Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2012, 01:20 PM   #1
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Default Democrats: We didn't mean it, Israel!

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...jerusalem?lite
NBC News has learned that the Democratic Party will reinstate the language recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Republicans -- including the Romney campaign -- criticized President Obama and the Democrats after it was discovered this language had been omitted in the Democratic Party's platform
This will all be changed on the floor today, NBC has learned, and it will probably mean just simply reinstating the 2008 language.

Guess they thought they could sneak this one by... Well, it lets us know that they aren't friends to Israel. I wonder if the idiotic Jews who keep voting for them will ever wake up to their anti-Semitic tendencies?
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 03:33 PM   #2
SupportTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ottawa. AKA, SUCK CENTRAL!
Posts: 3,344
You missed the one the republicans managed to sneak by. and I consider it way more important that mentioning god and Israel.


Ill wait and see if you guys know what im talking about.
__________________
Everyone has The Right to MY opinion!
Everyone also has the right to be Stupid every now and then. Some people Don't know how Not to abuse that!

70 Warrior - Affliction

If someone tells you it's OK to lie. How do you know they aren't lying?
SupportTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 05:34 PM   #3
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...jerusalem?lite



Guess they thought they could sneak this one by... Well, it lets us know that they aren't friends to Israel. I wonder if the idiotic Jews who keep voting for them will ever wake up to their anti-Semitic tendencies?
So, if we're not blowing Israel, we're anti-Semitic? You're really just a "for them or against them" kinda guy, aren't you? Besides, who the hell ever worries about the Jew vote? They don't exactly have a lot of voting power.

Fun fact: there are more atheists in this country than Jews.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 06:00 PM   #4
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
So, if we're not blowing Israel, we're anti-Semitic? You're really just a "for them or against them" kinda guy, aren't you?
Either you recognize Israel's right to exist or you don't. So yeah, it is a pretty black-and-white question.
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 06:03 PM   #5
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
I'm sorry, Wild, but you do realize that recognizing that a country is legally there is a pretty cut and dried issue, no? Beal already stated this, but you can be a little stubborn, so I thought I'd chime in for emphasis.
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 06:03 PM   #6
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Originally Posted by SupportTank View Post
You missed the one the republicans managed to sneak by. and I consider it way more important that mentioning god and Israel.


Ill wait and see if you guys know what im talking about.
I didn't pay too much attention to the Repubs, honestly, so feel free to elucidate.
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 06:09 PM   #7
SupportTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ottawa. AKA, SUCK CENTRAL!
Posts: 3,344
the republicans managed to sneak by a rule change that instead of the states picking their delegates the party will appoint the delegates to the states.

In other words.


the party has taken away and choice you had on whos going to anointed for pres.


I personally see this as a move by the pubs to exclude any up and coming tea party people.
__________________
Everyone has The Right to MY opinion!
Everyone also has the right to be Stupid every now and then. Some people Don't know how Not to abuse that!

70 Warrior - Affliction

If someone tells you it's OK to lie. How do you know they aren't lying?
SupportTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 12:21 AM   #8
Aolynd
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 988
The "states" never picked delegates. It's a change from local chapters to national chapter making the choice.


YOU, as a citizen were never involved in the primary to begin with. We accept that the two parties which control every single aspect of our entire government are somehow still private organizations.
Aolynd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:40 AM   #9
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Beal View Post
Either you recognize Israel's right to exist or you don't. So yeah, it is a pretty black-and-white question.
Point is, Israel's sovereignty doesn't have anything to do with our democratic process. Why are we bending over backwards for a patch of dirt halfway around the world? I just don't get the logic that leads to us being anti-Jew for not making special privelege for Israel. It's not our goddamn business anyway.

I get that there is significance in recognizing the sovereignty of a nation, I just don't understand why it's so important that the parties put it into their platforms.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 05:43 AM   #10
Pinkheart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,913
I kinda feel like this was an intentional publicity stunt, so that "Obama could lead" the party back to inclusion.

I don't know if it was intended that the media would point it out before Obama did.... but it kind of wreaks of a publicity stunt.

Now they are claiming that Romney couldn't lead his party on platform issues where he disagreed, but look! Obama led his party and righted the "wrongs" that he felt needed to be changed.

Ehhh...seems kind of staged to me.

Clinton gave a damn good speech last night.... that will be a really tough act for Obama to follow. (I am not a big Clinton fan, I was very suprised at how good his speech was.)

Last edited by Pinkheart; 09-06-2012 at 06:02 AM.
Pinkheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 06:37 AM   #11
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Point is, Israel's sovereignty doesn't have anything to do with our democratic process.
A political party's platform is a highly detailed document covering every aspect of government policy. One of those aspects is foreign policy, and the party will take a stand on everything from stopping the spread of AIDS in Africa to preventing human trafficing in Southeast Asia. Policy toward Israel is not out of place.

Why are we bending over backwards for a patch of dirt halfway around the world?

I just don't get the logic that leads to us being anti-Jew for not making special privelege for Israel. It's not our goddamn business anyway.
Recognizing Israel's claim to sovereignty is bending over backwards? Remember that this isn't about the Democrats advocating a cut to foreign aid or any other change in ME policy. It costs us nothing to acknowledge Israel's existence and claim to sovereignty.

You do realize that a large portion of the Democrat Party does not recognize Israel, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v96Y8r2UPic
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 09:49 AM   #12
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Beal View Post
A political party's platform is a highly detailed document covering every aspect of government policy. One of those aspects is foreign policy, and the party will take a stand on everything from stopping the spread of AIDS in Africa to preventing human trafficing in Southeast Asia. Policy toward Israel is not out of place.



Recognizing Israel's claim to sovereignty is bending over backwards? Remember that this isn't about the Democrats advocating a cut to foreign aid or any other change in ME policy. It costs us nothing to acknowledge Israel's existence and claim to sovereignty.

You do realize that a large portion of the Democrat Party does not recognize Israel, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v96Y8r2UPic
No, making a huge deal to amend the platform with the same stance we've had on Israel for years is bending over backwards. Pushing those amendments through despite the amount of opposition it received is bending over backwards. And I get the feeling that if this were any other questionable country, it wouldn't receive near the outrage this has gotten. I just don't see what all the hubbub is about.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #13
Pinkheart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,913
Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
No, making a huge deal to amend the platform with the same stance we've had on Israel for years is bending over backwards. Pushing those amendments through despite the amount of opposition it received is bending over backwards. And I get the feeling that if this were any other questionable country, it wouldn't receive near the outrage this has gotten. I just don't see what all the hubbub is about.
Israel is a major ally as well as important to a large voting population. I have to say that I can see the reason for the hubbub, I just think it was manufactured intentionally. Maybe I am just jaded.

(Was there a lot of opposition? From what I heard, Obama said "do it", there were three comments made by people and it was done... I heard it was pretty fast and simple)
Pinkheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 11:01 AM   #14
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
The opposition came in the form of the floor vote. I didn't watch it personally, but from what I've read, the voted three times, and all three times the no's were louder than the yay's. I'd call more than half "a lot."
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #15
Beal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,265
Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
No, making a huge deal to amend the platform with the same stance we've had on Israel for years is bending over backwards. Pushing those amendments through despite the amount of opposition it received is bending over backwards.
You seem to be changing your point a little bit. (It really doesn't make sense to ask why "we" are bending over backward in reference to the Delegates to the Democratic National Convention unless you, Wildane, are a delegate to the Democratic National Convention.) But whatever.

As for the Democrats, sure, you could say they bent over backward, but they didn't do it for Israel. They did it because they realized too late that they were letting their party's loonies make a change to their platform that would be politically damaging. The point being: this issue is much more important to a much wider audience than I think you give it credit.

Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
And I get the feeling that if this were any other questionable country, it wouldn't receive near the outrage this has gotten. I just don't see what all the hubbub is about.
Is Israel a special case? Is that the real question? Well yes and no. But I would say that in general, all liberal, democratic nations are special cases. It's just that most of them aren't in the situation that Israel is in. Most of them are not under a constant threat of attack from their neighbors. But even in cases such as Taiwan and South Korea, they still don't face the find of threat the Israelis do. China wants to rule over Taiwan. North Korea wants to rule the entire peninsula. But neither one is dedicated to total and complete genocide of the opposing people. The nutcases in the Middle East want to wipe Israel off the map. They want every single Jew dead. They teach their children that Jews cook and eat Palestinian babies for dinner.

If Germany or Japan were under such a threat, you better believe its sovereignty would be a more important issue for Americans.

There is one more reason that it was so important for the Democrats to "fix" their platform so quickly: the opposition you saw in that vote. If it wants to remain mainstream, a political party has to keep its fringe in check. There is no meaningful group of Democrats (or Republicans) that wants to see Kim Jong-un ruling over the Korean Peninsula, so if the Democrats don't bother mentioning that the US should support South Korea's sovereignty, no one really cares.
Beal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 02:53 PM   #16
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Beal View Post
You seem to be changing your point a little bit. (It really doesn't make sense to ask why "we" are bending over backward in reference to the Delegates to the Democratic National Convention unless you, Wildane, are a delegate to the Democratic National Convention.) But whatever.
No, I meant "we" as a nation.
Originally Posted by Beal
The point being: this issue is much more important to a much wider audience than I think you give it credit.
No, I know they have a lot of support. I just don't know why.
Originally Posted by Beal
If Germany or Japan were under such a threat, you better believe its sovereignty would be a more important issue for Americans.
Well yeah, we all like our Acuras and our Mercedes.

Of course, to me, Israel is based on a bunch of baloney. Two peoples believe they own a city because their imaginary friend bequeathed it to them. If it weren't for humane reasons, we should even be involved in that shit.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #17
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
Israel is a major ally as well as important to a large voting population. I have to say that I can see the reason for the hubbub, I just think it was manufactured intentionally. Maybe I am just jaded.
If it was, it was mishandled worse than the Lewinsky affair...
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 05:18 PM   #18
Aolynd
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 988
video of the vote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST-eE4Ud7nw

Not sure why they didn't just change it. This is kind of a fumble having the vote like that.

I don't think it will really hurt Obama or the party though. Kinda makes Villaraigosa look like a bit of a wuss, but he's not in any danger of losing his job in LA.
Aolynd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:33 AM   #19
Pinkheart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,913
Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
If it was, it was mishandled worse than the Lewinsky affair...
Considering no one cares about Lewisnky anymore, and Clinton is pretty popular, that doesn't really mean much.

It was mishandled, though. If it was intentional, I think it was a dumb move and hurt more than helped. If it was unententional, then it was devious and expository of some underlying issues.

Obama, at least, seems to value the Israeli alliance. If nothing else, I am glad those fringe party members were silenced/overriden. It's too bad the right can't do the same with it's extremists. Both parties have whackjobs. I don't know that anyone would dispute that.

What's important is that they can be contained, and the party can remain somewhat coherent. That has been the Republican problem. It was the Democrat problem under Bush.
Pinkheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 11:42 AM   #20
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Allen West is already running with it too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNQuT...ature=youtu.be
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #21
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
I am glad those fringe party members were silenced/overriden. It's too bad the right can't do the same with it's extremists. Both parties have whackjobs. I don't know that anyone would dispute that.

What's important is that they can be contained, and the party can remain somewhat coherent. That has been the Republican problem. It was the Democrat problem under Bush.
Yeah, who cares about due process, as long as those "whack jobs" get put down, eh?

Again, you have no respect for the rule of law. You'd do better under a tyranny. At least you would until the tyrant stopped doing what YOU wanted him or her to do. Then you'd be the whiniest bitch in the kennel.
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 09:18 AM   #22
Pinkheart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,913
Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
Yeah, who cares about due process, as long as those "whack jobs" get put down, eh?

Again, you have no respect for the rule of law. You'd do better under a tyranny. At least you would until the tyrant stopped doing what YOU wanted him or her to do. Then you'd be the whiniest bitch in the kennel.
I am not sure what the hell you are talking about regarding "due process" in a partisan platform discussion. There was a vote, it passed.

WTH are you ranting about? This wasn't a court case or legal issue, it's the workings of a voluntary political association, and they did follow normal procedure to make the change.

No respect for the rule of law? Because a voluntary organization overrode its fringe whackos? Are you high?? I really can't tell, because either you are complaining about the fringe whackos in the group, or you are crying "due process" when the party contains them and corrects a problem.... is there anything you won't complain about? Did they violate bylaws or something? Is that why you are saying there was not "due process" or respect for "rule of law"?

Last edited by Pinkheart; 09-08-2012 at 09:26 AM.
Pinkheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 09:52 AM   #23
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
I am not sure what the hell you are talking about regarding "due process" in a partisan platform discussion. There was a vote, it passed.
It passed despite the actual voting results.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:01 PM   #24
Pinkheart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,913
Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
It passed despite the actual voting results.
Oh, I saw that... yeah that was crazy. It's unfortunate, and I wonder if it can be challenged.

Since they only took a subjective vote, I wonder if the bylaws allow the chair to do that... and then maybe there is a process it can be appealed, but wasn't.

As far as "due process" and law.... the dynamics of a voluntary organization are not the same as a court of law.

It would all depend on the bylaws of the organization. I have certainly seen (many times) executive committees make such decisions without a general vote on particular organizational matters. So, without knowing the applicable rules, I am not sure why this played out how it did or consequential alternative route for dissenters.

Same for the RNC, that was the same scenario.

Strange that both parties had such a contentious floor vote this year. Again, even though the Republicans clearly did the same thing, I don't think the "due process" argument applies. It's all about their bylaws...and even though I don't care for the Republican change... again, it's their organization to change...so just another reason why the two party system sucks, I guess.

Last edited by Pinkheart; 09-08-2012 at 12:11 PM.
Pinkheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #25
Drysdale
RSS Feed
 
Drysdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,628
Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
I am not sure what the hell you are talking about regarding "due process" in a partisan platform discussion. There was a vote, it passed.

WTH are you ranting about? This wasn't a court case or legal issue, it's the workings of a voluntary political association, and they did follow normal procedure to make the change.

No respect for the rule of law? Because a voluntary organization overrode its fringe whackos? Are you high?? I really can't tell, because either you are complaining about the fringe whackos in the group, or you are crying "due process" when the party contains them and corrects a problem.... is there anything you won't complain about? Did they violate bylaws or something? Is that why you are saying there was not "due process" or respect for "rule of law"?
You continuously spurn the Rule of Law. At every turn. And those "whackos" were elected delegates. You don't give a shit though. You just pop up and dismiss them. Guess what, Pinky, those aren't just fringe whackos, they're elected delegates. Their the core constituency of the DNC.

Oh, and as usual, since they didn't get their way, the leaders just plowed on ahead and ignored the rules. (And yes, the bylaws state that a 2/3 majority was needed to put that wording back in. How nice of you to finally get that through your dim bulb of a brain)
__________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"Thou shalt not steal. Except by majority vote." - Gary North
Drysdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.