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Old 03-03-2004, 11:40 AM   #51
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Yeah..it is..right next to the page that says "Love American Liberals, for they are your friends in battle and greatest ally in bringing down America".
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Old 03-03-2004, 11:48 AM   #52
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I see Trith, it is OK for God to slaughter millions of people for the purpose to persuade the remaining unbelievers to accept Christ? That isn't classic terrorism?
You would compare and act of God to an act of man? And you're calling someone else retarded? Apples and orangutans.

Your argument of following the Bible to the letter as far as punishment is concerned is ludicrous. I know, let's follow an even older set of laws, the Code of Hammurabi! Accuse someone of a crime without any actual proof? DIE! Buy something from the son of a man with an informal contract? DIE! Do you honestly believe that God wouldn't allow things to change with the times? You're arguments are getting weaker and weaker.
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Old 03-03-2004, 11:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Do you honestly believe that God wouldn't allow things to change with the times?
Like allowing for gay marriage?

checkmate.
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Old 03-03-2004, 11:52 AM   #54
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Like allowing for gay marriage?
Unless they were things expressly forbidden in the Bible like gay marriage, murder, theft, purjury, beastiality, etc...which have never changed in terms of their legality and never should, and for all our sakes I hope they never will. I would hate to think I will wake up one day to turn on the news and find out there is a supreme court hearing a case about the right to murder someone as a "unmentioned" constituitional right.

checkmate
Game set and match.
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Old 03-03-2004, 11:57 AM   #55
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Unless they were things expressly forbidden in the Bible like gay marriage, murder, theft, purjury, beastiality, etc...which have never changed in terms of their legality and never should.
So then I suppose a smart investor's money should be going into mining and quarries as there will be a surge of activity requiring product from those industries.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:00 PM   #56
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Only if you are expecting to unearth a clue there.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:15 PM   #57
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Trith, you are really off your nut lately. Logic > you. I'm starting to lump you in with the tunnel-visioned religious kooks like Rheaton.

Regarding your latest idea: Homosexuality and pre-marital sex come to mind. Both are forbidden by your story book, yet both are perfectly legal in this country.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:16 PM   #58
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/em listens to the sound of superior wit and intellect sailing over Trith's head yet again.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:26 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wildane
You would compare and act of God to an act of man? And you're calling someone else retarded? Apples and orangutans.
Yeah, I would. Since if it was God that created us with his laws on our hearts, then it looks like we know better than he does that terrorism is immoral.

You can spin it up all you want, Wildane. Killing millions of people just to persuade others to join a cause, or group, is immoral no matter who does it.

If you think it is morally good for God to do such atrocities, then take the time to explain why.

Your argument of following the Bible to the letter as far as punishment is concerned is ludicrous.
Actually, your brain power is what is getting weaker. Although I am surprised by how long that single brain cell of yours is able to chug away. Sort of similar to the story of the "Little Train that Could", but in your case the brain cell just doesn't make it over the proverbial mountain.

God, by definition, is immutable. The Bible says that his word never changes. That means he doesn't change his mind about laws. That is yet another reason why intelligent people understand that the Bible is a work of fiction.

Here are some relevant biblical texts...

Malachi 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change…" (NAS)

Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yea and forever.”

Psalm 119:160 "The entirety of Your word is truth, and everyone of Your righteous judgments endures forever."

John 10:35 "The Scripture cannot be broken."

Psalm 119:89 "Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven."

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar."
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:44 PM   #60
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Regarding your latest idea: Homosexuality and pre-marital sex come to mind. Both are forbidden by your story book, yet both are perfectly legal in this country.
Homosexuality is still distinctly illegal in many states Horm. Pre-marital sex is not forbidden in the Bible, it is frowned on. Go read the Book of Ruth and come back when you have been enlightened.

This was my point, you fuckups on the left take these amazing stereotypes and combine them with your complete and utter lack of knowledge about what you are talking about and the resultant recipe is a shitburger that gets shoved right back down your own throat. If you have a hard time understanding the Book of Ruth I will be happy to point you to some literature that will explain it CORRECTLY for you, and it sure as hell won't be written by Lurikeen.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:48 PM   #61
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Trith, you keep complaining about the scripture I have quoted. How about refuting it? Oh, that's right... you can't since it is clearly the bible I am quoting and not just tossing out my opinions.

Carry on.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:57 PM   #62
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If you think it is morally good for God to do such atrocities, then take the time to explain why.
I can neither judge Him to be moral or immoral. He's the supreme being, I'm not. You want an amoeba telling you what to do?
That is yet another reason why intelligent people understand that the Bible is a work of fiction.
Then why do you believe it's fiction? God's laws haven't changed. The punishments have, but that is because we believe in a little thing called progress.

I think Proverbs 30:2-3 best sums up Lurikeen:
2 "I am the most ignorant of men;
I do not have a man's understanding.
3 I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:01 PM   #63
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Deuteronomy 22 (King James Version)

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.


Seems to me that premaritial sex is a bit more than frowned up.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wildane
I can neither judge Him to be moral or immoral. He's the supreme being, I'm not. You want an amoeba telling you what to do?
Isn't fiction wonderful? You can create all sorts of "escape hatches" to let yourself off the hook when confronted with reason.


Originally Posted by Wildane
Then why do you believe it's fiction? God's laws haven't changed. The punishments have, but that is because we believe in a little thing called progress.
If God doesn't change, and his words are immutable, then his remedies for sin don't change either. He provided the remedies for certain sins in the biblical passages I quote above. The punishment's changed as society changed.

We know that as society progresses forms of punishment, once proscribed by God, as recorded in the bible, have been eliminated as being inhumane. Those who believe the bible is the "word of God" can't really reconcile societal changes (progress) with the "word of God". If they had to do so, then they would be forced to abandon the book as a poorly written fairy tale.


Originally Posted by Wildane
I think Proverbs 30:2-3 best sums up Lurikeen:
Apparently, I have far more knowledge of the words of "the Holy One", than you do. Which is really hilarious!
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:13 PM   #65
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Isn't fiction wonderful? You can create all sorts of "escape hatches" to let yourself off the hook when confronted with reason.
Oh? You believe it is reasonable to judge God? THAT'S hilarious.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:14 PM   #66
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Wildane, you are denser than a solid block of lead. I don't believe there is a God. I can no more judge God, than you can judge a Unicorn for grazing on the wrong side of a fence.
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Cooking with Trith
take these amazing stereotypes and combine them with your complete and utter lack of knowledge about what you are talking about and the resultant recipe is a shitburger
Note to self..... Do not accept dinner party invitations from Trith.
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:51 PM   #68
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When the Tribulations come can I have your car?
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Old 03-03-2004, 03:50 PM   #69
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/sigh.

Ok lots here you all are discussing.

With regards to the original post - if the/any Mayor(s) broke the law, he/they need to be punished accordingly. Period. If the voters do not like the current law, then they need to vote to change it.



With regards to the stoning issue. Couple things: we do not stone people anymore. Not because God has changed... but for a couple other reasons.

1) it is not really acceptable to do so. I (and others) find that terrible. This is the very least of the reasons though.

2) More important than 1, is that Jesus has now made a New Covenant with humanity that supercedes and is superior to the Old Covenant (law i.e. the old commandments and other punishments required in the OT).

3) Jesus Himself said that "He who without sin, let him cast the first stone...." Need I explain this one? If so, go read the entire passage in context, then we will discuss it.

4) God is the judge, not us. Therefore, although we may disagree with someone's lifestyle, that does not give us the right to pass judgement on them. (I mean real judgement as in throwing stones).

Quit twisting the words to make them fit your argument (this applies to many people believers and non-believers alike). Taking a phrase out of the bible and using it to support your argument only works if you have used the quote in the manner in which it was intended. There are many ways you can do this (hermeneutics). Point is, use passages and quotes in context. (Now arguing over possible meanings of the text can take great time so be prepared for that if you do).
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Old 03-03-2004, 04:08 PM   #70
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Last thing I am going to do is to respond to the various Tribulation comments floating around out here in MSB land.

Let me begin by using a few quotes. (Don't feel singled out if I used your quotes here, I actually don't recall whose post they are from).


Since if it was God that created us with his laws on our hearts, then it looks like we know better than he does that terrorism is immoral.
Yes, indeed, God created us with His laws on our hearts, which we have broken. All humanity. No exceptions. The terrorism part is an inccorect assumption you are making. you do not understand what God is doing. or perhaps you view it differently. Either way, please allow me to give you an alternative viewpoint.

You can spin it up all you want, Wildane. Killing millions of people just to persuade others to join a cause, or group, is immoral no matter who does it.
Actually, God will not be killing millions of people. He will be passing judgement for the laws which we have already broken and deserve punishment for.
If you think it is morally good for God to do such atrocities, then take the time to explain why.
I will explain why God will be doing this to humanity. We need to understand that God is a God of Love and Justice both. He loves us which is why He delays so long in judging us and yet, He does judge us eventually. Which is also done out of love. God shows repeatedly throughout the Bible that He judges us only when it becomes an absolute necessity. for our own survival.

Sidenote: Lurikeen mentioned Sodom and Gomorah. God destroyed those because they were knee deep in all manner of sins sexual and otherwise, gay and straight, Yes, BUT the main reason He judges them is NOT for that. The main reason, or should I say their greatest sin of many, was because they did not care for the poor and needy. God even said if 10 good men could be found He would spare the city. Alas.... none was. Poof!

Anyways here is a really good quote regarding God's judgement during the tribulation along with some of His redemptive activity during the same time (you know where He tries to save all of humanity before He must judge them....): All bold, italics etc. are my additions. This is a lot of reading.


During this period, God is unusually active in judging the world. God's judgmental activity is portrayed as a series of three 7-fold judgments: the seal judgments (6:1-17; 8:1), the trumpet judgments (8:2-9:21; 11:15-19), and the bowl judgments (15:5-16:21).

The three sets of judgments increase in intensity, and they seem to end with the return of Jesus—yet the 7th seal and trumpet judgments seem to open the trumpet and bowls judgments. The main point is that they describe God's temporal (distinct from his final judgment) judgment on humanity, and that they end with Jesus' return to defeat his enemies and establish God's kingdom.

This brings us to an important insight about these judgments—namely, how God judges. Because God is sovereign, all of these events are ultimately his judgments. But it is clear that some of them are active judgments directly initiated by God, while many of them are passive judgments—initiated by wicked people, but used by God for his purposes.

The Bible is full of examples of God's active and passive judgment. The plagues of Egypt during Moses' day, through which God put increasing pressure on Pharaoh, are examples of God's active judgment. The conquest of Israel (by the Assyrian by Shamanesar) and Judah (by the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar) are examples of God's passive judgment. God permitted these wicked rulers to do what they wanted to do, but used their actions to discipline Israel and Judah for their rebellion—after which God judged these rulers for their wickedness.

So also in Revelation, most of the Tribulational judgments are God's passive judgment. He removes his normal restraint of evil and permits wicked persons (demonic and human) to do what they want and to give rebellious humanity what it wants. Paul's overview of this same period makes this clear (read and explain 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10).

All but one of the “seal” judgments are God's passive judgment. Read 6:1,2. This is evidently a description of the emergence of the Antichrist to arise, as he sets out to conquer the world militarily. This sets in motion a series of horrible consequences in the next 3 seals: worldwide war (6:3-4), famine (6:5-6), and death (6:7-8). He also kills many of Jesus' followers (6:9), which is obviously not God's direct judgment. Only then do we read of the direct intervention of God (6:12-17) through a series of unique seismic and cosmic events that signal the return of Christ and his direct judgment on his enemies.

It appears that most of the “trumpet” judgments are also God's passive judgment. Trumpets 1-4 evidently record the devastation caused by the Antichrist's (and Satan's) horrible rule over humanity: land, ocean and aquifer devastations, and (possibly) nuclear winter (8:6-12). Trumpet 5 records the unleashing of demons to attack humanity (summarize 9:1-11). Notice that an unfallen angel “unlocks” the pit that unleashes Abaddon (Satan or a demonic ruler). Trumpet 6 describes the “releasing” of an army to kill a third of humanity (read 9:14-16). Only then do we read of the direct judgment of God in the 7th trumpet to establish his kingdom and destroy those who have destroyed the earth in this way (read 11:15, 18).

Only in the “bowl” judgments do we read of a terrible series of (apparently) direct judgments by God on the Antichrist and his unrepentant followers. The first five are a series of plagues on them (16:1-9). The sixth is a passive judgment, by which the Antichrist gathers the rebellious nations together for the final battle against Jesus (16:12-16). The seventh describes God's direct judgment of “mystery Babylon”—Satan's evil system (16:17-21).

SUMMARIZE: Most are God's passive judgment; while some (final) are active.

This brings us to another important insight—why God judges. Why does God judge passively through most of the Great Tribulation, and why does he judge actively at the end? These two forms of judgment appear to have distinct purposes.

God intervenes in direct, active judgment to destroy his enemies in order to rescue the earth and humanity from destruction.

Why does God passively allow his enemies to do so much damage before he intervenes directly?

Part of the answer seems to be that God is demonstrating the utter folly of rebellion against him (the ancient lie that angels and humanity need to be independent from God to be “free”). By permitting rebels to have what they want, God demonstrates to the whole universe and for all time that the only plan that does not end in total disaster is his rule.

Another part of the answer is that God is working through these passive judgments to polarize humanity so that as many as possible will turn to him. Revelation describes just such a polarization. Many people recognize that this is the hand of God, but refuse to repent and so harden themselves irretrievably (RECURRENT PHRASE: “they did not repent;” “they blasphemed God”). But evidently, millions of others turn to God in part because they realize through these judgments that there is no other answer. The other reason they turn to God is his amazing redemptive activity during this same period of time . . .
Rest in the next part.
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Old 03-03-2004, 04:12 PM   #71
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God's Redemptive Activity

At the same time that God pours out his judgment on humanity (in the above senses) in an extraordinary way, he also acts in extraordinary ways to reach out to people and invite them to come to his Son Jesus for salvation. These same chapters describe at least four extraordinary ways God does this.

THE MARTYRS: Like all tyrants, the Antichrist hates the followers of Jesus because they refuse to worship him and his false religious system (e.g., Rome, Hitler, Stalin, Mao). But as the arch-tyrant, he evidently kills them in numbers that make these tyrants look tame. Read 6:9-11. These are evidently Tribulational martyrs (see also 20:4). God promises that he will judge their killers, but urges them to wait until the full number of martyrs has been killed. Why would God permit this? Because, as church history has shown, “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.” The ultimate witness for Jesus is when his followers actually die for their faith. This was true in 1st and 2nd century Rome, and it was true in 20th century China (STATS). God is willing to allow many of his servants to be martyred so that unsaved people will see the reality of their faith and turn to Jesus. How can let his people go through this? Because he did it himself through Jesus, and because he will more than make up for it in his eternal kingdom.

THE 144,000: During the Tribulation, many Jewish people come to faith in Jesus. God raises up 144,000 of them (read 7:1-8) and protects them from the Antichrist, apparently so they can evangelize millions of people all over the world (read 7:9-10).

THE 2 WITNESSES: God raises up two extraordinary individuals and supernaturally protects them for a 3.5 year preaching ministry centered in Jerusalem (read 11:3). Many believe that these two witnesses are none other than Moses and Elijah (see their unusual departures, their appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration as a foretaste of Jesus coming into his kingdom, 11:6 for similar miracles, and Mal. 4:4-6). The Antichrist murders them, apparently demonstrating his authority over Jesus—but then God raises them from the dead to heaven in full view of the world (read 11:7-12). We may infer that many come to Christ through their preaching.

THE WITNESSING ANGEL: God even sends an angel to proclaim the good news to the whole earth (read 14:6,7). We should assume that many people respond to this amazing witness.

All of this extraordinary evangelistic activity apparently culminates in two “reapings” when Jesus returns. His angels “reap” the ripe harvest of living believers by rescuing them and bringing him into his kingdom (14:14-16), and they “reap” all unrepentant rebels into judgment (14:17-19).

Christians disagree over the specific identity of these figures—but the main point is clear. The God of the Bible, who will eventually judge all unrepentant rebels, is also the God who cares about people, does not wish for any to perish, and takes extraordinary measures to reach out to them (2 Peter 3:9).

So What?
God's dealings with humanity during the Great Tribulation parallel the ways in which he deals with each one of us individually.

“I am allowing you to go your own way and to experience the futility of life without me.” How does God normally respond in this life when we don't want anything to do with him? He lets us go our own way in the hope that we will discover that all of our idols are empty, that we can't make life work without him (EXAMPLES). This is the passive judgment of God (Romans 1:18ff.).

“If you persist in your rebellion against me, I will reluctantly sentence you to eternal alienation from me.” But there is a finite time to change your mind about bowing to God. He will not allow us to run roughshod over his universe forever. There will come a day when God will enforce forever what we have chosen in this life. This is the active judgment of God (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

“I love you and I am inviting you to come to me through Jesus.” Even as he lets you go, God is hoping that you will come to your senses and come to him. And he makes it clear that no matter how much you may have rebelled against him, he is ready to forgive you and indwell you and transform your life. This is why he sends his people to share with you, pray for you, invite you to meetings like this, etc. This is God's redemptive activity in your life (John 3:16). What are you going to do with God's invitation?
Comments to follow
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Old 03-03-2004, 04:24 PM   #72
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All of the above information regarding the tribulation can be found at This Address Its a very good read, the entire series actually is phenomenal at worst, life changing at best.



Now, I understand many do not really agree with the whole tribulation end of the world judgement kind of thing I quoted above.

That is your choice.

But if you are going to sit here and discuss this, you really ought to have a good basis for your arguments.

Many people simply cannot comprehend that a loving God would judge His own creation, in order to save it. Yet, we judge and discipline our children everyday. And we do it out of love. God does the same. He cannot allow humans to go our own way indefinitely for we will destroy ourselves. he intervenes when He must.

In other words, God is not using terrorist tactics to convince people to believe in Him. Instead, He is heaping mercy upon mercy by allowing us to see - really see - His hand at work in the world, or lack of it (by the releasing of His control over evilness and demons thereby resulting in the judgements).

I don't really expect to change your minds, those who disagree. But this is a belief of mine, and I have studied it, and I do agree with it, and after all, you guys are the ones asking why God would do this.

Now that I've given you the reasons, it is up to you to either accept it, reject it, or to further investigate it. Whichever you choose is completely up to you. I do pray that you will all look at the information and at the very least, deem it worthy of further thought and investigation. But whichever you choose, I will accept.

Btw, I am not intending this three post discourse as a means of evangelizing. I did it to answer valid questions that were raised and present what I think is a valid and clear explanation.

Luky out.

Good thing too, this was long as heck. There is a reason I don't post here often. This took me forever........

As always, no offense intended, only presentation of a viewpoint. Accept or reject, your choice. Also, as always, if all you want to do is call me names, but have nothing good to offer, don't bother, I don't answer flames.
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Old 03-03-2004, 05:20 PM   #73
Lurikeen
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Originally Posted by Lukaria
Taking a phrase out of the bible and using it to support your argument only works if you have used the quote in the manner in which it was intended. There are many ways you can do this (hermeneutics). Point is, use passages and quotes in context. (Now arguing over possible meanings of the text can take great time so be prepared for that if you do).
Lukaria you have touched upon a deep issue in hermeneutics; namely, the idea as to whether or not it is possible to interpret scripture as the writers intended.

I think such is impossible for a number of reasons. Mainly because the texts have been altered from translation to translation and version to version so often that one doesn't really know, for example, if Malachi is really being quoted or some scribe who decided that Malachi was mistaken a bit and needed some "help".

Also, none of the original biblical documents exist. So we can't just pick up the New International Version of the bible and compare it with original hebrew, greek, and aramaic texts to know if our current translations are even remotely accurate.

Secondly, it is perfectly proper when explaining a critical interpretation of the text to quote it, without quoting the entire chapter, or even paragraph, a particular verse is part of. All that is needed is to be able to defend an interpretation. Since you seem to be complaining, you should have at least offered explanations as to why particular interpretations were incorrect. Instead, you merely postulated your own interpretations. Arguing, "you really ought to have a good basis for your arguments" while not pointing out why the basis presented by your opponent is not good really isn't a refutation at all.


Originally Posted by Lukaria
2) More important than 1, is that Jesus has now made a New Covenant with humanity that supercedes and is superior to the Old Covenant (law i.e. the old commandments and other punishments required in the OT).
Could you please explain how a perfect God could concoct a plan that not only supersedes but is superior to one of his previous plans? Or, are you willing to accept that God does make mistakes?


Originally Posted by Lukaria
But if you are going to sit here and discuss this, you really ought to have a good basis for your arguments.
I am going to give you the same advice. The bible is certainly not a good basis for your arguments. For instance, citing the bible as the basis for some sort of "end time tribulation" is wholly circular in reasoning. When asked, "How do you know that is true?" the typical answer is "It's the word of God!" When asked, "How do you know that?" the typical response is, "Because the bible tells me so".
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Old 03-03-2004, 07:27 PM   #74
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Well this argument is tired. I am glad courts have said "seperate is not equal". I look forward to that crpa Louisianna legislation being struck down by the Supreme Court. I also look forward to a time, when small minded people realize gays aren't asking for anything "extra", they just don't accept being ripped off of the benefits of marriage.

Your opinions are your own, and that is great. I don't care what religious justification you use, because history has proven that it is as useless as the motives behind it. The ideas of "let them have civil unions, but don't let them throw it in our face" is crap. Straight people get to throw thier marriages in anyone's face, eat shit and die.

I'm a straight girl, I love boys. But I am so tired of seeing this pathetic idea of "marriage" being held as anything other than discrimination. There have been no negative consequences created by marriage of gays. The only negativity is the straight people that are reacting to them.

For once I am glad that the judicial branch operates how it does. It means that these pathetic, self righteous anti-happiness pigs will not matter. Haha, that's right. The courts will do what is right by the law, and strike down this pathetic attempt at discrimination. If you don't like it, go suck GW's dick and see if you can get his amendment passed. Until then, the courts can and will continue to allow gays to have the same rights as straights. I can tell you one thing, if you think there is religious justification, there are people praying for equal rights, just as surely as there are praying against them. Looks to me like God is answering. Hmmm, which ones did he side with?
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Old 03-03-2004, 08:27 PM   #75
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Everclear,
Yes it will go to a vote. And the majority rules. Like it or not
we cannot allow anarchy in the courtroom.

Btw, Marriage isn't an entitlement.


GOD BLESS AMERICA
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