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Old 10-17-2011, 12:52 PM   #1
Wildane
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Default Is he or isn't she?

Controversial Therapy for Pre-Teen Transgender Patient Raises Questions
A lesbian couple in California who say their 11-year-old son Tommy who wants to be a girl named Tammy are giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty -- so that he can have more time that he can have more time to decide if he wants to change his gender.

The couple’s supporters say the Hormone Blocking Therapy has only minor side effects and is appropriate for a child who is unsure of his gender. "This is definitely a changing landscape for transgender youth," said Joel Baum, director of education and training for Gender Spectrum, a California-based non-profit group. "This is about giving kids and their families the opportunity to make the right decision."

But critics of the treatment say 11-year-olds are not old enough to make life-altering decisions about changing their gender, and parents should not be encouraging them. They say it’s too soon to tell what the side effects of the treatments may be, and they say Tommy’s parents, Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel, are irresponsible for seeking them and allowing them to be administered.

"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.

"It is a disorder of the mind. Not a disorder of the body. Dealing with it in this way is not dealing with the problem that truly exists.

“We shouldn't be mucking around with nature. We can’t assume what the outcome will be," McHugh said.

Dr. Manny Alvarez, senior managing health editor of FoxNews.com, said the hormone blockers also may pose a medical risk. "I think that it’s highly inappropriate to be interfering with natural hormonal growth patterns,” Alvarez said. “There are significant potential problems necessary for growth and development.

"Potential long-term effects can include other abnormalities of hormones, vascular complications and even potential cancer. I think that if this child – as he finishes his puberty and teenage years – decides to undergo a transgender procedure – then there are proper channels to do so.

“But to do it at the age of 11 -- to me -- could be potentially dangerous to the health of this child," he said.
OK, it's Fox News, so its authenticity is automatically suspect. It wouldn't surprise me if this were a made-up story to try and discredit same-sex couples when it comes to rearing children. However, if true, this is outrageous. I guess letting nature take its course is too much to ask? If this kid wants to grow up and switch genders, more power to him, but synthetically delaying puberty doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Hope they have good health insurance, because this kid is going to need lots of therapy.
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:44 PM   #2
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People are too afraid of being labeled homophobic if they speak out. Nothing will be done.
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:59 AM   #3
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I'll say it, that is just plain old fucked up.
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:27 AM   #4
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Injecting a child full of drugs to push your own agenda is probably one of the most heinos <sp?> and evil things I can think of anyone doing.
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:58 AM   #5
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Well, I don't think they're doing it for any kind of agenda, they're just catastrophically ignorant.

What I worry about is any doctor who would perform this procedure. The only one that should be making this decision is the boy. However, the boy isn't old enough to enter into any kind of contract agreement, so I don't know why they believe he's responsible enough to make decisions that will affect the rest of his life.
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Old 10-18-2011, 11:26 AM   #6
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There's not really enough info to go on.

There's some scare BS about potential side effects, none of which are enumerated.

I think it's fine.

They are delaying puberty (for how long?) with drugs that seem to have no serious side effects to give the kid a choice. They aren't making the choice for the kid, but doing what they can to perserve the choice of the kid.

There's no reason to believe that if the kid changes his mind that he won't develop normally. There is however, cause to believe that if the kid is not supported and/or forced into a gender that does not align with mentality there could be very serious consequences. Suicide anyone?

There's really not a story here. It's all so vague. Hell, I have said I had plastic surgery when I was in third grade. Damn I am glad about it.

The one thing he kid will know is that he/she is supported and in control of his/her life. That is important. (Let's not pretend that parents nowadays pump their kids full of all kinds fo crap, whether legalized meth or whatever, because of "ADD" or whatever diagnoses the parents get for undisciplined kids).

Is that abuse? Probably.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:30 PM   #7
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dur... his high school is going to kick his lilly ass..

I seriously doubt there are no side effects of delaying growth spurts. they happen for a reason. its called growing up. delaying too long may mean they dont happen at all.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:46 AM   #8
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Altering the natrual processes of the human body never ends well. Delaying puberty in a male child has serious, even catastrophic side effects.. just ask any male kid who developed later then his peers. Teasing, ass kickings, brutal name calling, inability to do what the other boys are cause your to small... inability to get a girlfriend... It's not fair to the child, not one bit.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:15 AM   #9
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Hmm, parents unilaterally authorizing risky experimental medical procedures to retard their children's development because they want to control their sexuality - what's the problem? If things don't work out, the kid can always get a spot on Dancing With The Stars.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:14 AM   #10
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A lesbian couple have a boy who doesn't want to be a man.


If this article is true, it really doesn't do much to help the old 'Nature vs. Nurture" argument does it?
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:29 AM   #11
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An 11 year old is making this decision? Good call.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:30 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Aolynd View Post
A lesbian couple have a boy who doesn't want to be a man.


If this article is true, it really doesn't do much to help the old 'Nature vs. Nurture" argument does it?
Blame the straight couples. They have more gay kids than gay couples have gay kids...
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Veo View Post
Blame the straight couples. They have more gay kids than gay couples have gay kids...
Hell, we don't know that he's gay. His parents are both female, so this could be a psychological thing as opposed to a physiological one.

Bottom line is, he needs to be able to mature naturally, THEN make those kinds of decisions. I just can't believe that the growth process can be so easily halted with no abnormal side effects. You can't disrupt the menstral cycle without taking risks with side effects; puberty's a once-in-a-lifetime deal.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
Hell, we don't know that he's gay. His parents are both female, so this could be a psychological thing as opposed to a physiological one.

Bottom line is, he needs to be able to mature naturally, THEN make those kinds of decisions. I just can't believe that the growth process can be so easily halted with no abnormal side effects. You can't disrupt the menstral cycle without taking risks with side effects; puberty's a once-in-a-lifetime deal.
Agreed.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:55 PM   #15
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Also agreed.


But I did like this:
Originally Posted by Veo View Post
Blame the straight couples. They have more gay kids than gay couples have gay kids...
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:30 AM   #16
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Hell, at 11 I wasn't interested in the slightest in girls. Fast forward to 13, now... that was another story.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:43 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
Hell, at 11 I wasn't interested in the slightest in girls. Fast forward to 13, now... that was another story.
And the sheep tell it well.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:21 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
Altering the natrual processes of the human body never ends well. Delaying puberty in a male child has serious, even catastrophic side effects.. just ask any male kid who developed later then his peers. Teasing, ass kickings, brutal name calling, inability to do what the other boys are cause your to small... inability to get a girlfriend... It's not fair to the child, not one bit.
As opposed to the terrible treatment of a kid that skips a grade, such as the 11 year old at my highschool? No one was mean to him at all.. in fact he was really cool.

Stop projecting.

I see a lot of fear, but the scientist haven't said that there would be perm. damage or anything (we also don't know how long the treament would last).

The article also said nothing as to attraction, just self identification.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Veo View Post
And the sheep tell it well.
Leave Wildane outta this... that was only once in college...
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
I see a lot of fear, but the scientist haven't said that there would be perm. damage or anything (we also don't know how long the treament would last).
But they haven't said there wouldn't be either. A kid shouldn't be a guinea pig for this shit. Delaying medicine is a good idea. Let the kid work his way through as normal a puberty as he can, and then wait a few years to make this sort of decision.

After all, if he's always been raised to think that boys are yucky beasts, and that he needs to change, it's quite possible he believes the propaganda. (Note: Not sure if this is the case, but I've known a few man-hating lesbians out there who wouldn't blink at instilling this sort of garbage into a kid. I've also known quite a few who made GREAT parents. But I doubt they'd condone this sort of crap being done to a kid either)
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
As opposed to the terrible treatment of a kid that skips a grade, such as the 11 year old at my highschool? No one was mean to him at all.. in fact he was really cool.
You know what the difference is here? Everything besides the fact they're both 11 years old.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wildane View Post
You know what the difference is here? Everything besides the fact they're both 11 years old.
Not really. If he's 11 and in highschool... he had to have skipped a grade or something.

I want to say I was 13 or 14 going into higschool. I turned 16 my sophmore year... so yeah... and 11 year old isn't going to compare to the other kids reagardless. Heck, a regular freshman in highschool looks like a little kid compared to the juniors and seniors. An 11 year old? He's not going to look mature when he graduates, regardless!

(Is this kid even in highschool, or did that just get implied somewhere?)
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
But they haven't said there wouldn't be either. A kid shouldn't be a guinea pig for this shit. Delaying medicine is a good idea. Let the kid work his way through as normal a puberty as he can, and then wait a few years to make this sort of decision.
Right, it's just a big unknown. Again, who knows how long the treatment would last. Seems kinda Michael Jackson-ish to me, but whatever.

I guess I can understand though... how can he make a decision if he isn't allowed to mature? In any case, I hope he is getting counseling. He needs it for the identity issues or to determine potential abuse by man haters.

After all, if he's always been raised to think that boys are yucky beasts, and that he needs to change, it's quite possible he believes the propaganda. (Note: Not sure if this is the case, but I've known a few man-hating lesbians out there who wouldn't blink at instilling this sort of garbage into a kid. I've also known quite a few who made GREAT parents. But I doubt they'd condone this sort of crap being done to a kid either)
True, again, counseling definitely needed. Probably for the whole family.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
True, again, counseling definitely needed. Probably for the whole family.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Pinkheart View Post
True, again, counseling definitely needed. Probably for the whole family.
And HOW!
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