Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2004, 07:58 PM   #251
Oumadar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 247
Send a message via MSN to Oumadar
Originally Posted by Brigiid
Can you show me where it says that creation didn't happen?

And do you see yet how utterly futile this conversation is?
Valves, we have one valve that splits off into two, lungs and stomach, worms have the same thing!

I'm sure if God designed us he would have made two seperate valves, unless God enjoys watching people choke to death.
__________________
Oumadar Greatness
Oumadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 08:38 PM   #252
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,566
God was an astronaut, lets leave it at that.
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 08:42 PM   #253
Brigiid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,879
Send a message via AIM to Brigiid
Originally Posted by Gauche
As for proof where creation didn't happen? Astronomy / astrophysics, biology, genetics, geology, chemistry. At least, all those show that the Earth is not about 6000 years old, that humans evolved from other life forms, that the universe isn't 6000 years old, that Genesis can't be taken literally.
That's proof that creation never happened? Because the world isn't 6000 years old? Where have I ever said that I believed that everything in the Bible was true or that the earth (or universe) was 6000 years old? That's right, I haven't. Just because the processes/sciences you listed say the earth isn't 6000 years old doesn't mean that anyone's proven that creation didn't happen. Try again.


Originally Posted by Oumadar
I'm sure if God designed us he would have made two seperate valves, unless God enjoys watching people choke to death.
I seriously hope you're just kidding here. Knowing you, you probably are, but then again...
__________________
Meh.
Brigiid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 08:49 PM   #254
Gauche
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Brigiid
That's proof that creation never happened? Because the world isn't 6000 years old? Where have I ever said that I believed that everything in the Bible was true or that the earth (or universe) was 6000 years old? That's right, I haven't. Just because the processes/sciences you listed say the earth isn't 6000 years old doesn't mean that anyone's proven that creation didn't happen. Try again.

..:: Quoting Oumadar ::..
I'm sure if God designed us he would have made two seperate valves, unless God enjoys watching people choke to death.
..:: End Quote ::..

I seriously hope you're just kidding here. Knowing you, you probably are, but then again...

Then you'll have to define what you mean by creation, because you've spent a great deal of time arguing that Creationism is an equally valid theory to evolution. If you don't ever define your terms, and you never seem to, then it's pretty impossible to present you evidence against your undefined creation.


As for Oumadar, he's quite correct. There's no apparent reason for the sloppy design of our air and food / drink pipes. About the only reason you could say for the two to mix would be because our sinuses are so badly designed that our noses clog and make breathing difficult. Even then there's no excuse for food to be able to enter our lungs.
Gauche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 08:58 PM   #255
Brigiid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,879
Send a message via AIM to Brigiid
Yeah, there's a little structure called an epiglottis designed to keep that from happening. I guess if God were real, he'd have routed your respiratory tract through your kneecap or something to make it idiotproof.

Seriously, you're going to say that God can't be real because he didn't create an error-proof, idiot-proof, accident-proof existence for you? The fact that you've got a planet to live on, air to breathe, a body to move around with, and an environment capable of supporting you isn't enough? You've got to have every last detail taken care of for you so you can just live in utopia, otherwise *poof* God doesn't exit? Creation can't exist?

All of the things that do work in this world, and you'd discount their value just because they aren't perfect? WTF?
__________________
Meh.
Brigiid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 09:04 PM   #256
Gauche
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Brigiid
Yeah, there's a little structure called an epiglottis designed to keep that from happening. I guess if God were real, he'd have routed your respiratory tract through your kneecap or something to make it idiotproof.

Seriously, you're going to say that God can't be real because he didn't create an error-proof, idiot-proof, accident-proof existence for you? The fact that you've got a planet to live on, air to breathe, a body to move around with, and an environment capable of supporting you isn't enough? You've got to have every last detail taken care of for you so you can just live in utopia, otherwise *poof* God doesn't exit? Creation can't exist?

All of the things that do work in this world, and you'd discount their value just because they aren't perfect? WTF?

So this perfect, all knowing, all powerful God can't design humans decently? Yet we are made in His image? I don't discount the value of the things that work, but I don't claim that a perfect God designed everything either.

Also, if you could please define what you mean by creation above, it would help a lot for me to present arguments that match what you think creation is.
Gauche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 09:22 PM   #257
Brigiid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,879
Send a message via AIM to Brigiid
Originally Posted by Gauche
So this perfect, all knowing, all powerful God can't design humans decently?
You're putting words into my mouth, here. I haven't said that the person/being/whatever that created life as we know it was all-powerful or all-knowing. You made that up.

The epiglottis is designed to keep these two structures from interfering with each other. There was a plan there. The fact that it wasn't created to account for every random instance in life where something might go wrong doesn't mean there wasn't an intelligent design.


Originally Posted by Gauche
Also, if you could please define what you mean by creation above, it would help a lot for me to present arguments that match what you think creation is.
What do you mean? How many definitions of creation do you think there are?
__________________
Meh.
Brigiid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 09:59 PM   #258
Heretic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,762
You claimed to not believe in the creation of Genesis. He means your views on how creation happened. Who was our creator(s)? What were they like? How much power/wisdom did they have? When did it happen? Etc.
__________________
bg85 on another forum:
"i always refer to myself as a "missionary agnostic." that is, not only do i not know shit about shit, but i'm going to try and convince you that you don't know shit about shit either and there's no way for you to know shit about shit."

Heretic
Heretic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 10:00 PM   #259
Ariochx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 468
Originally Posted by Brigiid
The epiglottis is designed to keep these two structures from interfering with each other. There was a plan there.
Using the Epiglottis to prove Gods existence???


Have you wondered why this God made the human Appendix such a terribly infection-prone organ? Bad design eh? Must have cost millions of lives.

See how lame that is? That arguement can be played by both sides Brigiid.

Of course God could always do a mass recall like the 70's Ford Pinto. A miraculous fix for our defective appendix, or in time the human body might adapt and evolve to the point that the gene for the defective appendix disappears, or even corrects itself.
__________________
Ariochx Everstout
Lord Protector of Underfoot
Ariochx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 10:04 PM   #260
Gauche
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Brigiid
You're putting words into my mouth, here. I haven't said that the person/being/whatever that created life as we know it was all-powerful or all-knowing. You made that up.

The epiglottis is designed to keep these two structures from interfering with each other. There was a plan there. The fact that it wasn't created to account for every random instance in life where something might go wrong doesn't mean there wasn't an intelligent design.

Fine. A lot of Christians think their God is all knowing and all poweful. If he can make mistakes, then I guess we can attribute life to him. The only problem is, I think I could design a better breathing system with a bit of work. I'm pretty sure there are doctors and biologists who could. Outside breathing tubes, at the very least I doubt I'd include an appendix that explodes and kills people on occasion (less since surgery became common). I'm sure by myself I couldn't design a better human easily, but I feel fairly confident a NASA like collection of doctors and scientists could (design, not build yet). That begs the question of the level of competency of God.



Originally Posted by Brigiid
What do you mean? How many definitions of creation do you think there are?
Well, Brigiid, you yourself have covered several ideas. So have others. Macroevolution or, origin of life on Earth, or creation of the universe? Young Earth Creationism? Intelligent Design? Old Earth Creationism? Hindu mythos? Muslim creation? Greek pantheon? Zooroastrianism? Australian Aboriginal? Aztec? Mayan? etc etc etc etc?

..:: Quoting Brigiid ::..
Can you show me where it says that creation didn't happen?
..:: Quoting Gauche ::..
Also, if you could please define what you mean by creation above, it would help a lot for me to present arguments that match what you think creation is.
..:: End Quote ::..

What do you mean by creation?
Gauche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 10:06 PM   #261
Heretic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,762
Brigiid, I must admit it is refreshing to have someone have a creationist view that doesn't rely on the Bible. To my understanding your viewpoint rests on the theory of intelligent design. I too see many examples of things just 'too good to be true'. However, unlike you, I believe that it is just processes that science does not yet understand. I feel like believing in a creator(s) is just passing the buck and not trying to figure them out ourselves.
__________________
bg85 on another forum:
"i always refer to myself as a "missionary agnostic." that is, not only do i not know shit about shit, but i'm going to try and convince you that you don't know shit about shit either and there's no way for you to know shit about shit."

Heretic
Heretic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 10:10 PM   #262
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,897
Originally Posted by Heretic
Brigiid, I must admit it is refreshing to have someone have a creationist view that doesn't rely on the Bible. To my understanding your viewpoint rests on the theory of intelligent design. I too see many examples of things just 'too good to be true'. However, unlike you, I believe that it is just processes that science does not yet understand. I feel like believing in a creator(s) is just passing the buck and not trying to figure them out ourselves.
I'm unconvinced. She has a penchant for talking about god as "He" with a capital H. I'm inclined to think she's just a closet JHC-fangrrrl.
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | sp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | l
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 05:13 AM   #263
Oumadar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 247
Send a message via MSN to Oumadar
Originally Posted by Brigiid
Yeah, there's a little structure called an epiglottis designed to keep that from happening. I guess if God were real, he'd have routed your respiratory tract through your kneecap or something to make it idiotproof.

Seriously, you're going to say that God can't be real because he didn't create an error-proof, idiot-proof, accident-proof existence for you? The fact that you've got a planet to live on, air to breathe, a body to move around with, and an environment capable of supporting you isn't enough? You've got to have every last detail taken care of for you so you can just live in utopia, otherwise *poof* God doesn't exit? Creation can't exist?

All of the things that do work in this world, and you'd discount their value just because they aren't perfect? WTF?
Theres shit tons of evidence for evolution, yet so little for creationism. I'm not bitching about a defect, you asked for proof of evolution and I gave it to ya, the tube system is exactly the same as worms that scuttle around and live in the earth. Was God to damn lazy to design a seperate system for us? or is it possible that we actually evolved over millions of years?

Also, the epiglottis is a fragile system that flips back and forth, ever heard the saying 'went down to wrong tube'?
__________________
Oumadar Greatness
Oumadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 09:59 PM   #264
Luky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 287
Not gonna read all the pages here......

But - /soapbox on

You know, there was a time when those who were Christian were among the leading thinkers of their time. Christians who stuidied philosophy, mathematics, science, the arts, humanties.

It is quite ironic that science has suceeded in making God a and faith a purely "personal" thing that cannot be argued or proven, when christian thinkers used to use science as a way to understand the world that God created for us to dwell in.

It is imo, a direct result of the intellectually lazy, post modern, relativistic culture we now live in. It seems people everywhere are stupid sheep.

Many accept evolution to be fact - 100% fact - when it is - still - called the theory of evolution. They do this why? Because someone told them it was so. The Teachers or whoever presented their arguments and their evidence and then said - this is so. And so to the normal person growing up today - evolution is fact. They do not apply their brains to the theory very much, they do not really investigate WHY it is accepted as fact or even consider if it should be.... it simply IS.

In this same vein, there are lazy minded Christians who believe in creation and in God, but cannot say why they believe, and yet when asked to defend their faith or explain something, they fall back on well - the bible says so! or my pastor told me! or my mom taught me! or even - i read it in a book!


My point?


Not all Christians are stupid sheep who cannot have a coherent conversation or argument regarding their beliefs. Nor is it biblical to be so..... All christians should be able to defend their beliefs and faith, using reason. in other words, using their minds.

So, stop the Christian bashing here. You cannot lump all of us together. Nor can you lump all of muslims together or all atheists either!

If you think there are not Christains who intellectually apply themselves to the questions of evolution and other worldly matters with precision and reason, then I encourage you to take a look at JP Morgan, CS Lewis, Watchman Nee, and (cant recall the author) Darwin's Black Box.

Then apply YOUR minds, and quit following the other sheep blindly.

For the record, faith cannot be achieved without reason.
__________________
Luky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 10:36 PM   #265
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,897
So then Lukaria, why do you believe in the fallacy of creationism? After all, if you're going to bash other's for their beliefs, you can at least share yours?

Besides, it'll almost surely be good for a laugh or ten.

Also, I'm inclined to think religious faith is the absence of reason. Your faith is in reality a state of suspended disbelief. How's that for irony?
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | sp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | l
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 10:37 PM   #266
Gauche
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Luky
Not gonna read all the pages here......

But - /soapbox on

You know, there was a time when those who were Christian were among the leading thinkers of their time. Christians who stuidied philosophy, mathematics, science, the arts, humanties.

It is quite ironic that science has suceeded in making God a and faith a purely "personal" thing that cannot be argued or proven, when christian thinkers used to use science as a way to understand the world that God created for us to dwell in.

It is imo, a direct result of the intellectually lazy, post modern, relativistic culture we now live in. It seems people everywhere are stupid sheep.

Many accept evolution to be fact - 100% fact - when it is - still - called the theory of evolution. They do this why? Because someone told them it was so. The Teachers or whoever presented their arguments and their evidence and then said - this is so. And so to the normal person growing up today - evolution is fact. They do not apply their brains to the theory very much, they do not really investigate WHY it is accepted as fact or even consider if it should be.... it simply IS.

In this same vein, there are lazy minded Christians who believe in creation and in God, but cannot say why they believe, and yet when asked to defend their faith or explain something, they fall back on well - the bible says so! or my pastor told me! or my mom taught me! or even - i read it in a book!


My point?


Not all Christians are stupid sheep who cannot have a coherent conversation or argument regarding their beliefs. Nor is it biblical to be so..... All christians should be able to defend their beliefs and faith, using reason. in other words, using their minds.

So, stop the Christian bashing here. You cannot lump all of us together. Nor can you lump all of muslims together or all atheists either!

If you think there are not Christains who intellectually apply themselves to the questions of evolution and other worldly matters with precision and reason, then I encourage you to take a look at JP Morgan, CS Lewis, Watchman Nee, and (cant recall the author) Darwin's Black Box.

Then apply YOUR minds, and quit following the other sheep blindly.

For the record, faith cannot be achieved without reason.

Well I will agree that most Western scientists used to be good Christians who in fact looked at the world for proof of God's existence. Nowadays there are still many good Christians who are scientists, but there are few who attempt to justify the bible with nature. Meanwhile, there seems to be an emphasis on faith as opposed to reason for many devout religious people. However it's questionable whether this is a change from the past, considering, for example only, that most people used to be preached to in a language they didn't understand (Latin) and had no access to a copy of the Bible.

I haven't found very good arguments in the Christian apologists I've read, but I applaud the effort anyway. (C.S. Lewis, for example, while heavily touted as a great thinker, struck me otherwise, although I liked his fiction.)

I feel I must argue with you about faith and reason. Faith is by definition I thought belief with a lack of proof. Whether logical proof counts is another matter. As an aside, I was always confused by the disparity between people claiming faith was the way while simultaneously mentioning miracles, aka proofs.

However, I concur that most people don't really examine what they believe or why. When I was younger I believed in a God even though I wasn't supposed to read the Bible that described the God I was believing in. Ironically, studying the Bible was what led me to dismiss the religion, although I tried to maintain a belief in a God despite that. Most people don't seem to be willing to take the time to really think about their beliefs, alas, even if it's the most important thing one could do philosophically.
Gauche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 10:53 PM   #267
AresProphet
Priest of Hiroshima
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,932
Send a message via MSN to AresProphet
I think the problem was more that, as science progressed and became more precise, the "Christian leaders" realized that their belief systems camne into question by the evidence that came to light. Gradually, secular thinkers took over because they actually had something to gain (politically) from science, but religion only lost ground.

And now we're at a point where it's the religious who most want any perceived critical discussion of their beliefs taken out of schools, because they can't get their religion put into a science class. It doesn't belong there, just as evolution wouldn't belong in a class on religion.

What do Christians have to gain? More converts to a view of Earth's history that has ZERO supporting evidence? Evolution isn't trying to persuade someone that God doesn't exist. It's only encouraging critical thinking in two key areas: that reductionism can be used to understand how a process works, and that evolutionary theory (actually a separate beast entirely from the theory that man is an evolved creature) can explain all sorts of phenomenon outside of biology. It's a process, not a conclusion.


Luky, I understand there are some Christian authors out there who have very well thought-out views. You chose one very unfortuante example: C.S. Lewis. Are you familiar with Mere Christianity? His entire premise in that book is flawed, from the first chapter. It is glaringly obvious to anyone who thinks critically about the "Argument from design." I won't go into it, but if you want me to, I will.

That aside, it's still the same argument presented at a different angle, no matter which creationist author you read: the world is complex, and complex things have designers, so the world is designed. It's a logical fallacy: there can be apparent design without a designer.

I am not, sadly, familiar with Darwin's Black Box. I've meant to pick it up, and I don't know for sure, but supposedly it's a biochemist's perspective on the issue. I'd be very startled (and, to be honest, pleasantly surprised) if it was an argument other than the Argument From Design.

And as far as Christian-bashing goes: I try not to do it too much, but it's sort of inevitable. They're the loudest and largest opposition. If w're going to make any headway, we might as well start with them


Just so you know, I understand that we are about as far apart on the spectrum as we can get. Even so, you probably are the poster I respect most on these boards, because you don't just jump in and flame. You may be headed in the wrong direction, but at least you've got reasons for doing so
__________________
One of the wonders of the world is going down
It's going down I know
It's one of the blunders of the world that no-one cares
No-one cares enough


Attachment 181
AresProphet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 11:20 PM   #268
Gauche
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
The Black Box book is an argument for Intelligent Design - "irreducible complexity" and such. It's a reasonable idea on the surface, but isn't supportable upon closer examination. It's a shame, really, as I'd like to file a list of complaints regarding both human design and many of the choices of said designer. Fleas, for example, while they may be necessary to the designer, strike me as an unneeded creation. Gnats, mosquitos, cockroaches, many hornets, ants, tapeworms, poisonous spiders, poisonous snakes, and more can all be added to the list of annoying creations that I would like revised or removed.

While we're revising things, cosmetic improvements suggests that males get hair that sticks around throughout their lives, while women seem to want larger breasts. The males also seem to want larger penises that never get soft, judging by the prevalence of spam, so the committee should have a look at that as well.


I don't believe in bashing Christians or most any religion. I do feel the urge to attack some of the ideas that religious people put forward, most especially when they don't seem to have applied logic or much thought to their words. It's even worse when they ignore what you say that contradicts what THEY think YOUR argument is. Everybody can fall into that trap a little, but it's frustrating to try to discuss a subject when the other side won't even argue against your views but instead some straw man they won't let go of.
Gauche is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:07 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.