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Old 11-28-2004, 11:58 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Shadera


Please note that I never made the suggestion that people who don't agree with me should leave. However, I do believe that the majority of the United States citizenry share my sentiments that if you don't love it, then leave it.

And I've also noted that you have NEVER agreed with anyone on these boards. You find something "wrong" with anyone else's sentiments regarding any type of topic. Sure must be tough carrying all that shit for brains between your ears. And your own vocabulary could use an overhaul.

Shadera
So not only are you misinformed, but as Ares pointed out, you're a bald-faced liar too. I really think you should consider my earlier suggestion- it would be the best thing for all of us.

I thought you said you were leaving btw? Flipflop?
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Old 11-28-2004, 01:28 PM   #27
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if the US history i learned was correct- most of the "first" settlers arriving in America were either religous factions seeking to escape from under the nose of the English state-church. OR persons seeking political asylum OR business opportunists getting in on the cheap land and labor available OR criminals.


And if you want to be practical our country was actually founded on the blood of Native Americans, and the French, and the Spanish, and the Portugese.... Conquest, War, Revolution. Taking up arms against those of differing opinions/cultures/religions/governments. Thats the basis for all of our freedom as i see it.

in Gunpowder we trust. Amen.
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Old 11-29-2004, 12:20 PM   #28
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Hello Shadera, nice to see you are still around, welcome to the "shit pit" we call "Steam Vent". Your hosts are Luri the Loser, Horm the Worm, Chuk the Rock and Flub a dub dub, with a large cast of lesser actors. I had to back off myself, it was lowering my IQ too much. Actually, Luri, Horm and Chuk care more about post count, but we like to make them think they are important. In reality, they couldn't pass a 3rd grade math test, but they know how to type.

Have fun!
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Old 11-29-2004, 12:40 PM   #29
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Old 11-29-2004, 12:52 PM   #30
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Default hmm

Ok, I'll bite.

Shadera you're a foolish, empty husk of a human being, bereft of any compassion for "non-believers," evidenced by your "love it or leave it" attitude in regards to your vision of a Christianity-based utopia. Thus labeling you a traitor to your own religion. Love and compassion for all eh?

Every American loves their country. Every single one. I love this country, you love this country, and so one. However, you seem to think that if one were to hate you and your misguided views of this country, that they hate the country. No, they just hate you and your seething ignorance.

I'll break it down a bit. I love my neighborhood. I hate the asshole that lives down the hill from me. I'm not going to move because this asshole pisses me off. However, if this asshole tells me to move because he hates me, I'll stay just to piss him off.

To finish it up,

We're not moving.

We love this country.

We hate your misguided views of this country.

Give up your dream of Christian utopia.

ta~
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Old 11-29-2004, 02:23 PM   #31
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Okay, I willingly "give up". I stand corrected on many issues that this thread has led into.

Pop always told me to never discuss religion or politics. He was right.

I surely didn't mean to come across as a bible thumpin' idiot, but that's what appears to have happened. I'll thump my bible in my own house from now on.

When one gets to be my age, we always think we are the only ones that are right. doh! I'd like to apologize for my ignorance and to apologize to any that I offended.
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Old 11-29-2004, 03:02 PM   #32
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Foust, you miss the whole point. Most Christians that I know do NOT want a "Christian Utopia" as you put it. Yes, there are a few that have that ideal, but most of us just want a society that has concrete values and doesn't always try to be "politically correct". I have no problem with the wide variety of faiths practiced in the United States. What I do have a problem with is when God or Faith is ridiculed, criticized or ostracized. Showing a religious symbol on "public" property does not constitute a violation of the Consitution. Mentioning God in a classroom doesn't either. The whole meaning of the Constitution is that the STATE shall not ENDORCE or ENFORCE a specific faith. No where does it have the power to abolish or hinder the practice of faith. We could use circular reasoning and say that a city not allowing a nativity scene in the park at Christmas endorces Atheism or Agnosticism. If a Jewish, or Christian or Buddist or Muslim or even a Satanist wants to display something in the park, it is public land and should be allowed per the Constitution, "the state shall make no law....regarding the practice of religion...."

Many on this board have criticized, ridiculed and flamed those of us who have faith. I read a saying this weekend, "Rudeness is a weak man's failed attempt at trying to be strong". I have been rude at times, I do admit. But I can't hold a candle to the likes of Horm, Bumb, Luri and others at being rude. I have often wondered why some of you like to rip into those who have Faith in God? Does it give you a false sense of superiority or do you truly, down deep, hate us? If so, then you do have a sad existance.
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Old 11-29-2004, 03:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Foust, you miss the whole point. Most Christians that I know do NOT want a "Christian Utopia" as you put it. Yes, there are a few that have that ideal, but most of us just want a society that has concrete values and doesn't always try to be "politically correct". I have no problem with the wide variety of faiths practiced in the United States. What I do have a problem with is when God or Faith is ridiculed, criticized or ostracized. Showing a religious symbol on "public" property does not constitute a violation of the Consitution. Mentioning God in a classroom doesn't either. The whole meaning of the Constitution is that the STATE shall not ENDORCE or ENFORCE a specific faith. No where does it have the power to abolish or hinder the practice of faith. We could use circular reasoning and say that a city not allowing a nativity scene in the park at Christmas endorces Atheism or Agnosticism. If a Jewish, or Christian or Buddist or Muslim or even a Satanist wants to display something in the park, it is public land and should be allowed per the Constitution, "the state shall make no law....regarding the practice of religion...."

Many on this board have criticized, ridiculed and flamed those of us who have faith. I read a saying this weekend, "Rudeness is a weak man's failed attempt at trying to be strong". I have been rude at times, I do admit. But I can't hold a candle to the likes of Horm, Bumb, Luri and others at being rude. I have often wondered why some of you like to rip into those who have Faith in God? Does it give you a false sense of superiority or do you truly, down deep, hate us? If so, then you do have a sad existance.

Your own posts suggest that you want a society with values based on Christianity, if not a society that is a Christian Utopia. What concrete values are America currently missing in law? We've got the murder, theft, injure set of laws. Seriously, what concrete values are missing, and why do you think all of America should support them?


You didn't mention me in the rude category (I do try not to be), but there's certainly plenty of reason for people to feel put upon by various Christian believers. I'm not sure about the park issue, but I don't see where one group pushing its religious symbols onto government buildings counts as something they should be allowed to do. Nativity scenes: knock yourself out on your own property. Mind you, I've never protested a religious decoration put up by the government yet, but I can see the problem, especially since every single one I've seen has been in the Christian theme.
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Old 11-29-2004, 03:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Shadera
However, I do believe that the majority of the United States citizenry share my sentiments that if you don't love it, then leave it.
No country in the world is stupid enough to accept an American.
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Old 11-29-2004, 10:56 PM   #35
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Foust, you miss the whole point. Most Christians that I know do NOT want a "Christian Utopia" as you put it. Yes, there are a few that have that ideal, but most of us just want a society that has concrete values and doesn't always try to be "politically correct". I have no problem with the wide variety of faiths practiced in the United States. What I do have a problem with is when God or Faith is ridiculed, criticized or ostracized. Showing a religious symbol on "public" property does not constitute a violation of the Consitution. Mentioning God in a classroom doesn't either. The whole meaning of the Constitution is that the STATE shall not ENDORCE or ENFORCE a specific faith. No where does it have the power to abolish or hinder the practice of faith. We could use circular reasoning and say that a city not allowing a nativity scene in the park at Christmas endorces Atheism or Agnosticism. If a Jewish, or Christian or Buddist or Muslim or even a Satanist wants to display something in the park, it is public land and should be allowed per the Constitution, "the state shall make no law....regarding the practice of religion...."

Many on this board have criticized, ridiculed and flamed those of us who have faith. I read a saying this weekend, "Rudeness is a weak man's failed attempt at trying to be strong". I have been rude at times, I do admit. But I can't hold a candle to the likes of Horm, Bumb, Luri and others at being rude. I have often wondered why some of you like to rip into those who have Faith in God? Does it give you a false sense of superiority or do you truly, down deep, hate us? If so, then you do have a sad existance.
Oye, hell of a quote.

Anyway. I agree with the PC bullshit. I'm quite sick and tired of that

However, concrete values differ so much between people it's freaky. There are concrete values, though. The intentional killing of another human being, the theft of property, vandalizing, assault, animal sacrfice, etc....all illegal.

Adopting the moral foundation of any religion is a bad thing. Also, religious symbols or scenes should not be displayed on goverment property, because someone will feel that they are giving money to a faith of which they don't belong without their own choice in the matter. Like it or not, you and I both know that there are people dumb enough to think like that.

I personally have no problem with religious symbolism as long as it does not force my involvement.

I understand that it's quite likely that most Christians don't want their little utopia, however, the christians that do want it seem to be the ones in power at the moment They're also the ones that get the publicity.

With the risk of derailing this thread even further...

abortions should always be "available"

homosexuals should be able to get married and get all the benefits they want

PETA members should be rounded up and fed to specially bred carnivorous dolphins

A-OK to Stem Cell research (both kinds!)

Legalize marijuana

Invest in hydrogen / electric cars

Expand imports on beer.

That is all.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:14 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Yes, there are a few that have that ideal, but most of us just want a society that has concrete values and doesn't always try to be "politically correct".
I agree that the "politically correct" movement is a joke. As for 'concrete' values, good luck with that. Every American has a different value system. It would be wrong for one group to impose their values on another one.


Showing a religious symbol on "public" property does not constitute a violation of the Consitution. Mentioning God in a classroom doesn't either. The whole meaning of the Constitution is that the STATE shall not ENDORCE or ENFORCE a specific faith.
Showing a religious symbol on public property is indeed ENDORCING that religion. How do you see it as not? If you got a Bush/Cheney sign in your front yard are you gonna say, "Hell no, I hate those bastards"?


We could use circular reasoning and say that a city not allowing a nativity scene in the park at Christmas endorces Atheism or Agnosticism. If a Jewish, or Christian or Buddist or Muslim or even a Satanist wants to display something in the park
No religion should have its views government endorced. I don't consider Atheism a religion as it is the exact opposite of religion. Even so, the government should not allow a sign in parks that says "God doesn't exist you losers".


it is public land and should be allowed per the Constitution
Public land. Meaning government property.
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:26 AM   #37
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Foust, with the exception to the abortion and homosexual statement, I agree with everything else you said.

Abortion has been argued into the ground and back about 20,352,235,973 times. Abortion is MURDER, and most would agree that MURDER is a "Concrete Value" and should be illegal. I am tired of arguing it.

Homosexuality is sexually deviant, tired of arguing that too.

Some of you have mentioned "Government Property" as if it is some separate entity. In the US, WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, damn it. Government property belongs to the people. With the exception of security issues such as the White House, Capitol, etc..., government property is accessible to the General Public. Having a Nativity Scene at a city park or me flying a Christian Flag at my camp in a National Forest should be allowed and protected by law.

The Government shall make NO LAW........read the Consitution, that is what is says. Making displaying a religious symbol in a park illegal is MAKING A LAW.
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:49 AM   #38
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I love when people nearing 2k posts criticize those of us with 4k+ for our posting frequency. Nothing like the smell of baked hypocrisy in the early afternoon.

If you and those like you didn't try to leverage your purported faith in a god to interfere with other people's rights your "faith" wouldn't be an issue for me IM. The height of irony is a racist, homophobic misogynist talking about his "concrete values."
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:11 AM   #39
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Just wondering when people are going to start raising hell about all the Christmas decorations and decorated Christian scenes in the White House. I would imagine all that's paid for with Government money.

Question for you people that don't consider yourself a Christian. Does that kind of stuff really offend you or is it just something else to bitch about? I'll have to say if seeing a Christian scene is really offensive to ya then you must really be thin skinned.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Caelie123
Just wondering when people are going to start raising hell about all the Christmas decorations and decorated Christian scenes in the White House. I would imagine all that's paid for with Government money.

Question for you people that don't consider yourself a Christian. Does that kind of stuff really offend you or is it just something else to bitch about? I'll have to say if seeing a Christian scene is really offensive to ya then you must really be thin skinned.
Does it offend me like watching elderly people have rough sex? Not really- I was brought up Christian so I'm used to misguided people setting up their Baby Jesus Action Figure playset each winter.

However, particularly with this administration, I find it to be a disturbing display of just how much the Christian right is interfering with democracy. We are not a theocracy and the flagrant endorsement of evangelical protestant christianity is shamefully wrong.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:55 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Abortion is MURDER, and most would agree that MURDER is a "Concrete Value" and should be illegal. I am tired of arguing it.
No one is advocating murder. The problem is not everyone sees all abortions as murder. Everyone draws the line at a different spot in the pregnancy. As I've said before, I won't ever stand for someone telling me that it is murder at the moment of conception and I also won't stand for someone telling me that it is not murder at 6+ months. I believe abortion should remain legal but should be restricted to the first trimester of pregnancy. The numbers someone posted a while back said that 90% of abortions were first term. So currently, nearly 10% of abortions could be considered murder to me.


Homosexuality is sexually deviant, tired of arguing that too.
What is deviant is in the eye of the beholder. I'm tired of arguing that too.


Some of you have mentioned "Government Property" as if it is some separate entity. In the US, WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, damn it. Government property belongs to the people. With the exception of security issues such as the White House, Capitol, etc..., government property is accessible to the General Public.
Since it belongs to me, I think I'll go build a house in my local park and see how they like that. The main point is government money should not be spent on religion. If the government starts spending money on religion, religious institutions should start getting taxed out the ass. Oh, I forgot, the guy you voted for wants to keep it so U.S. businesses don't have to pay taxes as it is. They would rather get money from ideas such as Chuk's to take away kids' school buses and lunches.


Originally Posted by Caelie123
Just wondering when people are going to start raising hell about all the Christmas decorations and decorated Christian scenes in the White House. I would imagine all that's paid for with Government money.

Question for you people that don't consider yourself a Christian. Does that kind of stuff really offend you or is it just something else to bitch about? I'll have to say if seeing a Christian scene is really offensive to ya then you must really be thin skinned.
No, Christmas displays don't really offend me. The current Christmas in this nation is much more of a commercial one than a religious one. Still think it is a waste of money by the government however. Nothing new.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:55 AM   #42
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Thanks Hormadrune, I was just wondering. Christmas scenes, Ten Commandments and the likes have been around in Government places for decades and nobody seemed to have a problem with those things until here recently. By recently, I mean the last 8 or so years.

I just fail to see what the big deal is. Fortunately the city hall and county courthouse where I live are still decorated each year (outside, I'm not sure about the inside) with manger scenes and the whole 9 yards. They have special things for the kids where they can roast marshmellows or make smores. What some people view as offensive, I guess I just view as tradition.
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Old 11-30-2004, 12:01 PM   #43
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I'm tired of hearing "because its traditon!" spouted all the time. Yeah, traditions are nice, but its not like they are super important though. Some people act like its a fucking tragedy when certain traditions are trampled on.
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Old 11-30-2004, 12:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Caelie123
Thanks Hormadrune, I was just wondering. Christmas scenes, Ten Commandments and the likes have been around in Government places for decades and nobody seemed to have a problem with those things until here recently. By recently, I mean the last 8 or so years.
We've gotten rid of lots of traditions that the government endorsed, even if tacitly. Segregated schools, women without voting rights, slavery, and other such relics of darker times were all traditions at one point. I'm not saying I think government sponsored manger-scenes are the equivalent of slavery, I'm simply saying that progress can and will happen- at the expense of the traditions of special interest groups.

Honestly though, if it weren't for all the meddling that some misguided christians do on "behalf" of their faith I wouldn't care much at all about the displays. But when we have arch-conservative bible-thumpers trying to hijack the nation and grossly restrict people's rights, it rubs me entirely the wrong way.
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Old 11-30-2004, 12:14 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Heretic
I'm tired of hearing "because its traditon!" spouted all the time.
I could really care less if they stoped with the traditional decorating of City Hall or the Courthouse. I was just pointing out that where some may view this as offensive, I view it as tradition. I believe most could care less one way or the other, christians or not. I also believe there's a handful of nutcases on each side that will scream about it being there or scream if they stopped it. I don't think it's the majority of either.
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:12 PM   #46
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Wow, 1665 posts is nearing 2000! Glad you pointed that out Horm. I have been averaging 10 posts a week or so the past month, I should be at 2000 by, say August, 2005 or so.

You all need to understand, one of the points I am trying to make here is that we have a diversity of faith in this country, and that is a good thing.

Someone pointed out, "why not build a house on public land". Well, what do you think Miners, Cattle Ranchers, Loggers do? Cattle Ranchers get to pay a pittance "grazing fee" so we get to all hike in Cow Shit in the National Forests. Public land is being used for private business! Cattle cause erosion, destroy vegetation and leave a mess. The ranchers dig water "tanks" to water the cattle, leave salt blocks out that kill all plant matter around them, and use pick up trucks, helicopters, motorcycles, etc.. to round up the cattle. So, to answer your question, there is more done on public land than building a house.
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:45 PM   #47
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Where is this happening on public land? Especially in National Forests.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Caelie123
Just wondering when people are going to start raising hell about all the Christmas decorations and decorated Christian scenes in the White House. I would imagine all that's paid for with Government money.

Question for you people that don't consider yourself a Christian. Does that kind of stuff really offend you or is it just something else to bitch about? I'll have to say if seeing a Christian scene is really offensive to ya then you must really be thin skinned.


DING! I think we have a winner !
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Shadera
Question for you people that don't consider yourself a Christian. Does that kind of stuff really offend you or is it just something else to bitch about? I'll have to say if seeing a Christian scene is really offensive to ya then you must really be thin skinned.
..:: End Quote ::..
DING! I think we have a winner !

Then you two have no objections to Muslim, Satanist, Scientologist, etc. displays as well?
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:49 PM   #50
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Modern day Christmas has about as much to do with Christianity as the ocean has bears.

Hell, Christmas trees originated as a pagan ritual for...i think it was their new year, but I'm not sure.
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