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Old 08-06-2008, 08:54 AM   #26
Drysdale
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A Bullet through the head is quick, relatively painless (Because of how quick) and fairly cheap. Use a large calibur hollow point pistol round and have a closed-casket funeral.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:02 AM   #27
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Without actually KILLING people as a test, it is difficult to know what will and won't be painless ... we could wrap them in C4 and blow them to smithereens before the nerve endings would have a chance to send pain signals to the brain ... we could vaporize them (fricking sea bass with laser beams, perhaps,) ... we could freeze them slowly to death (which apparently IS relatively painless if done properly, based on people who have been trapped in the wilderness and almost succumbed.

Things like the guillotine and the bullet to the head are also thought to be "painless," but who could actually know, and are apparently too barbaric for our modern society.

I think the question remains, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being DEATH, does getting a paper cut in the process mean we should stop (might be a 2 on the scale.) Or getting your thumb smashed with a hammer (a 4 ? or 5?) Sentences like the above are what make this argument so stupid. As long as there is no intentional infliction of pain, and other ways of execution are MORE painful, well, guess what? Dying is most likely going to be painful!

OH ... and another thing ... how EMOTIONALLY painful is it for the days leading u to the execution - am I going to get a stay ? Will they commute my sentence? Talk about torture!!! My guess (opinion) is that this is MUCH worse than the 5-10 minutes of pain they feel from lethal injection ... so, once it is decided up, shouldn't we just execute them IMMEDIATELY??

Or, maybe we should agree that as long as people are going to be executed, the citizenry should try to ensure reasonably humane methods, and just get over it.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:10 AM   #28
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Can't believe I missed an entire post, especially one this big.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Bleeding heart? Get a grip son.
If this shoe fits...
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
If we want to be the height of civilization, as I think we do, we need to treat even the worst of the worst with some dignity, even at their end.
I disagree. I believe your actions earn you your reputation. Just like good deeds earn you respect, vile deeds earn you disdain. My treatment of you is very much dependent on your actions and treatment of me. If someone cuts me off in traffic, I'm not going to say "That's OK" and wish them a nice day, I'm going to flip them off. I do believe in the Golden Rule until your actions dictate otherwise. I will treat you with courtesy and respect, but if you blow up a school bus full of kids, fuck you.

Treating the worst of the worst with dignity is all about one thing and one thing only: making yourself feel better. If you cared so much about the guy, you wouldn't want to kill him.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:10 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot View Post
That's the Christian in you coming out. Fuck, why not just feed them to the lions like the Romans did.
Im all for that but in the mean time I hope to hell its your sister or niece getting raped and not mine.... then you can forgive the fucker Im not going to utill he is dead.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:12 AM   #30
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fricking sea bass with laser beams, perhaps
Only if they're ill-tempered!
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:44 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
If this shoe fits...
So because I think executions, if they're going to take place at all, should be as humane as reasonably possible I'm a bleeding heart? You do realize what an assinine leap that is right? I felt bad when I hit a squirrel earlier this year- does that make me a lab-torching ELF advocate? You're making Bumbles look evenhanded here...

I disagree. I believe your actions earn you your reputation. Just like good deeds earn you respect, vile deeds earn you disdain. My treatment of you is very much dependent on your actions and treatment of me. If someone cuts me off in traffic, I'm not going to say "That's OK" and wish them a nice day, I'm going to flip them off. I do believe in the Golden Rule until your actions dictate otherwise. I will treat you with courtesy and respect, but if you blow up a school bus full of kids, fuck you.

Treating the worst of the worst with dignity is all about one thing and one thing only: making yourself feel better. If you cared so much about the guy, you wouldn't want to kill him.
Looking upon the worst criminals with disdain is one thing, institutionalizing unnecessarily painful executions is completely different. And again, the pain thing was the claim of a condemned man's lawyer, he might be full of shit. But if he's not, then we should seek a better method. This isn't exactly far leftist treehugging here- again, get a grip.

As to treating the condemned with dignity, it's not because I care so much about the guy, it's because I care so much about our society. I'd rather we not slide into a moral position where we're no better than China or North Korea. That you're so willing to stoop to that level is your problem, not mine.
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:26 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
So because I think executions, if they're going to take place at all, should be as humane as reasonably possible I'm a bleeding heart?
Not only does it make you a bleeding heart, it makes you irrational. You harp more on the pain aspect of an execution than the fact that it's killing the guy. I mean, it's not like you're the only person with an "as long as they're going to do it anyway" attitude, but that's kind of like saying "as long as you're going to rape your sister anyway, you might as well use a rubber." And then there's another you who's up in arms about a guy because he didn't use contraception.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
I felt bad when I hit a squirrel earlier this year- does that make me a lab-torching ELF advocate?
Yeah, because that is a COMPLETELY parallel analogy.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
This isn't exactly far leftist treehugging here
Yeah, it really is.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
As to treating the condemned with dignity, it's not because I care so much about the guy, it's because I care so much about our society.
Well, I just don't see how unintentionally causing a guy a fraction of the pain he's caused others is particularly damning to society.
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:15 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Not only does it make you a bleeding heart, it makes you irrational. You harp more on the pain aspect of an execution than the fact that it's killing the guy. I mean, it's not like you're the only person with an "as long as they're going to do it anyway" attitude, but that's kind of like saying "as long as you're going to rape your sister anyway, you might as well use a rubber." And then there's another you who's up in arms about a guy because he didn't use contraception.
So then by your obtuse brand of logic, you have no concern at all about the amount of pain and as long as we're killing him anyway, we might as well make it hurt. See, I can play this absurd little game too!

Yeah, because that is a COMPLETELY parallel analogy.
Actually it is- you've taken my opinion that executions should be as humane as reasonably possible and equated it to me being a bleeding heart. Why not then take my moment of empathy for a rodent to paint me as a radical environmentalist? Same stupid notion. Following? Probably not...

Yeah, it really is.
No, it really isn't. Not even a little. Good try though, you almost had me convinced.

Well, I just don't see how unintentionally causing a guy a fraction of the pain he's caused others is particularly damning to society.
But if we know up front that it is excrutiatingly painful (and again, I don't- but if his lawyer is right...), it's not so unintentional is it? And again, I'd hope we'd hold ourselves above the standard of a convicted rapist/murderer. Maybe you'd like to set the bar lower. Would hardly be surprising.
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:47 AM   #34
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I sincerely believe that Horm raises very valid points, and those succinctly put by Brig.

I am a death penalty advocate, not because I take pleasure in the idea of death for those to murder but in the sense of ultimate responsibility; it is as old as the code of Hammurabi, equitable justice suits the crime. If you murder someone, you have deprived that person of the life he/she is entitled to, thus your life is forfeit.

But to Horm's point: what does it say about us as a society by taking pleasure in the death of another, even such a monster as the one referred to in this post? We, as a society and representative government, hold the ultimate power over anyone convicted of such a heinous crime. The criminal was convicted because of the barbaric act; do we as a society mete out justice in the same way the convicted criminal would? What is our justification for doing so? We need not coddle these people, but do we need to torture them? What makes that right, because we have the moral highground? We believe it is God's just retribution? Does that really make it different?

Look, at the end of the day, I want to see justice done. I want the responsible person convicted and, if the jury sees fit, put to death. But I have to remember that the person that will be lying on the gurney waiting for the needle is a human; holding him accountable by taking his life is enough. I don't feel it is moral or just to inflict additional pain for the sake of vengeance or our personal need for bloodlust. I want to believe I'm better than that. I want to believe that our society is better than that.

I don't think this is a left/right issue, I think this is a human issue. You all know me here, I am no wilting flower. I want justice, but I also want to sleep at night.
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:59 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
So then by your obtuse brand of logic, you have no concern at all about the amount of pain and as long as we're killing him anyway, we might as well make it hurt. See, I can play this absurd little game too!
Yeah, you just aren't very good at it. I notice you didn't contradict any of it.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Actually it is- you've taken my opinion that executions should be as humane as reasonably possible and equated it to me being a bleeding heart.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not that big a stretch.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Same stupid notion.
Same notion perhaps, HUGE difference in scale.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
No, it really isn't. Not even a little. Good try though, you almost had me convinced.
Yeah, I'm convinced, too. It isn't because you say it isn't. I'm sold!
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
but if his lawyer is right...
Well, I'm pretty sure the lawyer's never gone through the lethal injection process...
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
And again, I'd hope we'd hold ourselves above the standard of a convicted rapist/murderer.
We are; we're killing him for a reason.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Would hardly be surprising.
Much like your pretentious attitude, fancy boy.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:08 PM   #36
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You're failing badly here Wildane. You continue to make ridiculous claims about me being a bleeding heart without substantiating them. You continue to completely miss the point that I've been saying all of this with the caveat that I'm assuming for the sake of argument the lawyer isn't full of shit about the pain issue. Do you even realize how much of a yahoo you sound like when you try to take someone to task for wanting our executions to be carried out humanely? This is Axgar country you're hiking in. GG.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:12 PM   #37
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im a FIRM believer of eye for a eye tooth for a tooth justice

raped a murdered 2 girls?

Fine the sentence should be have the fucker trussed up and raped by a machine nice and long. then strangled to death. revived since he did it twice. and raped and strangled to death again.

and the Families get to operate the machine.

you think im harsh? so what?

punishments are nowhere near harsh enough. they fail to serve their purpose as deterrent, if people are not afraid of them.

and thats really the sad story of humanity as a whole. if they arn't afraid of doing it. chances are they will.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:16 PM   #38
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If there's any topic in the world worth being a 'bleeding heart' over, it's the topic of taking a life. That's a decision that should never ever be taken lightly, IMO. I worry more for those that aren't.
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:04 PM   #39
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I agree it should not be taken lightly, and used as a deterrent to others is almost a joke to me. You can't make people care if they don't want to. Me personally, I think they should get due process, but expedient as well. Taking as long as they do to execute someone just adds to the cost, and the burden on everyone involved, victims family and family to the offender as well. I wouldn't want the executions made public, I would not want my kids exposed to what is normal practice in other countries.

off topic just an fyi:

Oh our offender got out this last March, and has failed to register as a sex offender.....and they refuse to enforce it even though he is on parole until this November, they being the state of Oregon where he resides.
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:27 PM   #40
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You bleeding hearts still entertain me. Shoot, you would probably shake Usama Bin Laden's hand.

Whoever said inflicting pain was bad? Civilized Society?!?! Please?!?!? Civilized Society is one where you get RID of the BAD GUYS! Wow, what a concept. You don't give them free 'room and board', you get RID of them.

You get a guy who has committed rape, have him serve 6 months, let him go and he rapes and murders the next time. Is that civilized? Or you take a person who raped and you execute him and society is rid of the scourge. Is that civilized? DAMN RIGHT! Capital Punishment does WORK because that person will NEVER commit another crime!

Liberals: Kill a baby and coddle a murderer! and that is civilized?

I know I won't change your minds because you are so open minded your brains fell out years ago.

By the way, either way, the US is in dire straights the next 4 years!
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:38 PM   #41
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Actually in a civilized society there would be no crime therefore no capital punishment.

I win.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:10 PM   #42
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Unless he wants public and TELEVISED executions he isn't in my territory Horm, fuck rapists fuck murderers.

YOU sir sit here and try make murderers and rapists equals to Wild and myself well I have news for you THEY DONT DESERVE ANYTHING BUT PAIN, fuck them.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
You continue to make ridiculous claims about me being a bleeding heart without substantiating them.
Why should I? You're doing that for me.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
You continue to completely miss the point that I've been saying all of this with the caveat that I'm assuming for the sake of argument the lawyer isn't full of shit about the pain issue.
He's a lawyer, ergo full of shit. And I get your point completely, I just disagree with it. We will never become the civilized society that you envision, because it is too idealistic. In your civilized society, the fucking criminals have more advocates than the victims. In your civilized society, an action doesn't always have an opposite and equal reaction. In your civilized society, you coddle those who have done everything they possibly could to be antisocial. In your civilized society, you can't tell the difference between those that feel the scumbags might deserve a little pain and those who enjoy seeing pain in others.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Do you even realize how much of a yahoo you sound like when you try to take someone to task for wanting our executions to be carried out humanely?
And do you realize how inane it is to believe there is a humane way to end someone's life? Grow up.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
This is Axgar country you're hiking in.
This, coming from bumbler jr.
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:47 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Axgar View Post
I hope to hell its your sister or niece getting raped and not mine....
Here we go again....
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:11 AM   #45
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I don't know why we ever did away with the guillotine, but I can't fathom any better and faster way to put someone to death.

I mean seriously, we've been executing people (as a human race) for centuries, and the best we can come up with is a fucking needle full of drugs?

I'm a pretty big fan of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality, and "why reinvent the wheel" ... so imo the guillotine is due for a comeback.

As for this fat guy, chances are he will prolong his case for another five years and eventually be put to death in some other manner, costing taxpayers a few more million in legal bullshit.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by furo
As for this fat guy, chances are he will prolong his case for another five years and eventually be put to death in some other manner, costing taxpayers a few more million in legal bullshit.
Well, you wouldn't want him to feel a minute of pain, would you??? In a civilized society, we should be willing to bear the overwhelming tax burden so this murdering rapist can be fucking comfortable right before he dies!
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Davek View Post
Here we go again....
Thats right here we go again , Axgar wanting his family safe and the bleeding heart libbies wanting the real crimminals to feel good about themselves before they die.... fuck you dude make me out to be the bad guy here but I guaranmotherfuckingtee you that if anything like this happens in my family im gonna lock and load and take out any motherfucker I can by myself if i have to...... it's that simple.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:44 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Axgar View Post
Thats right here we go again , Axgar wanting his family safe and the bleeding heart libbies wanting the real crimminals to feel good about themselves before they die.... fuck you dude make me out to be the bad guy here but I guaranmotherfuckingtee you that if anything like this happens in my family im gonna lock and load and take out any motherfucker I can by myself if i have to...... it's that simple.
Right...except in the process you wish it on other people's families.

I'll just leave it at that since you've already gone through this *I lost count* many times with Brigiid.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Why should I? You're doing that for me.
Again, no I'm not. Is Pafuna a bleeding heart now too btw, because he posted a while back supporting my position. Or are you conveniently ignoring that fact? I'm not arguing that murderers should get 30 days house arrest instead of prison or that since many sex offenders were abused themselves we should simply enroll them in a one week treatment program- that would be bleeding heart, I agree. I'm saying that where possible we should minimize the amount of pain our executions cause.

He's a lawyer, ergo full of shit.
I'm hardly a fan of lawyers in general, but how ad hominem can you get?

And I get your point completely, I just disagree with it. We will never become the civilized society that you envision, because it is too idealistic. In your civilized society, the fucking criminals have more advocates than the victims. In your civilized society, an action doesn't always have an opposite and equal reaction. In your civilized society, you coddle those who have done everything they possibly could to be antisocial. In your civilized society, you can't tell the difference between those that feel the scumbags might deserve a little pain and those who enjoy seeing pain in others.
To your last point there, I think you've blurred the line considerably in this discussion. Your unhealthy sense of vengeance is simply oozing from every word you type here. Does someone who rapes and murders deserve pain? Yes. But that's simply not what our justice and prison systems are built to do. We're not an eye-for-an-eye society and I think we're better for it.

And do you realize how inane it is to believe there is a humane way to end someone's life? Grow up.
Not inane at all. Humane is an injection that quickly ends someones life with minimal pain. Inhumane is stabbing them on a bus, beheading them, and eating parts of their body. Humane (IMO) would be a bullet to the head. Inhumane would be drawing and quartering. Do you follow yet? Because if you can't see that there are indeed differences in methods of execution, you're even dimmer than advertised.

This, coming from bumbler jr.
In what respect? Again, you're desperately reaching in this thread. What's fascinating to me though is how angry you are that people would dare get in the way of you and your pain lust. I'm not asking for a drug cocktail that makes the condemned feel like a pretty pretty princess until they expire, I'm asking that we minimize pain in a reasonable fashion. Take a breath.

Originally Posted by furo
I don't know why we ever did away with the guillotine, but I can't fathom any better and faster way to put someone to death.
By all accounts, it's about as quick and painless as it gets, but given the dismemberment issue, I don't see it being brought back. The same reason why a bullet to the head won't ever be widely used here- it's messy, even if it is probably a far easier way to go than lethal injection.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:23 AM   #50
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/blows bullshit whistle

Whoa whoa whoa whoa...

/flag on the field


What is with the pile on here?

How can we even compare Horm to bumbles? His arguments make sense; even if you most vociferously disagree with him, there is logic there. You can at least REASON with Horm.


I'm shocked and appalled at such treatment. No one should bear that comparison.

__________________
Originally Posted by Ini View Post
Holy shit I think Pafuna just won the intraweb!
Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
Damn, is Pafuna allowed to win the intrawebs twice, or is it a lifetime achievement thing?
Pafuna is offline   Reply With Quote
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