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Old 03-13-2009, 03:18 AM   #1
Gracey
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Default Please Answer my Query

Hello,
Can we execute any simple program without installing any Operating system? This question asked me at the time of my interview and i won't be able to answering that question so if anybody know the answer then please tell me. I need your answer.

Thanks

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Old 03-19-2009, 09:30 PM   #2
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No. You need the OS in order to have the editor needed to write the program. Only way around it would be a direct input to your cpu that allowed you to write binary code. Or, to pre-program a chip (how bios works).
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:00 PM   #3
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Don't bother, Cae. This spam group (embroideryplanet) has been busy here lately. I'm reporting them yet again.
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
No. You need the OS in order to have the editor needed to write the program. Only way around it would be a direct input to your cpu that allowed you to write binary code. Or, to pre-program a chip (how bios works).
Well, ignoring the spam part...

Actually, yes you can execute a simple program without an OS, or a complicated one for that matter.

The question was about executing, not writing the program. I do it all the time as an embedded systems software engineer.
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:32 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ice Weasel X View Post
Don't bother, Cae. This spam group (embroideryplanet) has been busy here lately. I'm reporting them yet again.

Yeah, our mods used to delete these suckers when I reported the posts.

I guess Brigiid and Ini are too busy playing with each other or something
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Man that just rolls off the tongue nicely.

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I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
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And you wonder why I don't play nice with you? You leave my man buttons alone.. Those are Davek's.
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:04 AM   #6
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There. Sucked the spam right out of it.
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
There. Sucked the spam right out of it.
QFT! BRIGIID SUCKS!!
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Man that just rolls off the tongue nicely.

Originally Posted by Karthanon View Post
I know, you're in Ottawa, Davek. Still, I can't help but /poke you.
Originally Posted by Drysdale View Post
And you wonder why I don't play nice with you? You leave my man buttons alone.. Those are Davek's.
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:10 PM   #8
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But she's usually not sucking "spam" out of "it".
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:24 PM   #9
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sucking it till it spasms, then?

hey b, can you order some of this and let us know if it's any good?
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:24 AM   #10
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...

Apparently you've forgotten about my ban on IWX links.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by GraemeFaelban View Post
Well, ignoring the spam part...

Actually, yes you can execute a simple program without an OS, or a complicated one for that matter.

The question was about executing, not writing the program. I do it all the time as an embedded systems software engineer.
How would you feed the program to the chip? I assumed a personal computer in the scenario. With a personal computer, input devices are unrecognized until BIOS are loaded (which is, in fact, a mini-os "Basic Input/Output System"). Without any way to feed the program to the computer, how would you execute it?

I realize now the original post was spam, but now I'm curious =p.
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brigiid View Post
...

Apparently you've forgotten about my ban on IWX links.
Nope, but I'm making it a point to keep linking to funny shit that you're missing now. Neener!

One of my friends owns a convenience store and is a fan of stocking odd drinks. We were discussing the feasibility of bringing a few bottles of that stuff to school. One of these days I'm gonna get a bottle of Windex and drink that during lab duty. I pulled that crap with a bottle of isopropyl alcohol filled with water while cleaning a printer several years ago and learned the hard way that no matter how much you clean those bottles, you don't get rid of the alcohol. Soap, water, Listerine, more soap, more water, more water... and it still tasted like rubbing alcohol days later. My stomach wasn't happy. Supposedly Windex is easier to purge from a bottle. Those things hold more than a lot of what I've been drinking anyway, and I get thirsty.
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by IWX
Nope, but I'm making it a point to keep linking to funny shit that you're missing now. Neener!
That's OK, I'll pass on the alleged funny shit if it means I also miss catching your cyber cooties.

There are easier ways to get a girl to spend 3 hours with you, ya know.
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Old 03-23-2009, 06:45 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
How would you feed the program to the chip? I assumed a personal computer in the scenario. With a personal computer, input devices are unrecognized until BIOS are loaded (which is, in fact, a mini-os "Basic Input/Output System"). Without any way to feed the program to the computer, how would you execute it?

I realize now the original post was spam, but now I'm curious =p.
It depends a lot on the particular device in question, but, generally, you would use whatever mechanism is available to program your binary code into the nonvolatile memory. There are a lot of mechanisms for doing that, a device programmer, JTAG, loader program built into the processor, etc. In the case of a personal computer you could replace the BIOS with whatever program you wanted that fits in the available memory.
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Old 03-25-2009, 01:22 AM   #15
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If I assume a PC, wouldn't any binary fed into memory while the machine is running, be executed immediately? Wouldn't you run into problems with the chip processing faster then instructions could be fed? Yes, I'm geeky and curious =p.
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:13 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
If I assume a PC, wouldn't any binary fed into memory while the machine is running, be executed immediately? Wouldn't you run into problems with the chip processing faster then instructions could be fed? Yes, I'm geeky and curious =p.
In general, no.

It depends a lot on what you are using to accomplish this.

If you are loading with a debugging tool, then generally, the processor is halted, and the debugging tool is loading directly into some memory device.

If you are loading via a serial port, ethernet, etc., then a loader program is running on the processor, and it is loading the program into some memory device, generally not in the same place that the loader is currently running from. There are literally dozens of different ways of accomplishing this. It doesn't really matter whether the underlying hardware is a PC, or a custom board with an entirely different processor. Basically, you would load up the binary image into a memory device, could be ram, could be flash, could be something else, then you would cause that binary image to be executed by changing the PC (Program Counter) register to point to it in some manner.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:32 PM   #17
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So your basically flipping the switches manually eh? That's pretty interesting, didn't know that was possible.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:14 AM   #18
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Generally when doing embedded programming, you write your code, compile and link it on a PC or other computer. Then you use one of any number of mechanisms to load the binary image you created into the target board, which could be a PC based system, or something entirely different. After that, when you power up the target system, it will be running the image you placed on the system.

For most embedded work, you actually code up the device drivers to talk directly to the devices on the board, as well as the actual application itself. They can be anything from very simple 4-bit processors used in very cheap toys or speaking greeting cards or such to multiprocessor systems. Often libraries are used for things like a TCP/IP stack, and often a real-time operating system is used to handle details like intertask communication, file systems and such.
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Old 03-28-2009, 01:22 AM   #19
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But doesn't make the program you wrote and embedded... the operating system?
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Old 03-28-2009, 04:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
But doesn't make the program you wrote and embedded... the operating system?
In a way, yes, but there's more to a "proper" operating system than just what loads the code. Here's a pretty complete discussion from EE Times. Not every "embedded" operating system will meet all of them (especially if the end-application doesn't need them - a microwave or garage door opener won't been data management, and will have a very simple UI (maybe just a button or two and light and LED in the case of a garage door opener)

definition of "operating system"

The computer's master control program. When the computer is turned on, a small "boot program" loads the operating system. Although additional modules may be loaded as needed, the main part, known as the "kernel" resides in memory at all times.

The operating system (OS) sets the standards for all application programs that run in the computer. Applications "talk to" the operating system for all user interface and file management operations. Also called an "executive" or "supervisor," an operating system performs the following functions listed below:

User Interface
All graphics based today, the user interface includes the windows, menus and method of interaction between you and the computer. Prior to graphical user interfaces (GUIs), all operation of the computer was performed by typing in commands. Not at all extinct, command-line interfaces are alive and well and provide an alternate way of running programs on all major operating systems.

Operating systems may support optional interfaces, both graphical and command line. Although the overwhelming majority of people work with the default interfaces, different "shells" offer variations of appearance and functionality.

Job Management
Job management controls the order and time in which programs are run and is more sophisticated in the mainframe environment where scheduling the daily work has always been routine. IBM's job control language (JCL) was developed decades ago. In a desktop environment, batch files can be written to perform a sequence of operations that can be scheduled to start at a given time.

Task Management
Multitasking, which is the ability to simultaneously execute multiple programs, is available in all operating systems today. Critical in the mainframe and server environment, applications can be prioritized to run faster or slower depending on their purpose. In the desktop world, multitasking is necessary for keeping several applications open at the same time so you can bounce back and forth among them. See multitasking.

Data Management
Data management keeps track of the data on disk, tape and optical storage devices. The application program deals with data by file name and a particular location within the file. The operating system's file system knows where that data are physically stored (which sectors on disk) and interaction between the application and operating system is through the programming interface. Whenever an application needs to read or write data, it makes a call to the operating system (see API).

Device Management
Device management controls peripheral devices by sending them commands in their own proprietary language. The software routine that knows how to deal with each device is called a "driver," and the OS requires drivers for the peripherals attached to the computer. When a new peripheral is added, that device's driver is installed into the operating system. See driver.
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Old 03-28-2009, 02:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by FafnerMorell View Post
In a way, yes, but there's more to a "proper" operating system than just what loads the code. Here's a pretty complete discussion from EE Times. Not every "embedded" operating system will meet all of them (especially if the end-application doesn't need them - a microwave or garage door opener won't been data management, and will have a very simple UI (maybe just a button or two and light and LED in the case of a garage door opener)
By this definition, the answer to my question is yes. We wrote a simple OS in one of my computer science classes that simply allowed you to input binary instructions.. but it was still an OS. An OS *may* have all those components, but those components are not required. For example, the chip that controls mixture, valve/spark timing, etc in your car has no user interface until a device is attached. The device has it's own chip to control the UI, therefore this simple computer's OS only has device/task managment. It's still the master program, and therefore the OS. When I worked at WSMR, we had machines that had no UI as well.. they only had input and output devices. You typed instructions on a keyboard, then output would go to a printer. The OS did, however, handle devices, tasks, etc.
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Old 03-29-2009, 08:02 AM   #22
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Yep, for an embedded system, that's pretty much what folks mean when they refer to the OS. Now, these days it's more common to see "major" OSes like Linux or Windows CE in small devices (say, MP3 players, cell phones or car navigation systems), but for a lot of stuff (like valve control), just the basics will suffice.
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Caeelar View Post
But doesn't make the program you wrote and embedded... the operating system?
Depends on what the program does really. Some of the embedded devices I've worked on had a one time programmable memory device that the binary image was placed in, no boot code, no ability to change the program without replacing the memory device. It did not multitask, it could not load applications, it just ran that one binary image.
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