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Old 06-02-2004, 09:13 AM   #26
Lurikeen
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Here is a nice little tid-bit from a non-partisan group...

"The two potential exceptions were VX nerve agent and mustard agent that had been loaded into 155 mm artillery shells. Iraq lied to UNSCOM about having a VX program until confronted in 1995 with irrefutable evidence that it had developed a capability to produce VX. In 1996, Iraq turned over specialized glass-lined production equipment associated with its VX program, which UNSCOM then destroyed.

The remaining question over Iraq's VX program hinges on the discovery of chemical traces unique to stabilized VX on several destroyed Scud warhead fragments that were excavated by UNSCOM in early 1998. Iraq disputes this finding, admitting that while it did succeed in producing stabilized VX on a laboratory scale, it never weaponized stabilized VX. The Iraqi argument appears to be valid. Producing significant stocks of VX for use on weapons that would still be viable today would have required an advance in CW technology that Iraq did not demonstrate.

Indeed, the glass-lined production equipment turned over to UNSCOM by Iraq in 1996 was intended for large-scale VX production, but it had never been used. In addition, the fact that UNSCOM conducted numerous inspections of ammunition depots, chemical production plants, and potential storage areas, using some of the most sensitive chemical detection technology available, and found no trace of CW agent minimizes the likelihood that Iraq maintains any significant stockpile of VX weapons.
"

Reprinted from the Arms Control Association
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:30 AM   #27
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That is a start.

What of the raw material purchased? ( enough to produce 400tons of VX )...there is no mention of that.

Keep going.

reagrds,
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:34 AM   #28
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Ariochx, you have been proven wrong. Kay says you're wrong and a non-partisan group says you're wrong.

You are plainly being silly now.
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:59 AM   #29
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Actually i am paying attention to details...which you gloss over.

You have proven only that Iraq turned over 1....a single sealed glass device that could have been used to MASS produce VX. You have proven nothing else.

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Old 06-02-2004, 10:09 AM   #30
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Ariochx, at this point you are just nitpicking. Please give it a rest. We'll all thank you.

Cheers!
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:00 PM   #31
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That is strange...

My asking where the pre-cursor chemicals that have been documented to be in the country ( enough to make 400tons of VX ) is "Nittpicking"???

Lets take a close look at the same UNSCOM document...

The document noted that Iraq could either bury precursor chemicals or distribute them throughout its commercial chemical industry to disguise their true use. Likewise, it could distribute empty dual-use munitions to depots under the cover of legitimate use, bury them, or continuously move them around in trucks. The documents required to resume CW activity could, if microfilmed, be stored in a single briefcase.

Source: http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_...qjun.asp?print

Much like the Nuclear documentation found buried in the garden of the head of the Iraqi office with ties to the nuclear weapons program.


Let's continue...

The point is that all of UNSCOM's speculative fears concerning reconstitution of an Iraqi CW capability can be laid to rest as long as a viable monitoring inspection regime, one that would detect any specialized configuration of dual-use equipment, is in placeóthe kind of regime that existed prior to the withdrawal of inspectors in December 1998.

Source: http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_...qjun.asp?print

____________________________________________________________ _

See my point yet....Iraq threw out the UNSCOM team..and even made their job disarming them more difficult then it had to be. In fact one UNSCOM team reported being threatend by armed guards at one point if they entered a facility that Iraq wasn't prepared for them to inspect.

So...there we have it. Prior to the U.S. going into GW2 for 18months we didn't have inspections or inspectors doing their job. Making sure that they didn't simply re-assemble the very dual-use items they had into a chemical weapons program.

But this is nittpicking eh?

Missing chemicals + exsisting hardware + prior admitted VX production + throwing out the UNSCOM inspectors = ????

8) keep reaching

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Old 06-02-2004, 01:24 PM   #32
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To date, there is still no evidence of Iraqi stockpiles or of a recently active program. We all know that Saddam wanted WMD... Perhaps some of the dual use items were actually used for other purposes. Or wait, perhaps they just poured it into the ground.
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ariochx
Missing chemicals + exsisting hardware + prior admitted VX production + throwing out the UNSCOM inspectors = ????

8) keep reaching
Priceless irony!


In 1996, Iraq turned over specialized glass-lined production equipment associated with its VX program, which UNSCOM then destroyed.

Producing significant stocks of VX for use on weapons that would still be viable today would have required an advance in CW technology that Iraq did not demonstrate.


MCCAIN: When you answered a question from Reuters, "What happened to the stockpiles of chemical and bioweapons that everyone expected to be there?," your answer was simple: quote, "I don't think they existed."


Precursor chemicals are not the same as weapons grade VX.

Talk about stretching.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:00 PM   #34
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Lurikeen

Pay attention here ok...for I am going to make a point and if you follow my words you just might understand it. 8)

I am saying that the pre-cursor chemicals in the documented entering the region have yet to be accounted for.

I am saying that the Chemical Industry in Iraqi had the needed hardware on hand to re-assemble a program.

I am saying that the past attitude of Iraq was notworthy to say the least.
-they had denied the program existed until 1995 when confronted with proof they lied about it.

They had a mobile chemical lab they attempted to hide.
- Why / what purpose would you have a mobile chemical lab geared to produce weapons grade stock?

The purpose was to hide it man...they didn't buy a mobile lab to drive around pumping out VX to be visable like the Good Humor Ice Cream Man on a hot sunday afternoon.

I am saying that we have more then enough probable cause to police up and search any and all items that violate the UN Resolutions.

The VX chemical pre-cursors fit in that range nicely.

Did the light bulb finally click on yet?? Iraqi's track record of compliance leads to only one conclusion, and if you can't deduce that yet you are more clueless then I imagine.

Once you accept the fact they were trying to hide the programs, and wouldn't allow the inspectors to do their jobs to ensure they didn't rebuild or hide materials that violated the UN Resolutions they agreed to, you have to take the steps to finish the job we started. We are doing that very thing today.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:14 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ariochx
Pay attention here ok...for I am going to make a point and if you follow my words you just might understand it. 8)
Let me respond in a way you might understand,

Kk, I dink eye wil trie tu fullo wat dat yu writ.

I am saying that the pre-cursor chemicals in the documented entering the region have yet to be accounted for.
You are speculating from an unknown. We have been in Iraq over a year and have as yet to find a single ton of those precursors, which by the way had dual purpose. It is just as likely that the precursors were used for some other purpose and don't exist now. That is just as good an opinion as yours.

I am saying that the Chemical Industry in Iraqi had the needed hardware on hand to re-assemble a program.
What you are saying is incorrect. UNSCOM claims to have destroyed that hardware in 1996 and we have been told that Iraq needed to make an advance in technology in order to make weapons grade VX. An advance Iraq didn't make.

I am saying that the past attitude of Iraq was notworthy to say the least.
-they had denied the program existed until 1995 when confronted with proof they lied about it.
Yes, but we can trust David Kay, UNSCOM, and the source I cited earlier.

They had a mobile chemical lab they attempted to hide.
- Why / what purpose would you have a mobile chemical lab geared to produce weapons grade stock?
Old news. Everyone (but you) now knows the two mobile labs found never produced chemical or biological weapons.

The purpose was to hide it man...they didn't buy a mobile lab to drive around pumping out VX to be visable like the Good Humor Ice Cream Man on a hot sunday afternoon.
The labs were military trucks. Sitting targets for US planes to shoot at on a daily basis. I think I would have hid them, too.

I am saying that we have more then enough probable cause to police up and search any and all items that violate the UN Resolutions.
I would say you are right about that, and that is what the UN inspections was all about.

The VX chemical pre-cursors fit in that range nicely.
You know that how? I have read that the precursor agent was dual purpose and that is why they could order it.

Did the light bulb finally click on yet?? Iraqi's track record of compliance leads to only one conclusion, and if you can't deduce that yet you are more clueless then I imagine.
Non-compliance is not equivalent to possesion. There are other viable reasons why Saddam wouldn't comply. One being touted by the Bush administration these days is that Saddam was lied to by his scientists so that they could continue to skim money off the programs Saddam thought he had.

Once you accept the fact they were trying to hide the programs,
That is not fact. BTW, we didn't go into Iraq because they had "programs". We were told that they had actual, deployable, Weapons of Mass Destruction.

and wouldn't allow the inspectors to do their jobs to ensure they didn't rebuild or hide materials that violated the UN Resolutions they agreed to, you have to take the steps to finish the job we started. We are doing that very thing today.
The inspectors were in Iraq up to a few weeks prior to the US invasion. Bush himself warned them to get out.

I think you have a lot of catching up to do in reading about world events. You are about a year behind in your news.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:33 PM   #36
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The 4 VX Gas Precursors:

Iraq also had a research and development programme for the production of a further nerve agent, VX. According to Iraq's 1995 account, VX was the focus of its research efforts in the period after September 1987. Iraq has stated that between late 1987 and early 1988, a total of 250 tons of phosphorous pentasulphide and 200 tons of di-isopropylamine were imported, these being two key precursors required for the production of VX. For the other precursors required, Iraq claims to have used only approximately 1 ton of methyl phosphonyl chloride (MPC) from a total of 660 tons produced indigenously. The remaining MPC is claimed to have been used to produce DF, then used in GB/GF production. The fourth precursor required for VX, ethylene oxide, was generally available, being a multi- purpose chemical.

...Commission has found traces of these chemicals at the sites at which Iraq states their destruction occurred, it has not been able to verify the quantities destroyed. Thus, precursors for the production of at least 200 to 250 tons of VX could not be definitively accounted for.

Source: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm

Only one of the precursors is tagged multi-purpose.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:41 PM   #37
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From your link Ario,

Iraq claimed that further attempts to produce VX were unsuccessful and the programme was finally abandoned in September 1988. According to Iraq's account, the remaining choline from the 10 tons was burned in early 1988 and the remaining 247 tons of phosphorous pentasulphide was discarded in 1991 by scattering it over an area of land and putting it in pits. Iraq also claimed that 213 tons of di-isopropylamine was destroyed by bombing during the Gulf war. However, while the Commission has found traces of these chemicals at the sites at which Iraq states their destruction occurred, it has not been able to verify the quantities destroyed. Thus, precursors for the production of at least 200 to 250 tons of VX could not be definitively accounted for.
Note: "not be definitively accounted for" that doesn't mean their story is false. It means the sites had degraded such that they couldn't measure exact amounts disposed of.

This is getting boring. When you come up with some up-to-date reports I will be happy to revisit this topic with you.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:42 PM   #38
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phosphorous pentasulphide, di-isopropylamine = pesticides
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:52 PM   #39
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Di-isopropylamine is also a multi purpose checmical. Shit we are using it ionsite here in 2 separate processes as I speak.
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