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Old 11-14-2006, 10:06 AM   #51
Chiteng
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Originally Posted by Everclear
She has to support the child alone... that is bad. Or what? You would prefer to put her in front of a firing squad, so she can be killed and the KID can go without a mother? You ever stop to think how your completely non commensurate ideas of punishment would affect the kid? Yet another example of you having no problem hurting innocents in your relentless and illogical pursuit of revenge.

The court isn't there for revenge, it's there for justice. If the man gave his time and money as a gift he has no claim to expect to be oaid back. Wanna sue the lady for fraud? Prove it. Prove she knew he wasn't the father, good luck! Oh, and what exactly do you expect to win that won't hurt the child now the she is its sole supporter? I love how your "version" of justice includes getting back at anyone who you dislike, and has no regard for hurting people who had nothing to do with the situation... but then you can always offer "there are no innocents"... or claim that every situation is war... and I suppose that makes it all ok to you. I suppose that is a tyrant's version of justice. It jsut really makes me wonder... you claim to be concerned about "the people"... but it seems to me you are more of a wannabe dictator who hates any authority other than his own.
First I didnt suggest any punishment. I pointed out that nothing bad happens to her. If nothing bad is a result, then there is no detterent to doing that. The opposite is the case. You are rewarding her for lying.
That isnt justice. This is the message that young women will pick up.
Screw whoever you want, and if you get caught, frame the guy than can support you best.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Axgar
IF the laws mandated say a one year possible prison term and a 10k fine for PURPOSELY lieing about the paternrity of a child then maybe more women would either tell the truth.........
The easy way around that is to keep no proof that she knows who the father really is. Don't tell anyone, don't write it in your diary, etc. Then how are they going to prove that she knew he wasn't the father and intentionally kept it from him?
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:10 PM   #53
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Actually, since men can demand a paternity test before being legally liable, I see no problem here. Reward women for lying? Hardly, when thier lies cannot withstand a simple paternity test. In fact, if nothing it says, you try to lie, you will get caught holding the bag. The girls better be sure of the father before trying to rope some guy in!

If a schmuck refuses the paternity test and decides to support a child on nothing more than the girl's words, that is his choice. He is doing so of his own free will.

Chit- You claim you didn't suggest punishment for the mother... yet you called for "justice to be visited on the mother"... and what form are is this justice supposed to take taht ALSO satisfies your request that "something bad" happen to the mother or that she "suffer" ? Just because you didn't say the word punishment, doesn't mean you aren't asking for it. How would you inflict a detriment on a mother for doing what she did and satisfy your other requests without punishing??
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Last edited by Everclear; 11-14-2006 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Axgar
How do you know the guy would have married and been with her for 12 years had she not had a child?
How do you know he wouldn't? The court doesn't rule on speculation, it rules on facts. The FACT is he did it willingly and without expectation of being paid back.


Originally Posted by Ax
Ec goes so far as to blame a man because he doesnt take his time to get a DNA test, I say fuck that, a relationship is supposed to be built on trust and love ect....... you can't tell me that you trust someone IF your off getting a DNA test everytime that the wife/gf gets pregnant.
If you trust and love someone, and want to raise a child with them, then paternity shouldn't matter. You say I blame the man, but you jsut blame the woman. If a man is having unprotected sex with a woman and she gets pregnant, that is a risk he assumed. As far as be required to support the child... yes a man can easily get a paternity test if he wants to find out if the legal obligation is his. If he CHOOSES instead to trust the woman and loves her, then he is willingly assuming the obligation himself! In that case who cares whose child it is? He will be father to the child.

Originally Posted by Ax
IF the laws mandated say a one year possible prison term and a 10k fine for PURPOSELY lieing about the paternrity of a child then maybe more women would either tell the truth......... as far as im concerned NOT saying anything IS lieing in cases like this.
So you heap all the responsibility on the woman! Is there a prison term for men who deny a child that IS thiers? No. You would have an infants mother thrown in jail because she lied or maybe didn't know the truth herself? Great way to punish the kid for the intentional or unintentional acts of the mother!

A man can get a test... if a man has the option for finding out the truth, then it's his fault for not pursuing that option. If he decides not to, then that is his assumption of the child as his own, and he can assume liability for the child. Besides, at any time he can get the test and if it isn't his, he can walk away... It's not like the mother can do that! There are plenty of ways for a man to opt out of the situation, without having some woman hating laws passed.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:25 PM   #55
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Theres a goddamn penalty if they DONT pay for the child though EC jesus christ your smarter than that, what you just wrote was point blank you being blind, because I know your not that stupid.

If a woman lies to a man the bitch should be punished, this isnt the fucking movies where everyones lifes goes back to normal after you turn of the power, fuck with 12 years of a guys life then decide you don't love him anymore so you get a divorce and let him know the kid isn't his and you still stick up for this crazy whore.

As far as a paternity test are you going to go get one for your husband as soon as you get pregnant? and what are you going to say when he asks for one, I mean let him read what you just wrote so that he knows that he should have one taken.......... or would that be bad since its you involved and he should KNOW that you wouldnt cheat on him? but then again you just said if he dont make you get one that he is an idiot (basically is what you said).
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:32 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ax
Theres a goddamn penalty if they DONT pay for the child though EC j
Yeah, if they don't get a test, or it shows it's thiers.... or if they have made an arrangement where the child is dependent on them, they might have to pay because of thier obligation to the child as a provider that they assumed. They have to pay to the kid, not to the crazy hoe.

Originally Posted by Ax
If a woman lies to a man the bitch should be punished
Yeah, well if a man agree to raise a child based on what she says, then he chooses to believe it, he's not a child. He can be responsible for himself.

Originally Posted by Ax
As far as a paternity test are you going to go get one for your husband as soon as you get pregnant? and what are you going to say when he asks for one, I mean let him read what you just wrote so that he knows that he should have one taken.......... or would that be bad since its you involved and he should KNOW that you wouldnt cheat on him? but then again you just said if he dont make you get one that he is an idiot (basically is what you said).
I don't care! If I get pregnant I KNOW it's his, and if he wants to have a paternity test, that's fine. Why? Because when a child is in the picture, you need to think about what is best for the child, and put petty pride issues aside. If my husband wants to know with certainty that the child is his, then I have no problem with easing his mind, and providing the means of ensuring support for my child! Maybe the problem is that you are caught up in the pride issue and ignore the bigger picture! My husband asking for a paternity test ISN'T him calling me a whore, it's him making the informed decision to assume a lifelong responsibility! HELL, I get a cost sheet before I buy a damn car, why would I expect any less before raising a child!? I would have a paternity test to make sure it was MY kid, if it wasn't me carrying it!! (Hospital mixups happen, too!) Maybe we ought to actually be thankful for and actually use this wonderful technollogy we have, instead of acting like street thugs, more concerned about our reputations than providing a stable life for the child.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:39 PM   #57
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comparing a car to a child is assinine.

you can't put a price on trust and If I feel that I cant trust that a child is mine I won't be with the woman........ I guess Im old school, marriage for a tax write off isn't in my cards.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:43 PM   #58
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Well.. apparently neither is the belief in making informed decisions then.

You're right, buying a car is nothing compared to raising a child, and yet we still believe in having all available information for that!

Personally, I believe as a mother my first responsibility is to my child, and if that means a paternioty test to ensure some means for my child then that is more important than some notion of pride. Romantic ideas are great, but the child's welfare isn't yours to gamble with.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:49 PM   #59
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well EC, I do not plan to gamble, IF I am with a woman one night and she gets pregnant there will be a paternity test, IF I am married to her or plan to marry her there will not be, IF I cant trust her I won't marry here, marriage should not be a 99 percent Im sure I trust my spouse thing it should be 100 percent.

Now of course there are warning signs and if something comes up to give you the impression that things are not right then you are an idiot not to have a paternity test......... there arent always indications though.....are there?
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:53 PM   #60
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No, of course there aren't always signs. If there is deception, you won't find out until it's too late. I can't imagine that these men who were lied to didn't trust the women... it would be logical to assume that they DID trust the women, and it got them in trouble... which is why I would suggest getting the test at the beginning to avoid any complications down the road. It's a preventative measure that ensures stability for the child. You have to understand, my position places the CHILD at the center of concern, not the parents or couple... you are focusing on the dynamics of the couple's resltionship, but to me, that is not as important as ensuring stability for the CHILD. Someone wanting to get a pat test to ensure responsibility for the kid will be taken care of.... you really can't fault them for that. I couldn't fault my husband for wanting to make sure it was his responsibility, and he shouldn't fault me for wanting the test, either to ensure that whatever happens, the child is taken care of and has a father.
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Everclear
How do you know he wouldn't? The court doesn't rule on speculation, it rules on facts. The FACT is he did it willingly and without expectation of being paid back.
What about the fraud perpetrated on the father? He took care of a child that was misrepresented as his in a relationship that was based on lies and infidelity, that he had no knowledge of. He's the victim of both fraud AND breach of (marriage) contract.

I agree with Ax. a married man shouldn't necessarily rush out and get a DNA test for paternity. That's kind of paranoid, although maybe more men should considering the amout of cuckolding going on in this country...
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:19 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Drys
He's the victim of both fraud AND breach of (marriage) contract.
Fraud... maybe... if you can prove it. Breach of marriage contract? Oh please. If that is true, it's grounds for anullment, that's about it. As far as anything beyond that, speculative.

Originally Posted by Drys
I agree with Ax. a married man shouldn't necessarily rush out and get a DNA test for paternity.
That's fine, if they want to waive the ability to gain conclusive proof of their liability that is jsut fine, then they CHOOSE to assume the liability themselves, and are not due any compensation.

Besides, if the only reason they are staying with someone is becasue they think they have to because it's thier kid... then they are stupid for not finding out if it really is thier kid... if they are staying with someone for other reasons, then that is thier choice. You can't make the argument that thier staying with someone depended on one factor, which they refused to confirm. If it was so damn important, they should have verified the information. Even in contract law they would have to show DUE DILIGENCE and an attempt to mitigate thier loss. Neither woould be done by someone passing up a solid chance to find out the paternity.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:04 PM   #63
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So basically a man is a dumbass is some whore he trusted shits on him because you women carry all the power.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:26 PM   #64
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Heck, just make it so that every child gets their DNA tested to show who the parents are. Give it to the parental units after the child is born.

Have a big poster on the wall advertising local divorce lawyers. So you'll not only solve the whole issue my mandating it in law, but you'll also help along the economy in that area! Boy, what a win-win situation.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Karthanon
Heck, just make it so that every child gets their DNA tested to show who the parents are. Give it to the parental units after the child is born.

Have a big poster on the wall advertising local divorce lawyers. So you'll not only solve the whole issue my mandating it in law, but you'll also help along the economy in that area! Boy, what a win-win situation.
That is a damn good idea.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:24 PM   #66
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I've got no problem with that.
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:12 AM   #67
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Sounds good.
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:34 AM   #68
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Mandatory DNA testing would avoid the problem of fathers raising children which aren't theirs, but would probably cause a substantial increase in the # of abortions. If the mom isn't 100% sure about that baby's paternity, she's probably not going to take the risk (unless she decides she wants a baby more than she cares if her partner to stick around).

If you've got no issue w/ abortion, that's not a problem.

Somehow I think that in terms of social impact, it's not a good idea.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:02 AM   #69
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I don't mind mandatory paternity tests... it's better than allowing an easy falsification of a birth certificate. I think it's a good idea, especially in regards to potential abuse regarding immigrants.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:33 PM   #70
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I'm hoping that women would choose not to cheat, rather than to cheat and have an abortion to cover her tracks.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Everclear
Fraud... maybe... if you can prove it. Breach of marriage contract? Oh please. If that is true, it's grounds for anullment, that's about it. As far as anything beyond that, speculative.
If she did, in fact, lie to him about the paternity of the child, she owes him at LEAST the money he spent in child support over the years. At LEAST. And I agree about the anullment. Give him back everything he put in, give her back everything she put in, and then he should be able to sue her for fraud.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:47 PM   #72
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Well Ihave observed that there are two types of people in the world.

Those that are willing to cheat, and those that are not.

I have also observed that once they start to cheat, they 'tend'
to not give doing it again alot of consideration.

So whatever it takes to preserve the well being of BOTH the Father
and the Child.

Mandatory testing would not bother me at all, lets toss HiV testing
in also.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:11 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Drys
she owes him at LEAST the money he spent in child support over the years
Based on what? If it was child support, then it was given to the CHILD, not to the mother. Unless the father thinks he can sue the child for support because it wasn't his then there is no case for that claim. As far as the money the two spent together, too bad. Taht is the price you pay for marrying/falling in lvoe with a liar. There is no reason to believe that he contributed to the marriage expecting anything in return, and therefor no basis to award payback... there is nothing to pay BACK for... nothing was expected in return.

Now if there was a prenup, it might be a different story... then you might have a case that certain expectations were in place, and that if violated, she would have no/or a limited claim to the property of the couple.. otherwise, too bad. Taht is what a marriage license is, it binds two people. Be careful who you bind yourself, to... because as far as I know, contributing to yourself (as part of a joint entity) is non-refundable! Aside from personal items, which were gifts, given of his free will.. there is only property, for which he had use, also... and money, for which by marrying he legally entitles his wife to a claim (although there ARE ways of dividing them oney up)... what else is there to judge against? LOL... you act like there was a loan arrangement that stipulated the child be his for the money to be given... there was no such agreement, and the money was given for use for the child's needs.
... now if child support ordered by the court.. or possibly given by a father was used by a woman for selfish needs... then you could sue on behalf of the child...
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:27 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
and then he should be able to sue her for fraud
He should be able to try, I just don't see it going anywhere in court.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:54 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Chiteng
So whatever it takes to preserve the well being of BOTH the Father
and the Child.
Well maybe they can blow the mother up with firecrackers and roast hot dogs on her exploded head. Then the man can take the child and raise him as a communist who hates women.
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