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Old 11-30-2004, 03:11 PM   #1
Heretic
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Default Appeals court backs schools that bar military recruiters

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...cruiters_x.htm

PHILADELPHIA (AP) Colleges and universities can ban military recruiters from campus without fear of losing federal money, an appeals court has ruled.

The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday struck down a decade-old federal law known as the Solomon Amendment, saying it infringed on the free speech rights of law schools that had sought to limit on-campus recruiting in response to the military's ban on homosexuals.

Ruling in a lawsuit brought by a coalition of 25 law schools around the country, a three-judge panel said that the government's threat to yank funding amounted to compelling the schools to take part in speech they didn't agree with.

"While no doubt military lawyers are critical to the efficient operation of the armed forces, mere incantation of the need for legal talent cannot override a clear First Amendment impairment," the court wrote.

The judges added that the law may have had the unintended effect of hampering recruiting by engendering ill-will among potential recruits.

By a 2-1 vote, the panel overturned an earlier decision by a federal judge that the people challenging the law were unlikely to prevail at trial.

The ruling may affect all institutions of higher learning, but the case revolved around law schools because most had developed policies prohibiting discrimination by on-campus groups on the basis of sexual orientation.

Monday's ruling represented the first time a court had enjoined the government from enforcing the law.

The Justice Department, which represented the government in the case, said it was examining the decision and reviewing its appeal options.

"The United States continues to believe that the Solomon Amendment is constitutional. As we argued in our brief, we believe that Congress may deny federal funds to universities which discriminate and may act to protect the men and women of our armed forces in their ability to recruit Americans who wish to join them in serving our country," the agency said in a statement.

One judge on the panel wrote a stinging dissent. Judge Ruggero John Aldisert said he was personally disturbed that law schools would, "as an academic exercise," ignore the consequences a recruiting ban would have on the military's ability to compete with well-heeled law firms for young talent.

"They obviously do not desire that our men and women in the armed services, all members of a closed society, obtain optimum justice in military courts with the best-trained lawyers and judges," Aldisert said.

He said he disagreed with plaintiffs who argued that the schools were being asked to violate their own anti-discrimination policies by welcoming recruiters who won't take openly gay men and women.

"We cannot conclude that the mere presence of a uniformed military recruiter permits or compels the inference that a law school's anti-discrimination policy is violated," Aldisert said. "The subjective idiosyncratic impressions of some law students, some professors, or some anti-war protesters are not the test. What we know as men and women we cannot forget as judges."

The two-judge majority based its decision in part on an earlier Supreme Court ruling that the Boy Scouts of America could bar homosexuals from becoming scouts or troop leaders.

The court reasoned that if the Boy Scouts could legally reject gays because it had a core belief that homosexuality is illegitimate behavior, then other institutions could impose an opposite type of restriction if it had a core value that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is wrong.

"The court understood that if bigots have a First Amendment right to exclude gays, then enlightened institutions have a right to exclude bigots," said E. Joshua Rosenkranz, a lawyer for The Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights, which was the lead plaintiff in the suit.
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:15 PM   #2
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An interesting decision to be sure, and one that will probably get appealed to the whole 3rd Circuit and will probably end up in the SC.
Not sure about the ruling myself, but leaning towards applauding it as I find the military stance on homosexuality abhorrent.
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:51 PM   #3
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thats bullshit
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:36 PM   #4
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Not sure about the ruling myself, but leaning towards applauding it as I find the military stance on homosexuality abhorrent
.

Practical, effective policy is tailored around the beliefs and opinions of the majority, in ANY group, be it the country, a Fortune 500 company, or the U.S. military. I don't find the military's stance on homosexuals particularly visionary, or even handed myself, but it is based in good reason.

Q: Who makes up the greater part of our military?

A: Young men and women from usually poor, usually conservative or Christian upbringings. It is generally either young kids from the midwest and bible belt who join as an opt out of spending their life working the family farm, or young kids from the inner city who have no realistic shot at college and don't want to deal drugs or get shot by someone who is.

In both cases these people are pretty resoundingly anti-gay. Why on earth would anyone with half a brain try to force the young men and women who have decided to volunteer and risk their lives, to forcibly interact with a group that they neither understand or sympathize with?

Sure, you have a few dozen, lets even go as far as to say a few hundred openly gay people who won't be allowed to fight for their country, but at what greater cost if they were allowed? You don't inject a few people into a situation intentionally when it will disrupt the good order and discipline of the majority.

On a side note, as for openly gay people, why the hell should I or any military personnel, or for that matter, anyone at all be, forced to hear about their sexual preferences? If I talk about having sex with my wife at work, I risk being sent to HR for inappropriate behaviour, but just last month GLOBAL (a gay and lesbian workplace advocacy group) had a luncheon and rally if you will at my place of work. How is this appropriate? I could frankly care less what 2 consenting people do off work at their own home, but when you force me to accept it like this, all you do is raise my hackles.

As for the issue at hand, I don't think it is this ruling which is the problem, I feel the real problem lies with the extreme liberal bias our secondary education schools are forcing on our kids. If it wasn't for the fact that is almost impossible to graduate any college in this nation without being brain-washed by the leftist teachers, (a good portion of which became teachers to legally dodge the Vietnam draft) the military wouldn't be so hard pressed to recruit. And if the military wants more/better lawyers they should pay competitively with the private sector.

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Old 11-30-2004, 10:40 PM   #5
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As a pre-law student Wulf, who knows a lot of lawyers (yes I was raised around Satan's kin), your last sentence is the absolute truth. Better pay would attract many more good legal students to the military.

As far as not forcing it down the military's throat to be around gays, well, I did state that I find it personally abhorrent, not really saying others have to, but thats my mind.
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:47 PM   #6
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The military's gay policy is fairly practical, but then so was segregation. And undoing segregation caused a lot of upheavals that are still visible 50 years later. Actually, looking at the all-black military groups that were created during WW2, I think the same thing should be done for the gays. They couldn't get away with that today, I imagine, but I'd enjoy watching the movie made years later (like the one about the black squadron). Especially if they made a stereotypically camp version!
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Old 11-30-2004, 10:57 PM   #7
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I think the Solomon law is absurd and I'd like to see it changed, but I don't know that it's unconstitutional really. Interesting ruling. Honestly though, I can't imagine many if any from the top law schools go into the military. That's a lot of coin to drop on an education only to get paid the peanuts military lawyers must get.

As for gays in the military I have no problem irking a few ignorant rednecks who think all gay people are out to anally rape them. Fuck them and their homophobia. Protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority is part of what has made this country great at numerous times in its history. This should be one of those times.

And hell, if some gay dude wants to fight for his country- especially at this point in its history- I'm certainly not gonna tell him he shouldn't be able to because PFC Cletus McSlackjaw can't overcome his ridonkulous suhthuhn baptist mindfucking.

Oh, and Wulfhere, you're an idiot. Did GLOBAL come in and talk about sexual techniques that gay people use? I doubt it. They were probably there to attempt to educate ignorant fuckstains like you that discriminating against gays is a shitty thing to do.

Also, I call bullshit- how bout some links proving "a good portion" of current college professors became teachers to duck out of military service.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:03 PM   #8
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Oh, and Wulfhere, you're an idiot. Did GLOBAL come in and talk about sexual techniques that gay people use? I doubt it. They were probably there to attempt to educate ignorant fuckstains like you that discriminating against gays is a shitty thing to do.
I am sorry I discriminated against you Homodrone, you may return to your ass-fucking ways with the knowledge that I feel bad that you are gay.

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Old 11-30-2004, 11:04 PM   #9
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In both cases these people are pretty resoundingly anti-gay. Why on earth would anyone with half a brain try to force the young men and women who have decided to volunteer and risk their lives, to forcibly interact with a group that they neither understand or sympathize with?
Cuz that's a good part of what life is all about... learning to get along with people who are absolutely nothing like you.

We all gotta grow up sometime.
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
I am sorry I discriminated against you Homodrone, you may return to your ass-fucking ways with the knowledge that I feel bad that you are gay.

Wulf
Yes, by all means, get your misdirected anger out. Care to address the point or are you too busy making sure we all know what an ubermensch you are?

I'm curious what we'll find. Are you the "latent self-loathing closeted gay guy" homophobe or the "my parents were ignorant cretins too- I learned it by watching you Dad!" homophobe? Or maybe a different variety- sadly your misguided kind comes in many types.
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:06 AM   #11
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I'm curious what we'll find. Are you the "latent self-loathing closeted gay guy" homophobe or the "my parents were ignorant cretins too- I learned it by watching you Dad!" homophobe? Or maybe a different variety- sadly your misguided kind comes in many types.
Or maybe the "I don't like the gay activist movement, I feel that every person should be able to live as they want, until they try to force me to validate or accept their lifestyle as morally acceptable when I feel it isn't, and some ignorant little turd like Hormodrone who has no practical life experience except what his college professors taught him to regurgitate back at people tells me my way is intolerant, and I have to be tolerant of his intolerance of me."

By the way fuckstick, I already addressed the point of the post, if you weren't too busy jerking off to your own replies and fervently looking for someone to flame every chance you get, you might have seen that in my first reply.

Isn't it funny how a post can stay semi intelligent and civil until you come in here and start showing all us poor unenlightened people what true tolerance is really like? Why don't you act like someone who is over 14 for a change and try to reply to a post in a semi literate way without insulting or attacking the character of people who reply and you happen to disagree with?

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Old 12-01-2004, 12:43 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
Isn't it funny how a post can stay semi intelligent and civil until you come in here and start showing all us poor unenlightened people what true tolerance is really like? Why don't you act like someone who is over 14 for a change and try to reply to a post in a semi literate way without insulting or attacking the character of people who reply and you happen to disagree with?

Wulf

Wulfhere, you might want to not respond in kind if you're attempting to take the maturity moral high-ground. Otherwise, have at each other.
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:47 AM   #13
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Also, I call bullshit- how bout some links proving "a good portion" of current college professors became teachers to duck out of military service.
How about this one?

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/teacher/curriculum/chap15.htm


Many young men went to college solely to escape the draftsurveys indicate that male college enrollment averaged 6-7 percent higher than normal because of the draft. Men moved into teaching. In 1968, the year New York City draft boards confirmed that all full-time teachers qualified for deferments, the city's board of education received 20,000 more applications for teachers' licenses than the year before.
Or this one, you should really love it since it comes right from Schumer's mouth.

http://schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR00039.html

Schumer predicted that the crisis will get worse as we move into the 21st century and the kinds of people who became teachers in the past choose different professions now. Many of today's most senior teachers chose the teaching profession in the 1940s and 1950s because they were seeking stable employment following the Great Depression. Many male teachers in their 50s today opted to become teachers as a way to avoid the Vietnam draft.
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:50 AM   #14
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Wulfhere, you might want to not respond in kind if you're attempting to take the maturity moral high-ground. Otherwise, have at each other.
Gauche, I was just trying to make the point that a post usually stays reasonably civil until Horm comes in hurling insults and spewing filth, it brings out the worst in a lot of us, wasn't trying to claim I was morally superior, just that when he enters the scene he has a tendency to ruffle people's feathers and drag them down to his level.

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Old 12-01-2004, 01:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
Gauche, I was just trying to make the point that a post usually stays reasonably civil until Horm comes in hurling insults and spewing filth, it brings out the worst in a lot of us, wasn't trying to claim I was morally superior, just that when he enters the scene he has a tendency to ruffle people's feathers and drag them down to his level.

Wulf

Fair enough. It seemed otherwise to me. I oppose your basic views on homosexuals but I do try to keep my posts civil most of the time.
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Old 12-01-2004, 03:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
"I don't like the gay activist movement, I feel that every person should be able to live as they want, until they try to force me to validate or accept their lifestyle as morally acceptable when I feel it isn't
I don't like the anti-gay movement, I feel that every person should be able to live as they want, no one should be able to force anyone else to live a morally acceptable lifestyle in their eyes.

Using your argument, I think being anti-gay is immoral and it offends me, so you must stop.
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Old 12-01-2004, 08:09 AM   #17
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Heretic, your arguement is flawed at the most basic level...you see, I am not actively anti-gay, nor am I part of any anti-gay movement, I simply dissaprove of it, which is my belief. My problem with it only comes into play when others try to force me to acknowledge it as ok.

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Old 12-01-2004, 08:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
Gauche, I was just trying to make the point that a post usually stays reasonably civil until Horm comes in hurling insults and spewing filth, it brings out the worst in a lot of us, wasn't trying to claim I was morally superior, just that when he enters the scene he has a tendency to ruffle people's feathers and drag them down to his level.

Wulf
I wouldn't insult you if you weren't such a fucking douchebag. If you want me to stop all you have to do is stop being a homophobic rimlicker. It's just not that difficult. Well, maybe for you it is, but for those whose neurologic processes extend beyond the brain stem, it really quite simple. I don't post here to keep things civil- and nor do you, you hypocritical pussy. As for me "bringing the worst out" in you, how about some self-control if you're so superior? I didn't realize I had such power over you.

I'm curious what you'd know about my practical life experiences though. I guess it's more convenient for you to assume that I've spent my life in school taught solely by liberal homosexual draft dodgers.

As for teachers you still have not proven "a good portion." Many white Christian men are violently homophobic. I would not say a significant portion are violently homophobic however. Get it or is that also too subtle for you?
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Old 12-01-2004, 08:34 AM   #19
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homophobic rimlicker
ROFL. Right up there with Military Intelligence.
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Old 12-01-2004, 03:18 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Wulfhere
Heretic, your arguement is flawed at the most basic level...you see, I am not actively anti-gay, nor am I part of any anti-gay movement, I simply dissaprove of it, which is my belief. My problem with it only comes into play when others try to force me to acknowledge it as ok.
I don't see how anyone is forcing you to do anything, other than to just let another member of society that you don't like recieve the same rights. There are a few groups of people that I don't particularly care for. You don't see me out there protesting to take away their rights though.
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Old 12-01-2004, 03:30 PM   #21
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I think fundamentalist christianity is the bane of this country, but they still have the right to exist.
The KKK is a hateful organization, but as long as they don't break the law, then we can't outlaw them.
I think that Disney, Nike, and McDonalds are evil coorporation, but I'm not going to say they should be outlawed.
I choose to boycott these societies and to not interact with them, but unlike you, I am not such a raving BIGOT as to say that they shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Hell, GLBT people force themselves on society far less then fundamentalists, or the multi-nationals that pervade society but because of people like you who are so afraid of accepting anything that doesn't agree with you, we are facing outlawing people the right to be themselves.
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