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Old 01-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #26
Aerrow Trueflight
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O where to start o where to start.

First things first. Furo your a uncle fucker for even bringing an article like this up in the first place. Bumbles your a blithering idiot for arguing against a newspaper. And finnallly

WTF. Most of you people have no idea what stress even begins to look like. Most of you have never been shot at, or had 81mm mortars land 20 meters from you, knocking you on your ass and sending you into a wall. Im betting all of you have never made contact with an IED that tore through the truck in front of you killing everyone inside. You dont just shake that shit off. Some people are so racked with guilt and anger that lashing out seems like a feesable option. Sometimes its worse than others, but seriously if only 81 out of a 10000 are commiting crimes based on PTSD then id say that im releaved that the number of regular murders and suicides werent counted in that article in comparison.

When you try to write back to the states and your hands are shaking so bad that you have to have your best friend help you out, you let me know and ill once again let you know why some people might go bonkers. Hell just reread this post and stomach punch you self.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:51 PM   #27
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You are an idiot if you think stress only results from combat. I am sure your parents experienced a ton of it once your test scores came back in school.

You cops, fireman, or other random professions out there where you are under stress on a daily basis didnt even realize you were imagining shit all this time eh?
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Well, one of the problems they'd have is that there's probably a fair number of soldiers who saw combat in the first Iraq war which would be included in the pre-2001 statistics (and there after). Not to mention they don't seem to mention how large the groups are (e.g. are there more soldiers post 9/11 than pre 9/11, etc).

From what I've seen, it's rare for journalists to know how to transform random data into meaningful statistics.
Actually there are very few active duty Soldiers who served in Gulf 1. I don't know the exact answer, but an example is my Brigade of over 3,000 Soldiers. I maybe came across 3 or 4 Soldiers throughout my deployment that had experience in Gulf One.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot View Post
Originally Posted by furo
That translates to 86 murders per 1.5 Million.
Something ain't right with your math Furo. You state two different numbers for the same situation. And just so you know, 121 is greater than the 86 you stated.
The numbers are different only because the FBI stats are using an average city with 500,000 to 1 Million people in it.

The second stat I use is the total national average, neglecting everything, including age , and population density.

So bumbles, you own yourself yet again for failing at some simple comprehension.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by furo View Post
Actually there are very few active duty Soldiers who served in Gulf 1. I don't know the exact answer, but an example is my Brigade of over 3,000 Soldiers. I maybe came across 3 or 4 Soldiers throughout my deployment that had experience in Gulf One.
Sure, but you're probably looking at 2006-08 (roughly).

From the original artcle:
The Times used the same methods to research homicides involving all active-duty military personnel and new veterans for the six years before and after the present wartime period began with the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
So, it would probably be Sept 1996 - Sept 2001 in the before group, and Oct 2001 - Oct 2007 in the other (I'm just guessing based on what they say). So, around in 1996 (and probably a few years after) you're likely to have a fair number of Gulf 1 folks.

That said, it does bring up an interesting point - it would be reasonable to also measure the rate amongst veterns no longer active. But I don't think they've really intended this as a statistically meaningful comparison - it's just anecodatal with a sprinkling of numbers.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ShardmoonVer.1 View Post
You are an idiot if you think stress only results from combat. I am sure your parents experienced a ton of it once your test scores came back in school.

You cops, fireman, or other random professions out there where you are under stress on a daily basis didnt even realize you were imagining shit all this time eh?
Did you notice the MOST of you i said in my original post. I never claimed that ALL of you didn't know what real stress was. I understand stress related issues that result from high stress jobs all to well.

As for my parents, they fucking didn't kill anyone over my grades in school. So i guess that was stress well wasted?

Cops, Firemen, and other random profession that you speak of also get to go FUCKING HOME after work if they survive. They may get to have sex with their wives, or maybe even drink a few beers and watch the game with some friends. They dont have to stay in a country 7000 miles away hoping they get to see their loved ones again. They dont have to quit drinking and having sex and work every day without a break. Dont fucking letcure me on fucking stress. You'd just be wasting key strokes. And i know its a personal choice and no one forced anyone to join the military, but we do it for pricks like you so you can play your EQ and post on your forums and piss all over liberty.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:20 PM   #32
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Actually, I read exactly what you said. Did you? You said most of you people and then followed it up with specific combat related examples. Every thing else after that was like listening to Charlie Browns parents.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:22 PM   #33
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Bumbles your a blithering idiot for arguing against a newspaper.
Aerrow you must still be shell-shocked. I haven't argued against the newspaper.


Originally Posted by Furo
The numbers are different only because the FBI stats are using an average city with 500,000 to 1 Million people in it.

The second stat I use is the total national average, neglecting everything, including age , and population density.
Are you admitting that you are using fuzzy math? Or are you admitting that you will use a different set of stats for the same things? You can do better than that Furo.

I never claimed that ALL of you didn't know what real stress was.
Oh by the way Aerrow, I have been shot at. It was during a drunken episode and I was throwing stuff off of a roof.
And just so you know, everyone chooses the stress they get. You chose to be a soldier, stop whining then about being shot at then, it goes with the job. Don't for one second think you are better simply because you chose to live a more dangerous level of stress. And as far as stress, watching your mother die is about as stressful as what you describe. So to assume that you are the sole possessor of stress is wrong. Everyone goes through periods of intense stress. Many don't whine about it though.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot View Post
Oh by the way Aerrow, I have been shot at. It was during a drunken episode and I was throwing stuff off of a roof.
O yeah i forgot, being shot totally makes it so that you know exactly what ive gone through. Sheesh, how foolish of me.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:44 PM   #35
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Having grown up a military brat, and also having lived and worked near Ft. Hood for over a decade, I've come to know a large number of military personnel who've seen combat. Some enjoyed it. Others hated it.

Of the ones who hated it, the vast majority of them choose never to speak of it. The few who do only do so in private, and change the subject quickly. Many of them say that the ones who remind people over and over again that they've been shot at were the ones who joined simply to lord it over everyone else.

Me? I just keep my mouth shut around them so they can change the topic as they see fit.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:33 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Aerrow Trueflight View Post
Did you notice the MOST of you i said in my original post. I never claimed that ALL of you didn't know what real stress was. I understand stress related issues that result from high stress jobs all to well.

As for my parents, they fucking didn't kill anyone over my grades in school. So i guess that was stress well wasted?

Cops, Firemen, and other random profession that you speak of also get to go FUCKING HOME after work if they survive. They may get to have sex with their wives, or maybe even drink a few beers and watch the game with some friends. They dont have to stay in a country 7000 miles away hoping they get to see their loved ones again. They dont have to quit drinking and having sex and work every day without a break. Dont fucking letcure me on fucking stress. You'd just be wasting key strokes. And i know its a personal choice and no one forced anyone to join the military, but we do it for pricks like you so you can play your EQ and post on your forums and piss all over liberty.
It sounds like you made the wrong life decision. That's a lot of anger, envy, and disdain for civilians you've got going on there. 122?
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:39 AM   #37
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So why did you join the army, Lee Harvey?
Well, I figured I better join up before I got drafted.
Son, there is no draft.
There was one?
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Old 01-14-2008, 09:17 AM   #38
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I see this article as a commentary on the stresses of combat, not a slam against vets.
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Old 01-14-2008, 09:27 AM   #39
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I saw it as an attack on our Iraq and Afgan policy since it didnt try and bring any context beyond current events. The implication being that this war is some how more magicly evil and is causing troops to get all nutty over it.
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Old 01-14-2008, 09:28 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
I see this article as a commentary on the stresses of combat, not a slam against vets.
True- but perhaps even more than that, a commentary on how we often fail these guys when they come back in terms of providing adequate support for their transition back to regular life. I'd sure want a little bit more than a set of discharge papers and a salute after getting shot at for a year+, but I'm not sure we provide much more than that and clearly some of these guys need it.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:36 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot View Post
Are you admitting that you are using fuzzy math? Or are you admitting that you will use a different set of stats for the same things? You can do better than that Furo.
I'm admitting that two separate sources use two separate means to report a statistic, bumbles... both of which prove my point.

Either way you look at it, the average rate of homicides for Iraq/Afghanistan vets is lower than the nation's.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:40 AM   #42
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That's what I got from it... the need for greater services for veterans... which I completely support.

Originally Posted by Aerrow
O yeah i forgot, being shot totally makes it so that you know exactly what ive gone through. Sheesh, how foolish of me
No, but we all made our own life choices... we don't know how yours affect you and you don't know how others affect them.

Personally, those hardships you refer to about military life are just a few reasons why I didn't join. You did... deal with it. You see me whining about my liability in financial matters? Part of the job... it's what you agree to going in to a career.

I find my job can be highly stressful (especially at year end!)... but I enjoy the work immensely and that is why I chose this profession. If you didn't enjoy your profession, then maybe you made a mistake.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
I see this article as a commentary on the stresses of combat, not a slam against vets.
I see it as an attack against vets.

Why? Because they report a statistic in the first line underneath the headline as significant, when in fact, this statistic demonstrates that these vets are less homicidal than the average American!

The NYT doesn't want to report the truth. They know that the truth hurts the impact that the article has.

I could write an entirely effective article highlighting the stresses of combat, and use the exact same statistic to point out that vets from Iraq/Afghanistan are committing less murders in the nation than in the average city.
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Old 01-14-2008, 12:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
I'd sure want a little bit more than a set of discharge papers and a salute after getting shot at for a year+
Well so would I. I've got 3 brothers in the military, two of which are definitely different since coming home. The third hasn't been in as long, so time will tell.

Bringing to light something that a lot of people might not think about is a good idea, I think. And it is kinda put in their heads that they aren't supposed to complain. They're supposed to be tough and deal with it. That might not come from the mouths of their superiors, but that feeling is definitely out there.

Originally Posted by Furo
I see it as an attack against vets.

Why? Because they report a statistic in the first line underneath the headline as significant, when in fact, this statistic demonstrates that these vets are less homicidal than the average American!
I still don't see how that's an attack on our vets. Pointing out a problem? Sure. Maybe needling at politicians? Sure. But I don't see the individual vet attacked here.
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Old 01-14-2008, 12:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
I still don't see how that's an attack on our vets. Pointing out a problem? Sure. Maybe needling at politicians? Sure. But I don't see the individual vet attacked here.
It's like the story that says "53 children choked on spoons last year." It's intended to raise an alarm against those evil spoons. Or the reports of 300 kids dying of gunshot accidens. Of course, seeing as how there are millions of kids a year and the number of gunshot accidents is at it's lowest in 100 years, that should be a relatively good thing. But only showing 1 side of the story makes it look completely bad, and dammit, why are we letting kids near guns! They're all gonna die! [/sarcasm]
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:10 PM   #46
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I see it as an attack against vets.

Why? Because they report a statistic in the first line underneath the headline as significant, when in fact, this statistic demonstrates that these vets are less homicidal than the average American!
So, if you say the rate is shown to be lower than the general populace, how then is the NYT attacking vets? By saying they are better?
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post

I still don't see how that's an attack on our vets.
Then I'm not sure what to say.

Maybe I can paint a clearer picture... if your local city newspaper ran a front page story with the headline:

Cops have murdered 26 citizens in the past five years in this city

You would not see this as an attack on cops?

Or how about this: Can you ever imagine a NYT article with this headline?--

12,499 out of every 12,500 troops have come home after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan without committing crimes such as homicide

See the glaring difference, Brigiid?

The NYT is deliberately and selectively pulling out a meaningless statistic to paint the vets here as a group of thugs.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by furo View Post
Maybe I can paint a clearer picture... if your local city newspaper ran a front page story with the headline:

Cops have murdered 26 citizens in the past five years in this city
Actually, that's a pretty common sort of headline. Heck, stuff like "30 deaths from cop's tazers in past year" was a running theme for 2007 in Houston. Apparently tazers (according to journalists) are about 1200% more lethal than guns.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Actually, that's a pretty common sort of headline. Heck, stuff like "30 deaths from cop's tazers in past year" was a running theme for 2007 in Houston. Apparently tazers (according to journalists) are about 1200% more lethal than guns.
And you don't see it as an attack on cops?
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by furo View Post
And you don't see it as an attack on cops?
Not really, but I'm probably more cynical than most when it comes to journalists. I don't think they're necessarily bad folks - just not overly committed to doing the research and legwork to present a balanced overall picture, especially when they figure that folks are more interested in the emotional angle.

You're not going to sell a paper with "12,499 out of 12,500 folks don't go beserk and kill people". You're going to sell it with "A guy goes beserk and kills people". And heck, that's a paper. The TV media is going to stick to Britney & such - unless that guy manages to kill a lot of people.
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