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Old 03-02-2004, 03:00 AM   #26
AresProphet
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The whole point, "fucktard", is that the laws arise out of our inherent sense of goodness. Why else would we have them? Wouldn't the people in position to enforce those laws, rather use their power to just be more greedy? It's not as though laws just spring up out of nowhere; they are human creations.

Yes, we're selfish and greedy, but it sometimes benefits us more to cooperate than to simply go all-out and fend for ourselves in an anarchy. Look up the following keywords on Google and browse around:

iterated prisoners dilemma
game theory
selfish genes

You'll come up with some excellent literature on the subject, as well as (possibly) some sites with a "for dummies" summary which might suit you better.
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:46 AM   #27
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The 'selfish man' theory still fit's the business strata IMHO
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:56 AM   #28
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Speaking of Political Correctness, I just noticed something this morning. I don't know how it is in other States, but here in Georgia, just about all the election places are at Church's. How ironic is that. Talk about seperation of Church and State. You can't put a Christmas tree in the Courthouse, but you have to vote at a Church.
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Old 03-02-2004, 04:44 AM   #29
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Yup.. and when the state cant help your dire situation, they suggest that you see if a church can provide you assistance.
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Old 03-02-2004, 04:57 AM   #30
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Aresprophet said: "He doesn't fire those workers out of malice, he does it without consideration. He is just after his personal gain, like everyone else in the world. <continued>

Unforunately, when systems give rise to individuals who can make vast changes to others' lives by decisions to enhance their own, the idea of "cooperation through selfishness" falls apart. It can be very detrimental to the welfare of a species if one person decides, out of selfishness, to nuke random cities. So even though "greed is good", because it typically leads to cooperation, greed cna be very bad in todays world at higher levels of power."
That's the only part that worries me, an individual's co-operative greed can burn out a selfish impulse through natural extinction, but a concert of fellows, say in an organisation, may self-perpetuate though individuals contained in it are shed (it replaces them). In a world of economic rationalism these birds roost together under the flag of 'reward' and call that 'success'.

Whether tis the vehicle of oligarchic tendencies and groupthink, or straight co-operative greed, the limits of natural/logical boundedness are able to be set aside. The individual is free to reward himself/herself to his/her hearts content because they are inside the system organisational hierarchy.
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Old 03-02-2004, 06:41 AM   #31
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The opposite of love is not hate, its selfishness.

Selfishness polarizes people - you either are being selfish or you are not. Justifying actions we take, telling ourselves the end justifies the means etc., are simply processes that help us to feel better about it when we acting selfishly. (I know that is a convoluted statement - read a few times and I think you'll get the meaning).

And of course, imo, all humans are selfish.



As for the PC thing. Yes, we go way way too far imo.

What is very interesting is that the kids who grew up with political correctness, actually seem to believe that its a good thing and a right thing and a thing to be desired and lived by. I find it to be lacking common sense at best.

That does not mean I think we should all run around being jerks, rather that if everyone was truly loving and tolerant there would be no need for political correctness imo. /sigh it ain't gonna happen tho I know that.

Obviously, I think that PC has gone too far.

Imo, people have forgotten how to treat others. We should treat others with respect because they are a fellow human being worthy of our effort, not because you don't want to offend. PCness takes the responsibility off of the individual to act in a manner that is worthy and places the responsibility on the label....... Very silly imo and twisted as well.
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Old 03-02-2004, 07:28 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Misty
Whether tis the vehicle of oligarchic tendencies and groupthink, or straight co-operative greed, the limits of natural/logical boundedness are able to be set aside. The individual is free to reward himself/herself to his/her hearts content because they are inside the system organisational hierarchy.
The idea of "co-operative" greed is that people will not toss away rules, because they are to selfish to risk loss of what they consider goods. It is such selfishness that keeps the world intact and one reason why the major powers just don't haul off and nuke each other.

An oligarchy will not risk a loss in their power, so out of self-preserving greed they will keep the masses happy, and they themselves will submit to laws to prevent one of their class from rising up to establish a dictatorship.

However, we can't talk of government of any type as being anything more than a fundamental expression of good.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:20 AM   #33
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""The whole point, "fucktard", is that the laws arise out of our inherent sense of goodness."" If we were inherently good then why would we need laws? If Humans were a proud and noble race then we would need no laws, courts, or jails.

""Why else would we have them?"" Because with out them Earth would be in a state of anarchy.

""Wouldn't the people in position to enforce those laws, rather use their power to just be more greedy?"" Those people in position don't do it for free.

""It's not as though laws just spring up out of nowhere; they are human creations"" Yet no two nations or states have the exact same laws. Laws are created in order to prevent our internal evilness from springing out.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:28 AM   #34
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I come from a socialist country Inmountains. I can tell you now that there is far more Govt. interference in the workaday world of Americans than there is among my own people. Hell Americans have at least four seperate jurisdictions governing their actions in any given locale; city, county, state and federal, and each of these have a myriad of law enforcement and legal bodies.
That has nothing to do with control, and everything with necessity. I would hazard a guess that US is a much larger country than yours with about 50 times the populace. A single entity to provide law, order, and services is an impossibility. We hold the right to be governed by our states, which are in turn monitored by the federal. This is a blessing compared to socialist system any day of the week because we do not have to wait for an executive decision from some faceless entity 1000 miles away to determine what we can or cannot do. We can raise issues at thet local level, vote on them if necessary, and move on with our lives, something you cannot achieve in a socialist enviroment.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:16 PM   #35
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Lurikeen:

Whether the greedy individual actually cares about 'the rules' in their literal function or is afforded the freedom of an interest group to carefully vet them and regard that as a clever screen for the collective scams of his social class...

Consider the social balance of earnings rewarded at the bargaining table, the whip hand is obviously held by management which sets its own reward scale and another for the worker on its wages account. That is the nub of it.

The politically correct thing to say or to do at this point is to fumble with some sorta washy apology for taking the thread offbeam a little way, I think I have succeeded.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:47 PM   #36
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""The whole point, "fucktard", is that the laws arise out of our inherent sense of goodness."" If we were inherently good then why would we need laws? If Humans were a proud and noble race then we would need no laws, courts, or jails.

""Why else would we have them?"" Because with out them Earth would be in a state of anarchy.

""Wouldn't the people in position to enforce those laws, rather use their power to just be more greedy?"" Those people in position don't do it for free.

""It's not as though laws just spring up out of nowhere; they are human creations"" Yet no two nations or states have the exact same laws. Laws are created in order to prevent our internal evilness from springing out.
*watches point sail over "fucktard"s head*

Your head would sink in mercury, I swear...
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Old 03-02-2004, 01:23 PM   #37
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If the point went over my head then why not tell me what "sailed" over.
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Old 03-02-2004, 01:27 PM   #38
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Because that, too, would sail over. Apparently basic logic is too advanced for you.
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Old 03-02-2004, 05:55 PM   #39
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Still not an answer to my question.
Or is it maybe that MY logic is to advanced for you to understand?
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Old 03-02-2004, 06:12 PM   #40
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I'm not the one who doesn't realize he answers his own question when he posts.
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:17 PM   #41
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""" ""The whole point, "fucktard", is that the laws arise out of our inherent sense of goodness."" If we were inherently good then why would we need laws? If Humans were a proud and noble race then we would need no laws, courts, or jails.

""Why else would we have them?"" Because with out them Earth would be in a state of anarchy.

""Wouldn't the people in position to enforce those laws, rather use their power to just be more greedy?"" Those people in position don't do it for free.

""It's not as though laws just spring up out of nowhere; they are human creations"" Yet no two nations or states have the exact same laws. Laws are created in order to prevent our internal evilness from springing out. """

Here let me break this down to what I got from your responce, and what I ment, so then you can tell me how I answered my own questions. Ok?

In the first paragraph: You:Humans are, by nature, good, therefor we created laws. Me:If Humans were so good then why create any formal written laws.

In the second paprgraph: You:Why have laws if we are not a good race? MeWhat I thought I was saying, but went the wrong direction with it. ) Laws were not created out of the goodness of Humans, but out of the greed and insticts of our species. We did it for OUR proterction, not others. And the were created against our own species, not some other.

In the third paragraph: You:People with power to enforce the rules would have been curropted long ago. Me:People of power usually get what satifies their own greed.

In the last paragraph: You: Humans created laws. Me:Humans created laws, but only to satisfy the needs of their state so as they could keep their power.
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Old 03-03-2004, 09:30 AM   #42
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I still think you've answered your own question, but in the interest of speeding this along...

Humans are only "inhernetly good" because we are "inherently selfish", and because being "bad" generally means you aren't going to live very long. So, it is in your best interest to behave, but also primarily to make sure that others behave as well. Thus, law and order will arise, because people don't want to live in a society where they might get killed at the slightest provocation.

You seem to have a general grasp on that idea but you just don't add it up.
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Old 03-04-2004, 12:53 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Trith
That has nothing to do with control, and everything with necessity. I would hazard a guess that US is a much larger country than yours with about 50 times the populace. A single entity to provide law, order, and services is an impossibility. We hold the right to be governed by our states, which are in turn monitored by the federal. This is a blessing compared to socialist system any day of the week because we do not have to wait for an executive decision from some faceless entity 1000 miles away to determine what we can or cannot do. We can raise issues at thet local level, vote on them if necessary, and move on with our lives, something you cannot achieve in a socialist enviroment.
Yes, the US has a much larger population. Australia is also policed at a state level and a federal level. There are no such thing as counties and cities and towns do not have police forces.

I have the advantage of having lived in both places. You have lived where exactly? And where would you have gotten your facts about socialist nations? I don;t mind debating stuff, but do come back after you've lived outside a podunk cloister for a little while. It's a big world out there Trith; I'm surprised the Internet hasn't scared you off yet.
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Old 03-04-2004, 01:35 AM   #44
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