at your lvl you need more. Duel weild is best for aggro control with something like frosty with proc that gets thier attention. there are some other nice hate procing 1hs out there but will cost you alot. 2hs is great when doing damage and not MT but not when you are the one for aggro
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:42 PM   #13
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Rashim...dont sweat Razboinik, He's just a dickhead that doesnt understand you are asking a question about the warrior class play at higher levels.. so you'll have to pardon his arrogance and asshole tendancies.
But yes, sony should do a little work to give more agro to warriors as their job is to get beat on and hold the mobs attention.
For now though, you will have to work around that weakness with better faster weapons procs etc. and hope that the people you grp or raid with watch their own agro...careful with chain nukes stacking to many dots and other agro drawing attacks.

and when all else fails......delete your warrior and make an SK.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:45 PM   #14
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only thing that causes me real aggro problems is mages! but its always "but I only nuked once???"

bring back mod rods properly!
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:46 PM   #15
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Axe is pretty decent. Swap out club for Frostbringer and it will carry you for quite a while, imo. Debuffs > DD damage for aggro.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:00 PM   #16
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First off I am so tired of this argument between paladins, shadow knights, and warriors. As a high level paladin we all know what shadow knights and paladins went through since Kunark. To come here and complain that we hybrid tanks finally do something well is utter crap.

Lets take a step back into the history of the paladin/sk class.
1-50 we were not bad and generally didn't have a hard time getting a group.

Kunark Era-51-60 when MoK came out in its original form nobody wanted to group with Paladin/SK's. This spell was very bad for the hybrid tank and a lot of people retired there paladins/sk's due to lfg forever.

Luclin the addition of aa's finally gives a paladin/sk a chance to improve themselves. Level 59 introduced some nice spells that finally gave us a chance to solo for exp if we couldn't find a group.

Everyone is always going to complain that certain classes have a taunt advantage over others. To me it doesn't matter. In a raid situation, I know my role and know it well. I help with LoH, heals, anything that I can do to keep the WARRIORS alive. Their job is not to keep the aggro but everyone elses job is to NOT take it from them.

In an experience group, I also know my job and do it well. If a warrior is in the group, a lot of times they have no issue with me taking MA role. Same goes for the other way around, if a warrior wants to ma fine. I know I can get aggro faster than a warrior in an exp group which enables the shaman/ench to debuff and slow the mobs faster. This saves the cleric mana in terms of heals, shaman/ench from getting beat on, etc.

I am so tired of this argument as to what makes each class better. In my opinion this game is about fun and killing stuff.

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Old 05-20-2003, 03:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: So what is up with the Warriors?

Originally posted by Rashim
Everyone knows at this ponit that the Warrior cannot hold agro vs SK's or Paladins...as a matter of fact, Warriors have problems holding agro in general. Casters prefer to have SK's or Paladins tank over a Warrior because they get solid agro in most cases in an xp group.

I like my warrior tank..sorry but always been that way.
When a caster and a warrior is in a group, you are a team. If by now a caster hasnt figured out by now how to nuke without stealing aggro..well maybe they should learn. Granted there are some times when aggro is lost; but overall..its still a team thing.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:13 PM   #18
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Sometimes I do have problems holding aggro, but usually against a well equipped rogue or a nasty Pally Procing weapon. But as someone else said, a good group knows how to keep aggro on the tank, like a rogue stopping his/her attack for a few seconds, or a pally watching the casting. I rotate through the Cracked Claw of Zlandicar which procs "incapacitate", a primal and a priceless. Primal, or course, procs Avatar on me, which is nice. I thought about getting my Frostbringer back to test it out to see if it helps hold aggro better that the Claw. I am using the Shroud of the Dar Brood from WW for my speed, not sure what I should shoot for next for better speed? Any help??
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Old 05-20-2003, 04:01 PM   #19
Rashim
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You misunderstand what I was trying to say.



Originally posted by Kavis Silversteel
First off I am so tired of this argument between paladins, shadow knights, and warriors. As a high level paladin we all know what shadow knights and paladins went through since Kunark. To come here and complain that we hybrid tanks finally do something well is utter crap.

Lets take a step back into the history of the paladin/sk class.
1-50 we were not bad and generally didn't have a hard time getting a group.

Kunark Era-51-60 when MoK came out in its original form nobody wanted to group with Paladin/SK's. This spell was very bad for the hybrid tank and a lot of people retired there paladins/sk's due to lfg forever.

Luclin the addition of aa's finally gives a paladin/sk a chance to improve themselves. Level 59 introduced some nice spells that finally gave us a chance to solo for exp if we couldn't find a group.

Everyone is always going to complain that certain classes have a taunt advantage over others. To me it doesn't matter. In a raid situation, I know my role and know it well. I help with LoH, heals, anything that I can do to keep the WARRIORS alive. Their job is not to keep the aggro but everyone elses job is to NOT take it from them.

In an experience group, I also know my job and do it well. If a warrior is in the group, a lot of times they have no issue with me taking MA role. Same goes for the other way around, if a warrior wants to ma fine. I know I can get aggro faster than a warrior in an exp group which enables the shaman/ench to debuff and slow the mobs faster. This saves the cleric mana in terms of heals, shaman/ench from getting beat on, etc.

I am so tired of this argument as to what makes each class better. In my opinion this game is about fun and killing stuff.

Kavis Silversteel
65th Season Paladin
Member of Team Evil
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Old 05-20-2003, 04:45 PM   #20
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Just don't hit taunt when casters cast too early. They will learn. Casters need to learn to give a warrior a few more seconds to get aggro over a pally or SK.

I prefer warriors over SKs/Pallys because SKs/Pallys give up a significant amount of DPS to be able to cast. I would rather have the DPS and kill stuff faster. From all the log parsing I have done, generally, a hybrid tank does about 1/2 the damage of a warrior. Granted my parser doesn't take into account the damage done by spells. I'm assuming the spell damage isn't that much. Keep in mind these parses are from pickup groups in PoV. Of course there will be highend pallys/sks that will blow away a typical PoV warrior even with all their casting.

Really though it doesn't matter. Each person needs to learn to adapt to the group. People who don't adapt are the real problems, not your aggro.
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:08 PM   #21
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Default Chill Kavis

No one has dissed your class or put them down. He is asking how to better control aggro over you that is not putting you down. No where in this thread is anyone bad mouthing pally/sk. The warriors job and ONLY job is to hold aggro in a group, and he wants to know how to better that don't go off half cocked and screaming that your tired of getting the shaft. If ya don't have something construtive to say about why you take his aggro don't say anything.

Sheesh some people just don't get it
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:34 PM   #22
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Rogues....massive DPS own my agro.

In my last exp group, i had 2 very well equipped rogues in it, and couldnt hold agro for shit.
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:39 PM   #23
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Warriors are what they always have been -- in fact they upgraded our taunt skill to work more reliably prior to PoP release.

The issue isn't really holding aggro, whether your middlin or uber if your playing with your peers the weapons you have available to you should do the job.

The issue is acquiring aggro. Paladins and SK's can build up hate fast, and at range, with their spells. But warriors are stuck meleeing to build up hate. Because PoP mobs hit so hard you want them slowed as fast as possible, but if you slow too soon the warrior hasn't built enough hate to keep mob from peeling off onto your slower, and then the healer that then heals your slower etc.

Taunt just moves you to the top of a mobs hate list -- taunting prior to slow does nothing. Procs that add hate help but they are random and can't be counted on like a cast spell.

Taunt has a 30-40% chance of working it seems on typical tier2/3 mobs. Until a warrior gets a successful taunt your slowers and healers may get whacked. Cleric's supernal remedy, supernal elixer and CH are all 400 mana, it gets expensive healing folks up that get whacked during the first 10-20 sec of a fight.

Once you have a successful taunt after mob is slowed the warrior should be set on aggro for the fight.

There are ways to help a warrior build aggro fast, and some of the best are when a warrior taunts off a paladin/SK. But typical xp groups just want easy kills and its true they have to work less on aggro management and fewer side heals with a Pal/SK. The scenario where some folks are saying they can/can't hold aggro against a paladin/SK is dysfunctional -- the group should decide who should hold aggro and work toward that.

Best thread I have seen discussing this is a huge thread at Paladins of Norrath in their class balance section.
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Old 05-21-2003, 12:07 AM   #24
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<3 warriors!
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Old 05-21-2003, 06:05 AM   #25
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Default .

A paladin who knows what he is doing will loose no DPS to cast spells whatsoever to hold aggro Mackentil as casting a spell does not reset the swing timer for hybrids. Force of akilea is a 1 second cast time spell so even max hasted with a fast 30 delay 2 hander you still have 1.5 seconds between swings which you can get a stun inbetween. Heck if the paladin is pulling they can pull with stuns and never even have to cast a single one for aggro when the mob is in camp. 2 stuns and regular meele will keep the mob off anything but a chain nuking from the start caster who would be one stupid caster.

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