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Old 02-16-2004, 06:26 PM   #26
chukzombi
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Who cares about white rights, you are the one trying to categorize trhe races into what they deserve and dont deserve, i actually live in the US unlike you, i care about americans rights and that they should have the same oppurtunities as other fellow americans , not unfair opportunities based on skin color.
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chukzombi
Who cares about white rights,
Apparently you do. You started a thread on affirmative action.

you are the one trying to categorize trhe races into what they deserve and dont deserve,
I am? Why don't you put up a few quotes where I suggest as much? Better yet, maybe you should take the time to read my postings above. Pay close attention to my response to Trech.

i actually live in the US unlike you,
Hiya Zolmaz, jr.!

i care about americans rights and that they should have the same oppurtunities as other fellow americans , not unfair opportunities based on skin color.
How touching. You care so much you made a posting in the Steam Vent.

So, you want to talk about "unfair opportunities based on skin color" but you haven't defined just what those opportunities based on skin color are. You haven't even showed where opportunities are being taken away from white people.

It is evident that you really have nothing of use to say on this issue. You are just throwing a little tantraum. Hey, that is quite alright, just so long as it is clear that you are rabidly ranting about an issue you really don't understand.
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:38 PM   #28
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The issue Mr Canuck is how affirmative action turns the tables on equality for americans and puts an unfair advantage toward the minority for the sole reason that they are a minority, but since you really dont care about America becuase you dont live here it wouldnt be of consequence to you canada boy.
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:03 PM   #29
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I'm sure the Canadians viewing this thread will come to love you, Chuk.

affirmative action turns the tables on equality for americans and puts an unfair advantage toward the minority for the sole reason that they are a minority
No. Affirmative action does not abridge the rights of white people. No. Affirmative action does not afford more rights to non-whites.

It needs to be made perfectly clear that Affirmative action doesn't provide more rights to minorities.

Affirmative action is a set of policies created to dismantle instiutionalized racism. It is generally not a problem unless there are complaints that minorities aren't given equal access to jobs and/or education.

What Affirmative action doesn't do is take jobs or education away from white people and give them to minorities. If you think it does, then please provide some evidence.

As far as an "unfair advantage" being given to minorities, I disagree. I spent four years in the Univeristy system and didn't see white people discriminated against. I certainly didn't see white people turned away from presitgious schools within the University because of their skin color. Again, your case would be convincing if you could provide examples where whites are being discriminated against on the basis of their race and Affirmative action is to blame.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:06 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
What Affirmative action doesn't do is take jobs or education away from white people and give them to minorities. If you think it does, then please provide some evidence.
When people are required to hire a certain percent of minorities in order to meet legal requirement then it DOES take away jobs from whites.

It means that no matter how good a white worker is if a job opening appears and the employer doesn't meet his quota then tough luck whitey.

It also encourages racism because an employer who wants to look at nothing but the applicants qualifications it forced to stop and think "do I meet my quota?"
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:42 PM   #31
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Catcen, I am not saying Affirmative action is perfect.

What I am saying is the white people aren't being systematically discriminated against through Affirmative action. Last time I checked, most white people are able to gain employment and attend colleges and universities of their choice.

For those of you people against Affirmative action, what do you propose to replace it with? Or, are you saying that there is no such thing as racism anymore?
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Old 02-16-2004, 10:23 PM   #32
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Yeah luriken what did i say about canada? oh yeah nothing so um yeah shut your dicksucker. Your pride for your country Canada is touching , i doubt anyone else from canada cares about what happens in the US either. go run along now son or youll miss the curling competition.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:20 AM   #33
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Chuk, get well soon! You are writing more and more like Zolmaz with each posting. I hope that you can recover without suffering permanent damamge to your brain cell.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:34 AM   #34
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What I am saying is the white people aren't being systematically discriminated against through Affirmative action.
Then you don't really understand affirmative action. Any time a white man loses a job opportunity to a minority simply because they need someone of color, he's being discriminated again. That's what affirmative action is; reserving jobs for minorities.
For those of you people against Affirmative action, what do you propose to replace it with?
How about we don't replace it with anything? How about we just take the Race field off the applications and hire based on qualifications alone? That would be the only fair thing to do. Sure, you're going to have some racist white folks who won't hire black folks, but you also have racist black folks who won't hire white folks. Racism isn't a one-way street. But it should be left up to the company to decide how to best operate.

I remember my father telling me that the university where he was employed because a teaching position went to a white applicant and there weren't a lot of minorities employed there. He then proceeded to tell me that no minorities applied for the position...
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:35 AM   #35
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That should read "I remember my father telling me that the university where he was employed came under fire because a teaching position went to a white applicant..."
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:06 AM   #36
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Blacks and other minorities are still very much discriminated against in the job market in the U.S.. There are many varying statistics regarding qualifications, applications and employment.. However, there is also very solid statistics that show qualified minorities being rejected (and the job(s) going to whites). As long as there are these statistics, it shows that prejudice in America is still alive and strong..

But forget all that above and the facts regarding discrimination and prejudice for a moment. Affirmative action is not the solution to this problem. When you enforce a law that mandates legalized discrimination, its wrong regardless of the reasons. When you force companies to hire or meet quotas in regards to race, you have established a legalized standard of selection and not choice.

Neway.. Yes, discrimination in the work place needs to be addressed and worked on... but AA is not the answer.
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:11 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
That's the crux of the issue for you, isn't it? You are pissed of because you percieve others of a different color getting something you can't have. That is the farthest from the truth. For example, there are many scholarships out there that even white people can take advantage of; I believe the Nordic Heritage fund still provides college scholarships to those with a Norwegian heritage.

Also, as I stated above, the easiest way to stop affirmative action is to not participate. Don't check the race box when you fill out an application.
not my whole arguement, ill show you another side why this stuff makes me mad

a privledge(sp?) is something your allowed to do (but your not born with a privledge) if you are given a privledge from birth, no matter what it becomes a right, having the right to have a greater chance into a college and a wide aray(sp?) of grants and scholarships means that you have more rights then I, all men are created = so we should all have the same rights and privledges from birth
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Blacks and other minorities are still very much discriminated against in the job market in the U.S.. There are many varying statistics regarding qualifications, applications and employment.. However, there is also very solid statistics that show qualified minorities being rejected (and the job(s) going to whites). As long as there are these statistics, it shows that prejudice in America is still alive and strong..

But forget all that above and the facts regarding discrimination and prejudice for a moment. Affirmative action is not the solution to this problem. When you enforce a law that mandates legalized discrimination, its wrong regardless of the reasons. When you force companies to hire or meet quotas in regards to race, you have established a legalized standard of selection and not choice.

Neway.. Yes, discrimination in the work place needs to be addressed and worked on... but AA is not the answer.

i agree AA is not the answer, taking the race feild out of it is a good start, and if you think a employer is racist have the government look into it, it can be treated on a person to person level instead of a broad unfair system

as long as it premotes an odd race out it isnt doing what was intended, as for reports and all that, those are all to easy to fake by the groups pushing for the upkeep of the AA system, you can do this by asking in an area with a low minority populas(sp?) its like going into a democratic disgussion(sp?) group and asking who likes bush, its still a public area so they can call it a public servay, see my point? these "facts" can be set up like lab experiments.

and lurk, if someone says everyone that has a name that starts with something other than L may go to college, it is hurting you and helping them, that is disgrimniation (sp?)

this system is basically everyone but whitey is entitled to a hand out
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:33 AM   #39
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When this is discussed, its usually thought of or about majority owned and operated companies. What isnt being addressed is the minority owned and opertated companies that can now openly discriminate with the full backing of the law. A company in New Mexico, owned by a minority, can discriminate against majorities because some white-owned company is suspected of discrimination in New York.

At the very least these issues need to be addressed on a local level and not a national level.


Btw, Lurik.. Are you an American or Canadian citizen?
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:41 AM   #40
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Wildane, I agree with Rheaton. I think he stated the issue well.

While affirmative action isn't perfect, we still have to contend with racism in the US. If we didn't have policies like affirmative action, then we would likely see much more racism.

BTW, I still haven't seen the anti-affirmative action people provide an alternative means at dealing with racism in the hiring and/or application process.

Originally Posted by Wildane
How about we don't replace it with anything? How about we just take the Race field off the applications and hire based on qualifications alone? That would be the only fair thing to do.
I think that might take us towards a solution, but by itself isn't one. Again, checking the race box on an application isn't the issue. It is the practices of businesses and other institutions that is the problem. Indeed, if there hadn't been full scale racism in this country, then we likely wouldn't have seen policies like affirmative action.

The upshot is that replacing affirmative action with "nothing" is really just a denial that racism is still alive and well in this country. We need to have something in place that prevents discrimination on the basis of race.

Any time a white man loses a job opportunity to a minority simply because they need someone of color, he's being discriminated again.
I think you are mistaking affirmative action for a "quota system". The idea of affirmative action (as far as I understand it), is to ensure diversity and to prevent governments and large corporations from discriminating against applicants on the basis of race. Using a large corporation as an example, the corporation is required to hire applicants that resemble the diversity of the region where the corporation is hiring for. So, we would expect that if Westinghouse is hiring for labor positions in a region where the population is predominatly black, that the lions share of the positions will be filled by blacks. All sorts of red flags will go up if the laborers are mostly white and being bussed in from a neighboring state.

The point is that white people aren't losing jobs to minorities on the basis of their color. You will not be able to find a single example where a white person was denied employment or entrance into a university or college because, "we have too many white people here already".

Dotra, having access to a scholarship of any sort is not a right. You don't have the right to enjoy the benefits of a fund set up by the Norwegian Heritage Brotherhood, unless you meet their qulifications. Private institutions can generally make any rules they wish (just so long as they aren't illegal) qualifying applicants for access to a scholarship fund. For example, I may apply to the "Senior's Applesauce Fund", but unless I am a senior citizen I will not be granted a supply of applesauce.
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Btw, Lurik.. Are you an American or Canadian citizen?
I shouldn't dignify such a question with a response, but I will. I am an American. I have no other citizenships. I was born and raised in this country.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
No. Affirmative action does not afford more rights to non-whites.

It needs to be made perfectly clear that Affirmative action doesn't provide more rights to minorities.

Affirmative action is a set of policies created to dismantle instiutionalized racism. It is generally not a problem unless there are complaints that minorities aren't given equal access to jobs and/or education.

What Affirmative action doesn't do is take jobs or education away from white people and give them to minorities. If you think it does, then please provide some evidence.

As far as an "unfair advantage" being given to minorities, I disagree. I spent four years in the Univeristy system and didn't see white people discriminated against. I certainly didn't see white people turned away from presitgious schools within the University because of their skin color. Again, your case would be convincing if you could provide examples where whites are being discriminated against on the basis of their race and Affirmative action is to blame.
Lurikeen you are definately naive as to how affirmative action works. Affirmative action does take jobs and education opportunities away from white males and gives them to minorities. You don't see it so much in the private sector anymore, but try to get on with your local government. My son is trying to get on with the County as a firefighter. He said "mom, the guy stood up and told about 30 of us that they needed to hire minorities". There are 11 openings and 8 of the openings have to go to minorities. That gives 3 white males a shot. He also said the guy told them (with minorities present), that there was a problem because the minorities weren't passing the written test and unlike years ago, they now have to pass the same written test that's given to everyone.
Ask Lith or some of these people on this board that work for the Government. The Government makes no bones about it. It's no secret and they'll tell you up front that they follow the hiring practices of affirmative action.
Paint it up however you like Lurikeen, but it's reverse discrimination and racism at it's finest.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:44 AM   #43
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Using a large corporation as an example, the corporation is required to hire applicants that resemble the diversity of the region where the corporation is hiring for.
How is this any different from my definition? Required to hire applicants that resemble the diversity of the region = having a certain number of whites, a certain number of blacks, etc. If you are hiring someone for reasons other than knowledge, experience, skill, and the ability to learn, you are unfairly discriminating, in my opinion. I know that sounds like me hoping for Utopia, but we don't have a chance of eliminating racism and prejudice by using any race-related restrictions.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:56 AM   #44
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Another thing that hasn't been addressed with all this AA talk is the bidding process for small businesses for government contracts. Did you all know that if Company A, owned by a white man, and Company B, owned by a minority, both bid on a government contract for goods or services, Company B can go up to 25% OVER Company A's bid, and still get the job. Why? Simply because its minority owned.

That, my friends, is crazy and is racism at its finest. I thought that we were fighting for this country because ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL ! We can't continue to make and enforce laws today, simply because some group was wronged in the past. Start fresh somewhere.

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Old 02-17-2004, 10:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
of you people against Affirmative action, what do you propose to replace it with? Or, are you saying that there is no such thing as racism anymore?
I am aware that racism exists. Just because racism exists, it does not mean that reverse racism should be used to combat it. Since Affirmative Action has not been successful in combating racism, lets get rid of it. Lets try doing nothing to fight racism.

What do we have to lose when what we have isn't working? Racism will always exist, look through history not at our culture but at EVERY culture. We will not remove racism. We should not, however, encourage it by telling employers what races they should hire. Maybe we can at least remove that racism.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:05 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wildane
How is this any different from my definition? Required to hire applicants that resemble the diversity of the region = having a certain number of whites, a certain number of blacks, etc.
Your definition seems to be a "quota". It is percentages not static numbers. You are also missing the main point which is resembles the diviersity of a region. If there are mostly whites in a region we should expect large corporations to be comprised mostly of whites.

Originally Posted by Caelie
Affirmative action does take jobs and education opportunities away from white males and gives them to minorities. You don't see it so much in the private sector anymore, but try to get on with your local government. My son is trying to get on with the County as a firefighter. He said "mom, the guy stood up and told about 30 of us that they needed to hire minorities". There are 11 openings and 8 of the openings have to go to minorities. That gives 3 white males a shot.
Government institutions are strictly held to affirmative action policies. If the agency is far under percentages representing the diversity of the region, then by law they are forced to comply.

He also said the guy told them (with minorities present), that there was a problem because the minorities weren't passing the written test and unlike years ago, they now have to pass the same written test that's given to everyone.
I highly doubt your story. The fellow would have been reprimanded for making such statements. It is more likely your son misconstrued what was actually said. If you don't believe me, then contact the HR department of a local government agency and ask them.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
Lets try doing nothing to fight racism.

What do we have to lose when what we have isn't working?
Sure, while we are at it, let's try doing nothing to fight the war on terror.

Doing nothing is not an alternative.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Sure, while we are at it, let's try doing nothing to fight the war on terror.

Doing nothing is not an alternative.
If what we are doing promotes preferencial treatment towards minorities, AND encourages whites to feel resentment towards minorities that unfairly got the jobs... then yes doing nothing IS an alternative, and a better one.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:16 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
I shouldn't dignify such a question with a response, but I will. I am an American. I have no other citizenships. I was born and raised in this country.

Heheh It was a honest question.. dont go get your puss all puckered up
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Old 02-17-2004, 12:21 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
If what we are doing promotes preferencial treatment towards minorities, AND encourages whites to feel resentment towards minorities that unfairly got the jobs... then yes doing nothing IS an alternative, and a better one.
Do you think it unfair that the military uses affirmative action? Just interested in your response, and anyone else's who is against affirmative action.
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