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Old 12-18-2004, 12:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Heretic
In some extreme cases I can see it justified. If someone is leading a high speed police chase, if the opportunity arises, I think the police should open fire.
But that doesn't at all appear to have been the case in this instance. It hardly sounds like this was a truly innocent person getting wacked by an overzealous cop, but he also wasn't swinging a machete at a group of kindergarten students.

I do believe in deadly force in some cases, but this doesn't remotely seem like one of those based on the limited info we have.
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Old 12-18-2004, 04:41 PM   #27
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Im not advocating the use of deadly force except for in the most extreme of situations, the sort of situations that nobody ever wants to be in, but you guys are blaming the wrong person for this death. Why is the cop responsible for this man dying? The taser did not kill him most likely, the overdosing on drugs which will severely weaken your heart/nervous system did. People behaving erradically and on drugs are way too unpredictable and dangerous to give any slack to cause they almost always have a knife on them and no inhibition against using it. Horm, if you feel so strongly that the police should try and calm him down and place him behind bars with love and happiness, try being a cop sometime.
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Old 12-18-2004, 07:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Article
Police said Downing continued to behave erratically and was belligerent toward officers. Because of his size -- 6 feet 3 inches tall, 280 pounds -- a female officer used a Taser gun to try to subdue Downing to get him into handcuffs.
Depending on their definitions of "behaving erratically" and "beligerant"...

If the taser was deemed safe by the manufacturer and regulating agencies, and the taser was deemed safe enough for the department to purchase, and she was within department (and safety) guidelines for using it, I don't see a whole lot of liability for the individual officer.

Sure, she may be named in the lawsuit, but the brunt of the responsibility will fall on the manufacturer for making it, the regulatory agency for certifying it as safe, and the department for adopting it for use on the streets.

Being that many major departments have very specific use of force guidelines, I'm just hoping she was within those boundaries and not just overzealous, or didn't jump the gun because she was scared. If the manufacturer said, "Use it like this." and the deparment said, "Use it like this, only when THIS situation is in play." and she was outside of either of those guidelines, she might be in deep doo-doo.

As for whether or not someone deserves death for stupidity, nah. If we killed all the stupid people just to prevent the stupid things they might do in the future, we'd whittle the population down by thousands or millions of people. However, in a direct confrontation situation between a suspect and an officer, the officer's got a right to protect themselves. If Joe Criminal can't behave after being verbally warned, and things escalate up the use of force chain and he continues to endanger the officer's safety, then well, he's gotta take some responsibility for the outcome.
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Old 12-18-2004, 07:27 PM   #29
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Brigi: you cant put the blame on the manufacturer.. not even 5% of the blame. It would be like sueing a automobile manufacture because ya know.. the car was capable of swerving into uncoming traffic. It is the departments sole responsibility to know, understand, and use any such devices, whatever they may be, in the safest yet most productive way. The department knows exactly what the tasers do to a person. It is all on them to know what 5 billion gigawatts can do to a child / old lady / 6'-3" man.
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Old 12-18-2004, 10:19 PM   #30
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Non lethal means are occassionally lethal, universal accepted fact. Twinkies are occassionally fatal also, and occassionally someone gets hit by a meteor. Blank rounds have killed more than one person before, death is a very real and continuing possiblity of human existance. Now seperating freak accidents from intentional neglegence is where the line is. This falls under freak accident if tasers kill one person every few years.
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Old 12-19-2004, 07:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by korast
Why is the cop responsible for this man dying?
Because she tasered him, which according to the story, caused his death. If the taser triggered his death then she is responsible, no matter how much coke he did. Now, that being said, that doesn't necessarily means she was at fault, if you understand the difference I'm drawing. I'm still unsure how belligerent this guy was to know whether a taser was necessary. The fact that the story doesn't explicitly refer to his attacking the cops makes me lean toward the cop being somewhat in the wrong here, but we don't really know. I certainly don't think she intended to kill the guy with the taser, but it did seem to be an inappropriate use of a weapon based on the facts at hand.

Horm, if you feel so strongly that the police should try and calm him down and place him behind bars with love and happiness, try being a cop sometime.
Love and happiness doesn't enter into it, appropriate use of force does. There are good reasons I'm not a cop (which, though you might not believe it, is a profession I hold in great respect despite my criticism of certain members of that profession). I would be exactly the kind of cop I dislike- I don't think I'd have the patience or physical restraint needed and would be far too likely to crack heads when it wasn't necessary or appropriate. I hold cops to a higher standard much as I hold brain surgeons and baseball players responsible for performing their jobs at high levels despite my not being able to do either better than they. Sorry it ruins your "walk a mile in her shoes before knocking it" cliche, but we all do this, and I see no problem with it. Cops are responsible to the public- welcome to public servitude- just because I'm not a cop doesn't mean I have no basis or justification for criticism.
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Old 12-19-2004, 08:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
I do believe in deadly force in some cases, but this doesn't remotely seem like one of those based on the limited info we have.
I agree. From the information we have it doesn't seem justified. Of course I wasn't there.
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Old 12-19-2004, 09:41 AM   #33
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How is a chik supposed to manhandle a 6'3" dude again, musta missed it?
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Old 12-20-2004, 11:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
The fact that the story doesn't explicitly refer to his attacking the cops makes me lean toward the cop being somewhat in the wrong here, but we don't really know. I certainly don't think she intended to kill the guy with the taser, but it did seem to be an inappropriate use of a weapon based on the facts at hand.
Officers don't have to be physically assaulted to use force. They tell you to do something, you do it. You can always bring legal charges against them later.

The officer should have maced him first. Atleast I would. Then I'd resort to my RKSF (Rodney King Specialty Flashlight)." ... Hey I never said I was better than her!
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Old 12-20-2004, 12:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Misty
How is a chik supposed to manhandle a 6'3" dude again, musta missed it?
You miss a lot Mushmouth.
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Old 12-20-2004, 06:17 PM   #36
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Not enough info to really make a judgement. That said I am pretty sure Tasers are classified as less than lethal weapons meaning, they are low risk for a lethal result.


Most Police Depts have what mine calls a Force Continum: It is basically a set of rules dictating the amount of allowed force to be used depending on the Subject's Resistance level. Although my Dept does not use taser's I am pretty certain they would be classified as an Intermediate Hard Weapon, translation: equal to our use of a Baton. It is to note that we also have variables affecting the Force Continum and the first listed is "Size and gender of officer and subject." There are officers on this dept that could justify shooting someone I could not justify the same simply based on size and gender.


If you would like me to List this continum let me know, no time to do it now though.
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Old 12-20-2004, 07:43 PM   #37
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I follow what Lith is saying here it's so totally the point.

Subject has to ably recognise that a woman officer has the same obligation to perform a police duty (using force if required) as any non-present male officer capable of manhandling the 6'3" subject. Failing to allow one's self any notice that the police uniform is worn by a chick is treading on lunacy - non compas mentis.

Where a cop is concerned, observe that in the next marque in the patrol officer's job description (under duty requirements generally) there is not a city paid dinner date for two listed among rules about appropriate use of force.

It is 'empowered' to law enforcement that use of force may accompany the authority applied in its task as appropriate. Does this 6'3" dude realise what's next? It is his own risk, not his call if he does not recognise physical boundaries or their social limits in a confrontation between a man and a woman. It is his misadventure whether or not under a substance influence or endangering medical condition (information that was not made relevant during arrest).

Last edited by Misty; 12-20-2004 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Lith Ahntalon
If you would like me to List this continum let me know, no time to do it now though.

I'd be interested to see the continuum you have to work with, but it can certainly wait until after the holidays.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:07 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Misty
non compas mentis.

Are you running your posts through that old Misty distorter again? Anyway, it's No Compost Mentos, that is, no shitty candies.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:52 PM   #40
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You haven't got a whole lot over any lab insect for street value, Gauche.
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Old 12-20-2004, 09:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Misty
You haven't got a whole lot over any lab insect for street value, Gauche.

Thanks, because I'm not interested in being sold on the street. <place your unwitty insult retort here>
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:11 AM   #42
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Here it is for those interested. I will t note that I will give brief explanations to some of the listed items to clarify. First listed will be officer level of force and second listed will be subject's actions:

1) Officer Presence- The presence of an officer is considered a level of force.

Psycological Intimidation- Dress, mannerisms, etc. of the subject

2) Verbal Direction- Self explanitory

Verbal Noncompliance- Subject refusing verbal direction

3) Empty hand control
a) Soft- Basically hands on an attemting to control via use of muscleing techniques.
b) Hard- Strikes with fist, foot, etc.

Passive resistance- Subject actively attemting to resist or escape.

4) Intermediate Weapons
a) Soft- Chemical weapons such as OC, Mace, etc.
b) Hard- Weapons such a a Baton, etc.

Defensive Resistance- Subject is actively fighting the officer and attemting to harm him for example, suject is kicking or hitting the officer without a weapon.

5) Lethal Force- Generally refers to use of sidearm but, can also include things like a strike to the head with a Baton or any use of force an officer brings to bear on the subject with a potential lethal result.

Active Aggresion and Aggrivated Active Agression- The suject has the means, ability and opprotunity to cause serious or lethal harm to the officer.



Variables affecting this are as follows:

1) Size and Gender of officer and subject.

2) Totality of circumstances
a) Danger to others/officer
b) Environmental Conditions (day/night, urban/rural, etc.)

3) Reaction time.

That is pretty much the basics of it and sonething along those lines is fairly standard around the country.



I would like to make one more note on the metioned incident. If you have never fought with someone under the influence of a controlled substance particularly ones such as PCP, it is an entirely different animal ( no pun intended). They don't feel pain like you and I and pain compliance techniques and "weapons" such as pressure points and OC are fairly useless. These subjects are very strong and the only real way to handle them is to use some sort of balance displacement or mucsle them to the ground and throw as much wieght on them as you can to keep them from getting up. while they are down use leg and hand restaints. I am not small 6'2" and 240 pounds, athletic and a very good grappler ( State ranked wrestler at one point) and quite frankly someone much smaller than myself hopped up on PCP is gonna require more than myself to gain and maintain control. Mentally ill persons can be much the same to lesser degree.
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:48 AM   #43
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I may simply not know enough about it, but I'm inclined to prefer liberal (<rimshot>) use of a baton over a taser. Perhaps that's completely naive, but I feel the officer has more control over end results using a baton.
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:07 AM   #44
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Well, if someone is feeling no pain, then a taser is going to have much more effect than a baton; at least it will affect muscle control.

I didn't post this article because I think the officer went over the line or anything. This was mostly because of our discussion about 6-year-old that got tasered a few weeks ago, and some folks didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with it, or that it wouldn't harm him long-term. Well, here's evidence to the contrary. Still think shocking a 6-year-old is a good first step?
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:16 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Still think shocking a 6-year-old is a good first step?
I think Horm was saying he would have used the Baton on the kid.
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Koss
I think Horm was saying he would have used the Baton on the kid.
I don't think Wildane was pointing that at me. That being said, if the kid was you, sure, I'd give the officer free reign, Abner Louima style.
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
I don't think Wildane was pointing that at me. That being said, if the kid was you, sure, I'd give the officer free reign, Abner Louima style.
Sweet, Horm wants rights based on each individual now! weeeee!

Hey I have to admit, I get more rooted to support pro-choice movements everytime I read one of Horms posts. No...I take that back.. the government should take it upon themselves to prevent some people from breeding.
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Koss
Sweet, Horm wants rights based on each individual now! weeeee!

Hey I have to admit, I get more rooted to support pro-choice movements everytime I read one of Horms posts. No...I take that back.. the government should take it upon themselves to prevent some people from breeding.
Too late prag, I've already spread my manjuice, how do you think you came into the world?
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Too late prag, I've already spread my manjuice, how do you think you came into the world?
My response was for your mom. She's proof some people make the wrong choice.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Koss
She's proof some people make the wrong choice.
I'd say the same about you. Then again, it's never too late. Hold still while I get a wire hanger, kkthx.
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