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Old 03-02-2006, 11:03 PM   #201
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Neither is a condom.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:42 PM   #202
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Heretic, where exactly have we proven capital punishment doesnt work? you see my method isnt putting the asshats in a prison for 30 years and making the family suffer knowing this piece of shit is getting a chance to live his life, sure you may say its a shitty life but what the hell even goldfish seem to enjoy what little freedoms they have.

I guarantee you one thing if people thought they were going to be strung up if they did whatever it is they may be thinking of doing they would at least think twice about it........ then again some people are just crazy and dont give a shit...... beings they don't give a shit may as well get rid of em.

Anyways the whole arguement is moot because untill there is some sort of agreement among the people NOT ONE potential solution will ever work.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:47 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Neither is a condom.
Well, condoms aren't intended to prevent people from having sex.

Or have I missed something?
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:53 PM   #204
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hmmmmmmmmmmmm so we wasted our money all these years huh Aers?
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:58 PM   #205
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Welp, I guess there is something to be said for homosexual relationships after all......
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:43 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Axgar
hmmmmmmmmmmmm so we wasted our money all these years huh Aers?
First, stop raping the English language. Second, what the fuck do you even mean?
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:43 AM   #207
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Rape....... no thats what you used to do to your sister before her sex change.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:12 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Ares
Well, condoms aren't intended to prevent people from having sex.
Abstinence isn't intentded to prevent people from having sex, either. You don't just say, "I'm practicing abstinence!" and poof! away goes the desire to have sex. It's the act of refraining from sex. It requires willpower in order to work. Condoms or the pill allow you to have sex and (hopefully) not get pregnant, but the only willpower they require is that you use them. This all falls into the "big fat duh" category, so I'm not really sure why we're arguing it.

My statement was simply that people don't accidentally get pregnant while practicing abstinence, and they don't. As long as they continue to practice it, they're fine. Once they stop, they're no longer practicing abstinence and therefore stand a chance of getting pregnant, just like if they were no longer using condoms or stopped taking the pill.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:12 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Axgar
Rape....... no thats what you used to do to your sister before her sex change.
Drinking again, are we?
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:10 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by AresProphet
When used correctly.

We're going in circles. Let me try to clarify.

(A) A person wishing to avoid unplanned pregnancies must select a method of birth control. Options include pills, condoms, or abstinence.

(B) A person decides on a method.

(C) No matter which one it is, we can define the failure rate as: (proportion of times attempted to use method and failed to do so) + (proportion of times used method and method failed). As in:

% of times he forgets to wear a condom and has sex + % of times the condom fails and produces a pregnancy.

Or % of times she forgets to take the pills and ends up engaging in sex which could produce a pregnancy + % of times pills failed to prevent pregnancy.

OR % of times attempted to abstain but failed and ended up having sex + % of times abstinence failed to prevent pregnancy.


Now, let's compare the methods. For condoms, the break % is about 1% we'll assume, but how often does a broken condom result in pregnancy? Multiply that percentage (25%? 50%?) by 1% to get your true failure rate for a broken condom, since not every act of unprotected sex produces a pregnancy

Now for the extra component of the failure rate. How likely is a guy to mess up and forget the condom, yet still have sex? I'd guess it's a low proportion for anyone in a relatively stable relationship. We don't really need to know just yet, I'll just call it P(C).


For the pill: we'll say it fails only 0.1% because it must result in a pregnancy to be a failure, less than a condom but still statistically significant. How likely is a woman to forget to use it? It's ridiculously easy to take a pill daily. The failure rate here has to be low. I'll call it P(P), where P(C) > P(P)


For abstinence: if properly used, there is a 0% chance of pregnancy. But how often does an abstinent person lapse? This requires more than just forgetting to carry a condom or forgetting to refill a prescription. Again, if you use statistics from abstinence-only sex-ed as an example of how someone told to abstain does not do so, you could come up with an approximate answer. I'll call it P(A) and say that P(A) > P(C) > P(P). For the record: my sex-ed in middle school was abstinence-only. I can list at least a dozen girls in my graduating class of 500 who ended up with a kid before high school was up.


That's my entire hypothesis, that a person attempting abstinence as the sole method of birth control is more likely to engage in unsafe sex than someone using a more passive form of birth control.[CODE]
Couple of points.
(1) In your conjecturing, you make the assumption that people who opt to practice birth control will use one method exclusively. Nothing says a person opting for abstinence as a method of birth control will not use a condom in the event of a "lapse in judgement". Nothing says somebody on the pill won't use a condom. I know several people that routinely practice two forms of birth control simeaultaneously.

(2) I don't think anybody is really arguing that abstinence-only sex education is more effective at preventing pregnancy than sex education that presents all the options. I do think, however, that arguing that any other method of birth control is more effective than abstinence is just silly.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:36 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Zzap
My point is that you are seeming to hold people to a higher standard than you will even hold yourself.
That isn't entirely true. Brig seems to be holding people to the same standard she holds herself, and while I said I can't argue with the consistancy there, I do question whether it is reasonable to ask of others?

Is it reasonable to expect others to do what you do? Should I expect others to do what I do? If so, I am almost EXACTLY in line with what Brig says on this issue- Don't do it unless you can afford to keep it, and take care of it. There are the questions that cause me to rethink that position, though. I have put a lot of focus on my career and financial success. Should I expect others, other women to do this also? What if they or anyone doesn't meet our standard? What if a woman is weak, what if she fails? What do we do?

I have posted before angry, because I don't like weak women. In this way, agreeing with Brig is what would be easier for me, but I know that women, men, - people are weak. The idea that abstinance is reasonable to expect from people hasn't been a working idea since the 50's. Yes abstinance until ready for a baby would be the "best" thing, but I simply don't think it's a feasible solution.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:40 AM   #212
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No I wasnt drinking, your a pretty self righteous thing arent you brig, ares spewed out a smartass comment I gave on back, now please drop the crack pipe and join the real world before you miss more sex and get crabby again.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:40 AM   #213
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Newsflash: people like fucking. Consensual adults are legally entitled to fuck.

Just wanted to get that out there before a few of you start criminalizing bedroom behaviors.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:43 AM   #214
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what does sex have to do with this arguement (besides the obvious) most of us WANT to have sex, some of us such as Brig feel that taking responsibilty for you actions is the thing to do if you get pregnant, others say that an unborn child has no rights and is in effect not human until after the cord is CUT..............
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:49 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Axgar
what does sex have to do with this arguement (besides the obvious) most of us WANT to have sex, some of us such as Brig feel that taking responsibilty for you actions is the thing to do if you get pregnant, others say that an unborn child has no rights and is in effect not human until after the cord is CUT..............
The fallacy lies in your assumption that abortions and those who have them are inherently irresponsible.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:52 AM   #216
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There is another issue regarding abortion. Zzap has said that there is a danger of unfairly targetting women. Others have claimed this isn't the case. I would point to this legislation as an example of the extension of this issue, and ask again if women being targetted isn't an issue-

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2...28_news_18.txt

News


Advertisement

Bill bars a woman from selling her eggs


By HOWARD FISCHER
Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:02 AM CST


PHOENIX -- State representatives voted Monday to make it illegal for a woman to sell her eggs but refused to impose similar restrictions on men selling their sperm.

On a voice vote, the House of Representatives said that a woman who sells her eggs could be sent to prison for up to a year and fined up to $150,000. HB 2142 would apply that same penalty to any doctor or organization who made the purchase.
Lawmakers also gave preliminary approval to HB 2681 to require that even when women just donate their eggs they be informed of medical risks. But here, too, legislators refused to warn men of the potential legal and ethical risks of donating sperm, including the possibility a child born from the donation could seek them out and demand support.

Rep. Bob Stump, R-Peoria, said both measures are necessary to protect the health of women. But several women legislators reacted angrily, saying this is really a question of whether lawmakers are going to treat men and women the same.

"I don't understand why a man could go out and sell part of (ITALICS) his (ROMAN) reproductive body, ... that a man can go and make money, but I as a woman cannot do it,'' complained Rep. Linda Lopez, D-Tucson, about HB 2142 which criminalizes the sale of human eggs.

Women can make a fair amount of money from selling eggs: One classified ad in a Phoenix area publication offered up to $24,000.

But Rep. Bob Stump, R-Peoria, said the disparate treatment is justified. And, he said, it has "nothing to do with gender politics.''

He said there is a medical risk from the procedure of donating eggs, both from the hormones injected into women to produce multiple mature eggs as well as the harvesting procedure.

"I would wager there's not one recording instance of someone dying from donating or selling sperm,'' Stump explained during the House floor debate. "In fact, it's more dangerous for a man to cross the street than to donate sperm.''

Stump conceded under questioning, though, the medical risk remains the same, whether the eggs are donated or sold. And nothing in his legislation makes donation illegal.

But Stump said there is one difference: Human eggs can be used not only for in vitro fertilization to help a childless couple conceive -- like sperm -- but also can be used "for the express purpose of destroying cloned human embryos'' for medical research.

And Stump in his two years at the Capitol has waged a campaign to create legal impediments to cloning. Aside from these two measures, last year he pushed through a ban on the use of state funds or facilities.

Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Phoenix, said there is no reason to have one set of laws for men and another for women. "You keep your hands off my eggs and I'll keep my hands off your sperm,'' she said.

Lopez, who raised the issue of "informed consent'' for sperm donors, did not argue that there are medical risks from the procedure. But she said there are other potential risks to men, including potential financial risk if a court were to determine that the biological father -- if he could be traced -- has some financial obligation to the child.

Final roll-call votes on both issues will send them to the Senate
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:53 AM   #217
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I would call it an opinion Horm, Im not silly enough to think Im right about everything that I believe and Im not out bombing abortion clinics I just say I think that abortions are wrong and there are ways to take responsiblity without passing it off as an abortion.......

(I also stated a few times the incest and rape are understandable reasons for an abortion).
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:11 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Axgar
I would call it an opinion Horm, Im not silly enough to think Im right about everything that I believe and Im not out bombing abortion clinics I just say I think that abortions are wrong and there are ways to take responsiblity without passing it off as an abortion.......

(I also stated a few times the incest and rape are understandable reasons for an abortion).
There are different forms responsibility can take. Taking responsibility and having an abortion are not mutually exclusive: my point being that often abortion *is* a responsible action, and not just in the case of rape or incest. Far too often in this and other threads people on your side of the argument have attempted to structure the debate around abortion being irresponsible by definition.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:01 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
There are different forms responsibility can take. Taking responsibility and having an abortion are not mutually exclusive: my point being that often abortion *is* a responsible action,

Godallmighty, I actually hafe to agree with Horm on this. A child shouldn't be brought into this world unless it's desperately wanted, loved, and the family has the means to care properly for it. (Note: Not saying you have to be rich. I know plenty of people barly making it who are GREAT parents. In fact, most of the poor families I know are closer and more stable than the rich or middle class ones)

and not just in the case of rape or incest. Far too often in this and other threads people on your side of the argument have attempted to structure the debate around abortion being irresponsible by definition.
Abortion CAN be a resolution. Why force a woman to bear a 9 month parasite that is unwanted? And again, I support the right to life when the child becomes a person. And the best definition (Not the only one, but the one I think comes closest to my worldview) I've come up with is sentience.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:22 AM   #220
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EC: Thank you, I was looking for that article this morning.

Drysdale: How about just no more 3rd trimester "partial-birth" abortions, except in the cases of incest, severe deformity or retardation, and mother's health issues. (Yes, something else you all can find distasteful about me, I support a mother's right to abort in cases of severe deformity and/or retardation).

I'd rather that the government doesn't have a right to dictate anything about a mother's body at all, not so much because I'm for abortion at any stage, but because whenever you give them an inch, they take a mile and tax you for it, too.

If you can't decide whether you want the kid or not in the first 6 months, get the adoption papers lined up just in case.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:39 AM   #221
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I think it's also important to note again that abstinance can be combined with other preventative measures for optimum results. However, there is not so much an issue with contraceptive education teaching against absinance, this is not the case. Many women's planning/preventative education type classes integrate abstinance as an underlying attitude that should be practiced, while implementing alternative methods as safeguards. HOWEVER, many abstinance based educational programs (such as those in the Catholic Church) actively seek to discourage and/or PROHIBIT use of contraceptives. That is the assumption I am making when I am referring to "abstinance" as a solution. Whereas more holistic approaches provide some safeguard in the case that one method should fail, the "abstinance" is the only way to go method relies on willpower alone, and in the case that it fails, offers no choices as to resolution of a pregnancy. In essence, it places the indvidual in a zero sum game of no mistakes allowed, and I don't think such an unforgiving system is as effective as the more holistic approach.

Why expect perfection from imperfect people? IMO, the program/methods must match the users, or it is designed to fail. That is not to say it won't work for some people, but I would contend those are the responsible/strongly willed that are not necessarily the "problem areas" that a solution must be aimed at. Indeed, in the absence of any program, I believe these forwardly concious people (such as Brig) would be making wise choices anyway.
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:50 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by zzapp the witch
EC: Thank you, I was looking for that article this morning.

Drysdale: How about just no more 3rd trimester "partial-birth" abortions, except in the cases of incest, severe deformity or retardation, and mother's health issues. (Yes, something else you all can find distasteful about me, I support a mother's right to abort in cases of severe deformity and/or retardation).
I really wouldn't have much of a problem with this, although I might want to tweak the time period by a few weeks either way...

I'd rather that the government doesn't have a right to dictate anything about a mother's body at all, not so much because I'm for abortion at any stage, but because whenever you give them an inch, they take a mile and tax you for it, too.
I agree, but at some point someone has to speak for the rights of the child.

If you can't decide whether you want the kid or not in the first 6 months, get the adoption papers lined up just in case.
I hate that because so many girls back out of adoptions at the last minute Once that document is signed, she shouldn't eb able to do that.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:05 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Abstinence isn't intentded to prevent people from having sex, either. You don't just say, "I'm practicing abstinence!" and poof! away goes the desire to have sex. It's the act of refraining from sex. It requires willpower in order to work. Condoms or the pill allow you to have sex and (hopefully) not get pregnant, but the only willpower they require is that you use them. This all falls into the "big fat duh" category, so I'm not really sure why we're arguing it.
Because it demonstrates that abstinence is not 100% at preventing pregnancy, because it is not 100% effective at preventing sex. A lot of people would claim otherwise, without figuring in the fact that human beings are human beings and as such are prone to errors of judgment.

My statement was simply that people don't accidentally get pregnant while practicing abstinence, and they don't. As long as they continue to practice it, they're fine. Once they stop, they're no longer practicing abstinence and therefore stand a chance of getting pregnant, just like if they were no longer using condoms or stopped taking the pill.

Which is he problem with citing abstinence as a 100% effective method. When the method fails you can just say "it doesn't count! He wasn't really abstinent!"
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:45 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Axgar
No I wasnt drinking, your a pretty self righteous thing arent you brig, ares spewed out a smartass comment I gave on back, now please drop the crack pipe and join the real world before you miss more sex and get crabby again.
LOL, have another drink.


Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Newsflash: people like fucking. Consensual adults are legally entitled to fuck.
My stance on abortion is this:

Abortion is inherently wrong, regardless of the reason. It's a violent, barbaric action taken against a person that has no chance of defending or speaking for themselves, and it's done by the one person on the planet charged with protecting them and looking out for their welfare.

To be fair, I realize that there are situations beyond the mother's control that deserve special consideration. I'm talking about medical conditions that make it extremely difficult if not impossible for the mother and/or child to survive the pregnancy and/or birthing process; rape; and incest.

Personally, if faced with the situation myself, I'd choose to keep the baby. I always hope for the best. I've seen impossible situations turn out OK. I'd rather take that gamble and die in childbirth than abort a child. I don't expect every other woman out there to live by that standard, so I'm willing to defer to the mother's wishes in extreme circumstances such as these.

I do not consider simply not wanting to get pregnant to be a good enough reason to take a life. I do not approve of abortion as a form of birth control. I prefer that people prevent the problem, rather than taking drastic measures to correct the problem after-the-fact.

Obviously, that makes me a fan of preventive birth control. When someone says that they did everything they could - condoms, the pill, surgery, etc., and still got pregnant? Obviously, they didn't do everything they could. They were still having sex, and sex has been known to lead to pregnancy.

So yes, I realize that sex is fun and that consenting adults are legally allowed to do it. I'm just not buying the, "I did everything I could and still got pregnant, so now I'm forced to have an abortion because I don't want to be pregnant." argument from people who were not doing all they could to avoid pregnancy. They had an option they didn't exercise.

You can love that stance or hate it - that's your prerogative. I think that my comments on abstinence have been misunderstood, so maybe knowing what my full stance is will clarify that. I'm not simply trying to condemn people for having sex.


Originally Posted by Ares
Which is he problem with citing abstinence as a 100% effective method. When the method fails you can just say "it doesn't count! He wasn't really abstinent!"
You can apply the same argument to all forms of birth control. Condoms are what, 99.7%? effective, when you use them. If you don't use a condom and you get pregnant, you can't say the condom failed, because you didn't use one.

We aren't getting anywhere with this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 03-04-2006, 12:39 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
For your next great trick, maybe you could tell us what relevance that has to the conversation at hand?
Having sex, just like driving, is a part of life. Yes, you can go without doing either, but you will be living in a box and not living life to its fullest.


Originally Posted by Zzapp
Welp, I guess there is something to be said for homosexual relationships after all
Yep, I guess so. Chalk a point up in their column on this issue.


Originally Posted by Horm
Newsflash: people like fucking.
lol


Originally Posted by Axgar
I also stated a few times the incest and rape are understandable reasons for an abortion
Heres something I don't understand from the pro-life side. They rant and rave about the 'sanctity of life' and that it is a person from conception, but when it comes to rape or incest they fold and say its understandable. Tell the truth, you're not against abortion...you just want to control people fucking.


Originally Posted by Zzapp
How about just no more 3rd trimester "partial-birth" abortions, except in the cases of incest, severe deformity or retardation, and mother's health issues.
In the case of incest, they have plenty of time before 3rd trimester. In the case of deformity, we don't kill already born children for that. Not that I think its a good thing for them to be born that way. Kind of cruel and unusual if you ask me, but so is killing them. Its a lose/lose situation.


Originally Posted by Everclear
HOWEVER, many abstinance based educational programs (such as those in the Catholic Church) actively seek to discourage and/or PROHIBIT use of contraceptives. That is the assumption I am making when I am referring to "abstinance" as a solution.
I agree, teaching the whole 'no sex at ALL' method is pissing in the wind. What we need to do is teach something along the lines of what Brigiid says she practices. Only have sex in committed, monogomous relationships.
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