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Old 11-14-2006, 05:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
Actually, congrats to both states. They held votes on propositions and allowed the citizens to decide, rather than a bunch of corrupt politicians sneaking it in under the radar on a bigger bill.

We live in a Democratic country Heretic.
We do? Damn! The Founding Fathers are gonna be pissed! They never wanted a Democracy! When did we change the Constitution?
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Old 11-14-2006, 07:10 PM   #52
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I find it offensive and if I want to stop two queers from making out and making me sick to my stomach I will....... simple as that its not supposed to be in public anyway, if they want to be gay go to a gay bar, if they want to drink....... they can drink all they want.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:46 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
We do? Damn! The Founding Fathers are gonna be pissed! They never wanted a Democracy! When did we change the Constitution?
So why the hell are we trying to spread democracy through out the world if we don't have it ourselves? Damn we're a bunch of fucking hypocrites.
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:53 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Axgar
I find it offensive and if I want to stop two queers from making out and making me sick to my stomach I will....... simple as that its not supposed to be in public anyway, if they want to be gay go to a gay bar, if they want to drink....... they can drink all they want.
Apply that to straight people as well.

Actually it was funny. I was at a hockey game last week and this girl starts nibbling on this guys neck pretty much in front of me. A woman behind me yells at them to get a room. I laughed. I agreed.

I don't care who it is that's getting all hot and heavy in public....save it for more personal space. Don't matter if it's boy/girl, boy/boy, girl/girl action. There's times and places for that.
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by bumble
Actually its not illegal. No state is required to Marry anyone.
True, but when benefits are given, they must not be discriminatory by law.


Originally Posted by celedine
Just because the choice is automatic for me doesn't mean that a choice isn't being made.
It should be obvious, but something 'automatic' isn't a choice.


Originally Posted by celedine
The decision to be attracted to someone occurs on a more subconscious level, but your subconscious mind still weighs, measures, and catalogs a person and decides whether it finds them attractive or not.
But since it is 'subconscious', it is not an active choice you have control over.


Originally Posted by everclear
Personally, I prefer not to see anyone make out. If you let some make out, then you have to let the fat people make out, and no one wants to see that.
I would prefer not to also, but they still have a right to do it. There is no right to not be offended.


Originally Posted by axgar
simple as that its not supposed to be in public anyway
So sayeth Axgar, and so it was.....
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:06 AM   #56
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Well... I am not saying that I think there should be laws prohibitng public affection... but I am a full supporter of a business owner's policy against it! I mean there are some things that should be governed by etiquette and civility, not by the government... sucking face in public is one of those things. Sure, I don't expect someone to be arrested for being trashy, but they shouldn't be surprised when others react unfavorably. Shouting "get a roon" is a good example.. Another example might be asking if they need someone to call the cops, because it looks like that man is trying to eat her face.

If you are in a night club... that's different... It's a bar, and 18 + and all that... so whatever...
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Axgar
if they want to be gay go to a gay bar
Ahh.... segregation lives.
Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
if you want to live in the 1950s go back to the 1950s
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:10 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Heretic
For the millionth time, when did you choose to be straight?
Ok, this is something that has been bugging me. If homosexuality were a choice, why does that mean heterosexuality must also be a choice? It's not possible that everyone is born "straight" and some are then turned gay?

While I'm on the subject, here's something else that's been bothering me. Take Anne Heche. First, she was attracted to men, then she was attracted to women, now she's attracted to men again. Seems to blow a hole in the theory that they can't change, now doesn't it?
Originally Posted by Celedine
I make a choice to be straight every time I go home to my wife, and every time I turn down a guy hitting on me. Just because the choice is automatic for me doesn't mean that a choice isn't being made.
The decision to be attracted to someone occurs on a more subconscious level, but your subconscious mind still weighs, measures, and catalogs a person and decides whether it finds them attractive or not. Have you never had a friend in a bar on halloween who's checking out some chick's posterior, only to be horrified when they turn around and have a beard? (this is an example) Attractiveness occurs on a perceptual level, not a quantum one.
You know, Cel, I know we've had our differences, but that was very well spoken.
Originally Posted by Heretic
GAYS ARE CAUSING THE APOCALYPSE, FILM AT 11!
No, they're just causing terror attacks.

/flee
Originally Posted by Heretic
It should be obvious, but something 'automatic' isn't a choice.
If there is more than one option on the table, then yeah, it is a choice.
Originally Posted by Heretic
But since it is 'subconscious', it is not an active choice you have control over.
Do you really mean to say that we have no control over our own subconscious?
Originally Posted by Heretic
I mean there are some things that should be governed by etiquette and civility, not by the government... sucking face in public is one of those things.
In my opinion, simple public affection shouldn't be governed by anything. I don't wanna see two guys kissing, so I'll just look the other way. As long as it isn't obscene, I don't think expressing affection, public or otherwise, should be stifled in the least bit.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wildane
You know, Cel, I know we've had our differences, but that was very well spoken.
/bow thanks, I have a lucid moment every now and then. Just because we have frequent differences of opinion doesn't mean we can't maintain a civilized debate.

Originally Posted by Wildane
No, they're just causing terror attacks. /flee
The only people the gays are terrorizing are the religious right It's all a conspiracy to make Ax watch men kissing.

Originally Posted by Wildane
Do you really mean to say that we have no control over our own subconscious?
This gets into a whole realm of Freud vs Skinner vs Jung, and surprise surprise homosexuality is dealt with in great detail by all 3 theorists. Short personal opinion, you don't have direct control over subconscious impulses but you can control how they manifest in your conscious life.

Originally Posted by Wildane
In my opinion, simple public affection shouldn't be governed by anything. I don't wanna see two guys kissing, so I'll just look the other way. As long as it isn't obscene, I don't think expressing affection, public or otherwise, should be stifled in the least bit.
I agree in principle but, at some point, hetero or homo, ya gotta get a room. If people want to see porn, they can go home and check their bulk email box.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:09 PM   #60
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Well.. even if we assume that it is a total controllable choice (which I don't believe)... why is it that the religious right has no problem with people choosing to eat Big Macs and all sorts of other terribly unhealthy decisions that cause GREAT quantifiable harm to individuals and cost society as a whole, while they make such a commotion over this? It's aburdity, imo. Yet, there you have some people who go on and on about how gross it is that two guys kiss, yet stuff thier (what I consider gross) large mouths with Whoppers or Big Macs and cheese fries. It's hialriously hypocritical and quite inconsistant from a social perspective.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Wildane
While I'm on the subject, here's something else that's been bothering me. Take Anne Heche. First, she was attracted to men, then she was attracted to women, now she's attracted to men again. Seems to blow a hole in the theory that they can't change, now doesn't it?
I'm really surprised someone hasn't responded to this comment already. I think it's been brought up on these boards before. Whomever responded to it then basically said that Anne Heche was probably never really gay, she was just pretending to be for publicity's sake.

Or there's the possibility that she's bisexual (not controllable, according to Heretic), and that her desire for men is just overriding her desire for women right now.

There's any number of theories that don't really have anything to do with the reality of a situation. Unless she comes out and says that she was never gay and was just faking it, we can't really know what happened there.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:06 PM   #62
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It certainly wouldn't be the first case of someone "acting" a certain way to furtehr thier own career. It's Hollywood, afterall...
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:25 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Celedine
Short personal opinion, you don't have direct control over subconscious impulses but you can control how they manifest in your conscious life.
Well, I don't mean to say we have direct control over our subconscious; it would then no longer be a subconscious. What I mean is, your subconscious doesn't go against your nature or character. I mean, why would you subconsciously do something that you wouldn't normally do anyway? I'm no scientist, so that probably sounds a little vague, but I can't really express it better than that.
Originally Posted by Celedine
I agree in principle but, at some point, hetero or homo, ya gotta get a room.
Well, that's why I said simple public affection, such as kissing. If the hands start to wander, then yes, that shit needs to stay indoors.
Originally Posted by Everclear
why is it that the religious right has no problem with people choosing to eat Big Macs and all sorts of other terribly unhealthy decisions that cause GREAT quantifiable harm to individuals and cost society as a whole, while they make such a commotion over this?
Because they don't see anything morally wrong with eating Big Macs (although they should.....body being temple of God and everything).
Originally Posted by Everclear
It's hialriously hypocritical and quite inconsistant from a social perspective.
Since the two situations are hardly related, other than what some would consider to be gross (which is subjective anyway), I don't see how you can call it hypocritical.
Originally Posted by Everclear
It certainly wouldn't be the first case of someone "acting" a certain way to furtehr thier own career. It's Hollywood, afterall...
Surely you don't believe hers is the only case on the planet. I was just using her as an example of what I believe to be a highly possible situation.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Everclear
It certainly wouldn't be the first case of someone "acting" a certain way to furtehr thier own career. It's Hollywood, afterall...
And that may very well be, but we can't just assume that she was faking it (or wasn't) because it supports either one of our arguments. She might not have ever been gay in the first place, or she might have been, and might've changed.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:37 PM   #65
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I am not saying she was or wasn't.. I am just saying it wouldn't be the first case of someone acting a certain way to further thier career. Personally, I have no clue what (if anything) goes on in Heche's head... personally I don't really care... and wouldn't use her as proof of anything.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Because they don't see anything morally wrong with eating Big Macs (although they should.....body being temple of God and everything).
Yes... I agree... although I also think part of the problem is the only see what they want to and ignore the rest.

Originally Posted by Wildane
I don't see how you can call it hypocritical.
Well... for the reasons they argue against homosexuality... primarily.. divine condemnation... naturality... and percieved harmful effects on society.

Now, I am no theological expert, but I know that gluttony was frowned upon pretty directly... I can't think of ANYTHING natural about a Big Mac...and the health condition of society is such taht obesity is a much larger problem (no pun intended) than homosexuality!

From a social perspective... I believe it is hypocritical, because (religious aspects aside) as a society, people claim they don't want to have to experience it (yet I am forced to see zepplin bodied men and women devour hoagies or mcnuggets or some new chickwich sandwich)... which is inconsistant... I mean if we are going to mandate some kind of decorum, there are much better places to start! They also claim that acceptance of it as "normal" could harm society, but I read a Newsweek article that said part of the reason there are so damned many fat people is because it isn't as shameful as it used to be!

Now I know that my opinion on weight problems is rude, but obesity causes millions possibly more in health care costs alone each year! As a society, where do we get off trying to discourage gay behavior before we make a good attempt at discouraging THIS kind of behavior? Refusal of marraige is like a tax on gays.... where's the FAT TAX?

The point is, that I think it's hypocraitical and funny. We were warned about removing the splinter from our neighbor's eye while we have a tree (or log) in our own... I think it's funny when that log looks a lot like a giant twinki and fat fundies ignore it, because they can't live without thier damn Mc Rib. Oh yeah! Throw stones at them damn gays and pass that BBQ sauce!!
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Everclear
Now I know that my opinion on weight problems is rude
Yeah, and if you've ever condemned Axgar's feelings towards homosexuals, it's hypocritical as well. Perhaps I am taking this personally, since I happen to carry about 70 extra pounds, but it isn't every day that I get to see my insecurities confirmed with such zeal. That isn't articulated the way I'd like for it to be, but attitudes such as yours really anger me. You'll lash out at what you consider to be an irrational attitude towards homosexuals, but think nothing of spewing such bile when it comes to a group that you are disgusted with.
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:49 PM   #68
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The difference is this Wildane

I am disgusted with the action not the people

She is disgusted with the people.
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Old 11-16-2006, 06:06 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ec
Well... I am not saying that I think there should be laws prohibitng public affection... but I am a full supporter of a business owner's policy against it
Of course.


Originally Posted by wildane
It's not possible that everyone is born "straight" and some are then turned gay?
By what force?


Originally Posted by wildane
Seems to blow a hole in the theory that they can't change, now doesn't it?
No mystery. Shes bi.


Originally Posted by wildane
No, they're just causing terror attacks.

/flee
I blame the teletubbies.


Originally Posted by wildane
If there is more than one option on the table, then yeah, it is a choice.
Even if there were 40 options, if it is automatic that means there is no choice. This could explain bi people.


Originally Posted by wildane
Do you really mean to say that we have no control over our own subconscious?
No, thats the whole point of 'sub'conscious. Damn, its like talking to a brick wall.


Originally Posted by wildane
As long as it isn't obscene, I don't think expressing affection, public or otherwise, should be stifled in the least bit.
No freedom to not be offended.


Originally Posted by ec
Well.. even if we assume that it is a total controllable choice (which I don't believe)... why is it that the religious right has no problem with people choosing to eat Big Macs and all sorts of other terribly unhealthy decisions that cause GREAT quantifiable harm to individuals and cost society as a whole, while they make such a commotion over this?
Because it isn't in their guidebook. Remember, they say there is only one set of morals. To make up your own is sacreligious.
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Heretic
By what force?
If I knew that, I'd know why some people are gay and why some aren't, dingleberry.
Originally Posted by Heretic
No mystery. Shes bi.
Well, her reason for splitting with Ellen DeGeneres was because she wasn't into women anymore. That's not bi.
Originally Posted by Heretic
Damn, its like talking to a brick wall.
Welcome to my world.
Originally Posted by Heretic
Because it isn't in their guidebook. Remember, they say there is only one set of morals. To make up your own is sacreligious.
More assumptions from Mr. Know-It-All. Do you never tire of being wrong?
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:11 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Yeah, and if you've ever condemned Axgar's feelings towards homosexuals, it's hypocritical as well. Perhaps I am taking this personally, since I happen to carry about 70 extra pounds, but it isn't every day that I get to see my insecurities confirmed with such zeal. That isn't articulated the way I'd like for it to be, but attitudes such as yours really anger me. You'll lash out at what you consider to be an irrational attitude towards homosexuals, but think nothing of spewing such bile when it comes to a group that you are disgusted with.
Nah... I am giving an example of an attitude that is jsut as arbitrary and rude as Ax's, but there's a difference... I would fight for people's rights to continue doing as they please! (I don't really hate people with weight problems, although I do get very angry when I see parent's pass those problems to thier children, or who are not active with thier children because they allow thier weight problem to be an interference).

Originally Posted by Axgar
I am disgusted with the action not the people

She is disgusted with the people.
Nope, I only pointed lout examples of ACTIONS that I didn't want to see... making out... eating, etc. My horrible example is spot on with yours... the only DIFFERENCE, dear Ax is that I will fight for thier right to eat whatever the hell they want. Just because someonething is unapplealing to me, or even when I can see some measureable harm (obesity health care related costs)... I believe the guiding principles of freedom in the country outweight my personal stupid hangups.

-As far as how I feel about the person... I decide what I think of the person when I meet them... you can't possibly beleive I could judge someone's entirel personality by looks lol... no, I was just giving examples a possible equally rude and arbitrary attitude tht I COULD have that would mirror the anti-gay attitude based on choice. Go back n read ><

-edit - I am sorry, Wild if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to do that... I meant to make fun of what I see as hypocritical fundies, not to make fun of you. ... but I do think the reason they do it, is because it's a small number of people and they can get away with bullying them. If they chose a more relevant issue, they know it would be unpopular, because it would regard so many more people... so they just pick the easy fight like a bunch of bullies.... you know like that GROUP of guys that tried to beat up that gay in New England, and one ended up getting his ass stabbed.
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:55 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Everclear
Yet, there you have some people who go on and on about how gross it is that two guys kiss, yet stuff thier (what I consider gross) large mouths with Whoppers or Big Macs and cheese fries. It's hialriously hypocritical and quite inconsistant from a social perspective.
because whoppers and cheese fries taste good, while gay mouths taste like... ?

sorry I missed this yesterday:
..:: Quoting celedine ::..
Just because the choice is automatic for me doesn't mean that a choice isn't being made.
..:: End Quote ::..
Originally Posted by Heretic
It should be obvious, but something 'automatic' isn't a choice.
Do you drive the same route to work every day? Do you take that route automatically while you're listening to music, talking on your cell phone, doing your makeup, whatever? Or do you carefully ponder and weigh each second whether your should brake, accelerate, adjust your steering .5 degrees to the left? Or does the choice become automatic after you've driven the same road to work for years? However, as you still have the option to take another route to get to work, you are still making a choice to go your usual route.
An automatic choice like this is a learned and conditioned behavior that is repeated out of habit. For those of us who are straight, rejection of homosexual advances falls into this area. This is my point, not to quibble over the definition of automatic (which is still correct in a colloquial use so nyah )
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:04 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Everclear
-As far as how I feel about the person... I decide what I think of the person when I meet them... you can't possibly beleive I could judge someone's entirel personality by looks lol... no, I was just giving examples a possible equally rude and arbitrary attitude tht I COULD have that would mirror the anti-gay attitude based on choice. Go back n read ><
Well, I did go back and read, and I don't see where it was implied that was anything other than your actual feelings. But, if you said it was just an example, then I have no hard feelings. You'd be surprised just how many people judge a book by its cover.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:35 AM   #74
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Oh no... because I LOEV food... I mean I LOVE food. My husband tells me when I get older I am going to end up like Paula Deen if I don't change my eating habits, and let me tell you... I have had waiters and watresses comment on how much I eat LOL. Appearences are superficial, and if I judged people based on thier looks, then I would deserve to miss out on the wonderful people that I would be overlooking... and they would deserve not to be bugged by such a superficial beeotch. My point is that yes, I do have a predisposition to think that overweight bodies are unattractive, but if we simply allow our petty arbitrary hangups to monopolize our perspectives, we lose sight of what really matters, and we end up hurting GOOD people. It's not a good practice, and to make social policy decisions on it can be downright devastating. Two exampels that imo parallel:

1. Passing some sort of legislation that demonizes or dismisses weight problems as "deviant"... would imo justify and foster animosity toward overweight people. I can't imagine how hard children who were overweight would be treated in school

2. Passing laws that demonize or characterize being gay as "deviant" same sitaution... fosters these mean attitudes toward good people.

I can understand if it is something like pedophilia... but we have to bear resposnsibility for the consequences of our actions, and while someone like Ax might say calling gays fags is one thing, but he isn't outright hostile to them... what about the example he sets for children. What about the so-called "civil" Christian families that create little monsters that end up ganging up on gay kids and trying to bash them? Oh, well they conveniently ignore the results of thier "attitudes" and just claim that an attitude of acceptance leads to the downfall of society.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:06 AM   #75
celedine169
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Originally Posted by Everclear
What about the so-called "civil" Christian families that create little monsters that end up ganging up on gay kids and trying to bash them?
They're rewarded with presents at xmas, sent to college to be lawyers and get appointed to the Justice department.
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