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Old 03-02-2006, 03:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by aganitte
There's always the other option; that German unions are run properly, don't stimie employee incentives towards creativity, actually protect from management exploitation and ensure an equitable retirement plan?

Just because US unions screw over both management and employees doesn't mean that other unions screw up too.
I'll grant that possibilty. I really will. But then again, I'm more apt to worry about the Unions in this country than others. I'll even qualify my statements ABOUT labor unions to cover my ignorance about foreign unionization: AMERICAN unions are de DEVIL!

Happy?

Oh, and if you can think of ways to fix the American Unions, short of completely dismantling them, I'm all ears. But just keep in mind what unions recently did to a couple of Airlines...
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Yeah, but Germans are conditioned to be little cogs in socialized wheels from birth. That's why they made such good Nazis. And they made hellaciously good tanks and cars, even back then. They simply live under a socialist government happily. They don't gripe about a 50% Tax wedge (vs the US 30%) either. They're a smaller, more homogenous society that instills a better work ethic. That's DESPITE unions, not because of them. And finally, they have a tradition of being top notch engineers and manufacturers to live up to. And they do. Again, IN SPITE OF Unions. Just think of how much more productive they'd be if they didn't have that dead weight around their necks.

Picasso? Cute.
You already know that. Look at pre-world war 1

They did very well w/o socialism.
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Chiteng
You already know that. Look at pre-world war 1

They did very well w/o socialism.
Kind of my point.
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:49 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Kind of my point.
I think that Europeans simply have a less ruthless exploitation of labor.

They may even actually care what happens to unemployed workers.
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:59 PM   #30
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i could be wrong..i'm just going from memory..but wasn't germany only unified in like the 1890s? i'm thinking it was a loose confederation of city-states before that
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by mepper
i could be wrong..i'm just going from memory..but wasn't germany only unified in like the 1890s? i'm thinking it was a loose confederation of city-states before that
1871 Versailles Hall of Mirrors
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:04 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
Sure! As soon as you can prove that Germany succeeds because they have unions in place... Or is THAT just rhetoric that you expect everyone to believe because you can't prove it either?
You're the one who made the initial claim. Back it up, or fuck off.
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:21 PM   #33
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Drysdale, it takes two to tango. If we didn't have a culture that is so centered on the me-first mentality and addicted to materialism, we wouldn't have a political party who's entire mantra is 'enlightened' self interest as its mating cry.

Are american unions excessively agressive in their fights against management, often forgeting the very welfare of the individuals they are chartered to protect? Certainly! What made them so agressive in the first place? The clear and present danger of explotative upper management within corporations.

In the unions' fights with management they became the very monster they were trying to defeat, but in a country who's entire modus-vivendi is to encircle themselves in a 3 car garage home, where noone knows their neighbors and insists on living in a Micheal Jackson-like bubble of consumables, is it any surprise that unions in the US are incapable of adhering to the social protection ideology upon which they were formed?
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by aganitte
Drysdale, it takes two to tango. If we didn't have a culture that is so centered on the me-first mentality and addicted to materialism, we wouldn't have a political party who's entire mantra is 'enlightened' self interest as its mating cry.
On the other hand, we'd have more European-style worthlessness emerge as people rushed to take advantage of the "enlightened" welfare system. The problem with it all is that we're doing thngs by half measures, and that seldom works in ANY scenario.

Are american unions excessively agressive in their fights against management, often forgeting the very welfare of the individuals they are chartered to protect? Certainly! What made them so agressive in the first place?
Greed and power. They became the very thing they were fighting as less and less scrupulous men were attracted to the upper leadership. Just like politics today versus in the 1700s.


The clear and present danger of explotative upper management within corporations.
See above.

In the unions' fights with management they became the very monster they were trying to defeat, but in a country who's entire modus-vivendi is to encircle themselves in a 3 car garage home, where noone knows their neighbors and insists on living in a Micheal Jackson-like bubble of consumables, is it any surprise that unions in the US are incapable of adhering to the social protection ideology upon which they were formed?
Heck, we don't HAVE to be so material, but we DO need to be more self-sufficient. Knowing your neighbors is a great thing. Heck, I lived in the same neighborhood for almost 20 years growing up and I can still tell you the names of 80% of the houses on my street. (It's only 4 blocks long, but that's still pretty good) But socialism isn't the way into utopia either Ag. Hell, that just invites lazy people to become more lazy. At least where I want to go in life you have to actually DO something to get money. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY should be entitled to the fruits of my labor before me. If I want to give it away, fine. And I have and do. But that should be my choice, not some faceless beauracracy or even worse, some place where I HAVE to join a gang and pay 10% of my earnings just to stay employed! And yeah, union workers can make great money for their troubles... But at what cost? Loss of competitiveness. Yeah, Germany has some fine cars and yeah, they sell a lot. But how many are at the lower end versus being classified as luxury? If a recession hits, Japan and America have plenty of small, cheap cars they can offer. Can Germany? Nope. They have to rely on the luxury market to survive. All well and fine until a recession hits and people have to buy a Kia or a Ford Festiva (perish the thought)

The cheapest (MSRP) German car I could locate was the VW Golf. $16995. Ford has 2 vehicles cheaper, Chevy has 4, including one at $9995. Kia has 6 models selling for less, including a basic SUV. Hell Honda has a couple cheaper and Toyota has 2 cars and 2 trucks cheaper! My point? The German cars may be selling well, but they aren't terribly price-competitive on the lower end. Yeah, you get a nice machine, but someone on a budget won't be buying one. Why are they so expensive? Partially because of heavy unionization in Germany.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:00 PM   #35
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:33 PM   #36
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Couple of things Drys.

First, you say that German cars are luxury vs lower end. Well, that's here. In Germany, taxi cabs drivers drive mercedes and bmw. Its not a high end car there. It just goes to show. What's everday for a german is considered a big deal here. That's what its come to; so cruddy are our cars that what Germany considers simply 'good' we consider something special.

The reason American retailers can charge so much for German cars is because other cars' quality is so stunningly inferior. Its not that each BMW is a labor of love; simple attention to quality and honest work is what makes a car good. Cutting corners, cutting costs is what's landed GM in the pit it is today.

With regards to your declarations against socialism, you all but prove my point when you state that you would hate to have 10 percent of your wages taken to support a union. This is precisely why socialism works in Germany and not here. A German understands the need to perform a collective effort. Americans are too concerend with clutching that 10 percent to their breast that the thought of a collective effort to make society better isn't even in his imagination.

I wouldn't expect America to go socialist any more than I'd expect Germany to produce movies like Rambo. Each one is antithetical to the very culture of the country.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:57 PM   #37
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Not all unions are created equal.

I've done quite a bit of work with IATSE. It's a very good union that's very much needed for that type of work (technitians, designers, and stage hands for theater and film). What it provides for the employee in an enviornment that requires by it's very nature that you change employers on a fairly regular basis, you can still have insurance benifits and a decent pay standard. What it provides for the employer is a moderately reliable (nothing will ever be 100%) standard for quality control: rankings and certifications go up as you can establish your abilities and skill level within those abilities.

It also often serves as a contact service for employment in the field allot of the time. Starting a new show you can often call the union rep. and he will help you find the employees you need based on experience, skill level, and seniority.

They also don't require you to join, though they will understandably give prefferencial treatment to members.

Just because some unions are run poorly or possess political powers that run counteractive to their original intent doesn't mean the concept is bad, merely that two things need to happen: 1) Some unions, such as the teachers union need to re-examine their practices and goals, and 2) Our government needs to continue looking at campaign finance so that interest groups like unions don't have quite so much political wieght with government officials.

Number 2 is probably the big one. The old saying that "A democrat candidate can't get the nomination without the teachers unions" goes an awful long way towards defining the educational policies of what may be the largest political party in the country.

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame unions for US car sales. You'd have to ignore the fact that US automobile designers and marketing teams have been misreading popular trends for the last 20 years. Saturn made a killing when they came out with an affordable basic very-few-frills small sporty car. The SUV market (which seemed to be such a HUGE focus of the big ones like ford and chevy over the past few years) has done very well, but also lost quite allot to companies who were more in tune with the fact that the SUV's weren't really going to rugged outdoorsmen but to suburbanites who also wanted seat warmers, built in computer systems, GPS, and any other luxury item that could be crammed in while still leaving room for leather bucket seats.

Not to mention the fact that employee wages aren't always the only reason for moving factories overseas. Part of the reason is to get a bigger foothold in the foriegn marketplace.

Not that the auto manufacturers union hasn't overstepped itself quite a few times (in spite of Michael Moores anti-GM propaganda), I'm only saying it's probably not fair to let them shoulder the blame entirely for lapses in the US auto market.

I personally like a nice affordable, not too many extras, but reliable small car. 4 doors is good, decent handling, good gas milage and must be nice to look at car. 10 years ago Saturn had a nice offering for me. I like the car, it's good looking, handles well, is the right size, great milage, and the price was awesome..the thing came dirt cheap. Lots of car for not much $$. Even Saturn has fallen down in my eyes since then. The current models are kind of ugly, cost a bunch more, and somehow seem to offer quite a bit less. Not so much car for quite a bit more $$.

It's for this reason far more than whether or not Rosie was taking too many smoke breaks at the plant while building the thing, that I'm starting to look more closely at Japanese models or maybe even shelling out the extra dough for what the germans are offering.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:33 AM   #38
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Ford and GM would be in trouble regardless of the UAW's strongarming - they've run fucking miserable businesses for years and got away with it via sheer bulk of operations. Saturn was good for a while because GM let it run itself, in its own plants, as a nearly autonomous organization. When it did so well, GM hoped that by bringing it back closer to the mothership that would help the rest of the organization- it didn't, and it turned the Saturn into yet another piece of GM-run mediocrity. Despite the hell it will play on the economies, both organizations deserve their failings at this point and I think Bush has done a very good thing by stating up front that there will be no bail-out for the boys in Detroit.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:27 AM   #39
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Wait, wait, wait, he'll bail out the planes but not the cars? Or am I missing something?
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by zzapp the witch
Wait, wait, wait, he'll bail out the planes but not the cars? Or am I missing something?
Correct, though he was hardly alone in the bail out.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by aganitte
With regards to your declarations against socialism, you all but prove my point when you state that you would hate to have 10 percent of your wages taken to support a union. This is precisely why socialism works in Germany and not here. A German understands the need to perform a collective effort. Americans are too concerend with clutching that 10 percent to their breast that the thought of a collective effort to make society better isn't even in his imagination.
There's a large difference between voluntary collectivism and involuntary collectivism. And when a union is in a position to insure involuntary collectivism (such as the California teachers union for example) then it's wrong and needs to be stamped out.

I wouldn't expect America to go socialist any more than I'd expect Germany to produce movies like Rambo. Each one is antithetical to the very culture of the country.
Heck, 1/2 of the nation is already on the road to socialism. Probably more. The lure of something for nothing is very powerful. And putting the burden on those "evil rich white guys" to foot the bills is an easy out, but is also the 1st steps on the slippery slope. And, for a society to truly compete, socialism is a detriment. Germany has a decent blend of socialism and privitization, but it could be a lot better. We have a bad blend of poorly attached solcial programs trying to feed off of capitalism, and it shows. Hell, look at Bush's lovely () perscription medicine bill. That debacle is going to cost our generation and on forward out the ass! And why? Because the gimmee generation votes in record numbers. And we don't. But that travesty is socialism, plain and simple. Take from the productive citizens and give to the less productive citizens by implied force.

Why was America the #1 economy in the world? Was it because we were socialists? Nope. It was because we were capitalists. We put forth our money with the expectation that it would return to us threefold. And it did! Anybody who wanted to make a go of it could. True, we had stupid civil issues to contend with, espescially after the Civil War (Look at the black slave-owners in the South as an example of being able to be an entrepreneur, no matter who you were) but it was the Capitalist ideal that made us such a financial powerhouse.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:22 PM   #42
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heck i vote in record numbers..didnt you see my chicago joke?
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by mepper
heck i vote in record numbers..didnt you see my chicago joke?
Can I call you Mr. Daley?
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:04 PM   #44
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Did I just see you defend american capitalism using black slave owners as an example of exuberant entrepeneurship? Do you just have absolutely no moral compass at all when defending your 'libertarian' ideology?

Lets assume for a moment that America is founded upon this bankrupt ideology of yours. Do you honestly think that it can possibly survive if it does? You seem to advocate an utter dog eat dog mentality when it comes to society. Short of violence (which is of course answered with violence), any type of economic warfare is game in this capitalist free for all you seem to believe we're founded on. What you describe isn't a country. Its a state of slow motion anarchy, with no possibility of survival the moment it is seriously under imminent threat from a foreign power.

Naturally, even I have more faith in the US than that, and think that only a radical few like yourself subscribe to this reactionary ideal, so I know that if push comes to shove, your values will be shelved along with other dystopic fairy tales. When this country comes under threat, be it economic (like the great depression) or war, it pulls together. The socialist ideals of FDR are present in enough americans that it survives, despite allowing people with beliefs like yours to make so much noise as to confuse the the perception of what America is about.

Then again, letting you and Chiteng express your opinions is part and parcel of the American liberty we have all collectively fought to preserve.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:08 PM   #45
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and i believe he actually wrote that with a straight face..and god knows i hardly ever defend drys
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Old 03-04-2006, 09:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by aganitte
Did I just see you defend american capitalism using black slave owners as an example of exuberant entrepeneurship? Do you just have absolutely no moral compass at all when defending your 'libertarian' ideology?

Lets assume for a moment that America is founded upon this bankrupt ideology of yours. Do you honestly think that it can possibly survive if it does? You seem to advocate an utter dog eat dog mentality when it comes to society. Short of violence (which is of course answered with violence), any type of economic warfare is game in this capitalist free for all you seem to believe we're founded on. What you describe isn't a country. Its a state of slow motion anarchy, with no possibility of survival the moment it is seriously under imminent threat from a foreign power.

Naturally, even I have more faith in the US than that, and think that only a radical few like yourself subscribe to this reactionary ideal, so I know that if push comes to shove, your values will be shelved along with other dystopic fairy tales. When this country comes under threat, be it economic (like the great depression) or war, it pulls together. The socialist ideals of FDR are present in enough americans that it survives, despite allowing people with beliefs like yours to make so much noise as to confuse the the perception of what America is about.

Then again, letting you and Chiteng express your opinions is part and parcel of the American liberty we have all collectively fought to preserve.
The reactionary ideal that we should keep what we earn and that we should earn our own way? That nobody but you owns your property??? Yeah.... THAT'S radical...

And I'm sorry if the South wasn't the racist shithole you want it to have been. Just because you wallow in ignorance doesn't mean the rest of us have to. It was seldom about race. It was ALWAYS about the almighty dollar. Hell, there was even 1 black ex-slave who rose up, lived next door to the Governor of (I think it was) Georgia, and attended all the best parties and events. Why? Money. The southerners didn't burn him out, they didn't spit on him. They invited him to their parties. Hmmm Damn that's mighty racist! Hell, You get more racism in your hometown just by being Indian.
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:15 AM   #47
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First.....Dyrsdale has decided that wealth redistribution, thru taxation
is the same as socialism. It isnt.

Second ...Drysdale has decided Unions, mean socialism. They dont.

Any assertions he makes based upon these two fallacies, are invalid.
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Old 03-05-2006, 09:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
the South wasn't the racist shithole you want it to have been.
Are you just feeding me new sig material here Drys? Are you tired of my Nietzsche quote?
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