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Old 12-07-2004, 10:56 AM   #26
Gauche
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Blasphemous Revised Lord's Prayer

Our Father who art in Heaven, (We don't know)
hallowed be thy name, (We don't understand)
Thy Kingdom come. (We don't want to know)
Thy Will be done, (We don't understand)
On Earth as it is in Heaven. (We don't know)
Give us this day our daily bread (We don't know what you had to do with it, but we're not taking any chances)
And forgive us our trespasses (We don't understand)
As we forgive those that trespass against us (We don't know)
And lead us not into temptation (We don't really mean this part)
But deliver us from evil (We don't understand why you made the stuff so nasty in the first place)
Amen (We don't really know what this means anymore but we always say it)
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:03 AM   #27
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A lot of people throughout history have done evil deeds, claiming God told them to do it, or professing to be Christ reincarnated. Aside from the Jim Jones' and David Koresh's of the world - which can largely be explained away as unstable personalities with a lot of charisma - Christians, in general, do a pretty good job of making non-believers second guess God. I think Brennan Manning put it pretty well when he said this:

The single greatest cause of athieism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
Everybody sins, and Christians are no different. We're all made the same, we're all human, and we're all susceptible to the same sin. Everybody is guilty of it. In the end, it isn't about who did what in the name of who, or how bad TimmyChristian acts, or what a kind and good person JimmyAthiest is. It's about a relationship between yourself and God. It is a decision each person must make on their own, and nobody else can make it for them.

If someone is truly seeking answers, but is dubious because of the actions of Christians they see around them every day, my advice would be this: don't let the folly of man cause you to miss God. Seek Him for yourself. Having a relationship with somebody is the easiest way to gaining an understanding of the true nature of that person.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:10 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Brig.
The funny thing about religion and belief in a god of any kind is that you go through life wondering if this...if that...and either defending or denying your beliefs both to yourself and to others.

But being able to have your beliefs and realize that you don't anyone any kind of explanation or defense for your beliefs is true serenity.


Back to chucking paper airplanes at the waiters in the Japanese Bar for me. What a special day!
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Esmerald
If someone is truly seeking answers, but is dubious because of the actions of Christians they see around them every day, my advice would be this: don't let the folly of man cause you to miss God. Seek Him for yourself. Having a relationship with somebody is the easiest way to gaining an understanding of the true nature of that person.
The fact that I do not believe in God has nothing to do with some Christians' hypocritical actions in daily life. It has to do with the fact that there is ZERO evidence of God's existence. The only mention of God is in a series of stories written by 'prophetic/insane' men long, long ago. So to reply to your statement, I say 'don't let the folly of man cause you to believe in God'. It never ceases to amaze me when people talk about seeking Jesus or having a personal relationship with God. It sounds as if the two of you went out for dinner last night or something.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Esmerald
Everybody sins, and Christians are no different. We're all made the same, we're all human, and we're all susceptible to the same sin. Everybody is guilty of it. In the end, it isn't about who did what in the name of who, or how bad TimmyChristian acts, or what a kind and good person JimmyAthiest is. It's about a relationship between yourself and God. It is a decision each person must make on their own, and nobody else can make it for them.

If someone is truly seeking answers, but is dubious because of the actions of Christians they see around them every day, my advice would be this: don't let the folly of man cause you to miss God. Seek Him for yourself. Having a relationship with somebody is the easiest way to gaining an understanding of the true nature of that person.

Well, we don't all agree on the same "sins", but in fact, I don't consider sinning Christians very relevant to disbelief. However the Bible itself and the many explanations given for its contents (not to mention the many other non-Christian religions) don't reconcile with what I understand of the reality around me. If there were a believable religion with any reason to believe but selfishness, I'd love to have a more appealing explanation for what I see around me. I'm of the opinion that the fault is in the religions, while naturally they disagree strongly. Since I refuse to pick one "just in case", I just make do without.
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:20 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gauche
If I weren't interested, despite your little insults, I wouldn't bother to respond
Will post more when I have more time, but I wanted to respond to this. I apologize for the jab, but when you trivialize one man's sacrifice for his fellow man, I am insulted. You may not believe it happened, but plenty of people do, and I don't think it's right to joke about something like that. Sure, joke all you want, but when you insult someone else's belief system, you should expect an appropriate response.
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:38 PM   #32
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Hey, I've never seen Pluto either. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:45 PM   #33
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Well, I do hope there is a difference in your perception between not seeing a giant ball of ice floating in space and not seeing an ethereal presence for which you base your entire life around.

Unless you think god lives on Pluto or something
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:55 PM   #34
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Gauche, question for you. WHO are YOU to ask God why?

The reason I ask that is that many times in my lifetime, I have asked God "Why?". Having a 16 year old girlfriend, from church, get killed in a car accident. Having my wife lose our second son at 5 months gestation. Having an older sister who is mentally handicapped due to a "bad" pregnancy from my mom. And the list goes on and on. All these have a "why God?" attached to them. But then I realize that there is so much more than our measly physical existance, that the things that happen on earth are only a speck in the annals of time. But it is our time here on earth that precisely determines our eternity. Do some of you honestly believe that you live 60, 70, 80 years or whatever, and then it is all over? That the time here on earth is the sum total of your entire existance? To me, that is a huge shame.

Now, for asking for evidence that God exists and that Jesus is the Son of God.

First off, there is MORE WRITTEN EVIDENCE of Christ living, dying and raising from the dead that there is written evidence of Shakespearse.

People who have died and have been resucitated have talked about seeing either "light" or "darkness" in a spiritual sense.

The existance of all material matter had to have a "start" somewhere. Even Scientist's have agreed that the universe had a "start", it has not always existed.
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Old 12-07-2004, 01:00 PM   #35
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First off, there is MORE WRITTEN EVIDENCE of Christ living, dying and raising from the dead that there is written evidence of Shakespearse.
If you are going to base evidence of Christ living on the Bilbe, then Zeus and all the Greek Gods are real too. There is a shitload of written evidence of them living, walking among mortals, fathering demi-gods. Actually I would rather follow the Old greek gods, they were a lot more fun and had better stories.
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Old 12-07-2004, 01:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Heretic
The fact that I do not believe in God has nothing to do with some Christians' hypocritical actions in daily life. It has to do with the fact that there is ZERO evidence of God's existence.
Do you think God doesn't exist, or do you know God doesn't exist. You say there is ZERO evidence of God's existence, but quite honestly, there is ZERO evidence proving God doesn't exist.


The only mention of God is in a series of stories written by 'prophetic/insane' men long, long ago. So to reply to your statement, I say 'don't let the folly of man cause you to believe in God'.
Did you know that the Bible is actually 66 individual books? Did you know that the Bible was authored by over 40 people, across 3 continents, in 3 languages, over the span of some 1500 years? Are you implying that all of this was simply the work of 1500 years worth of 'insane' men, and that the idea that God deliberately revealed Himself to all of these different people, in different areas, over such a long period, was just orchestrated as a big joke?


It never ceases to amaze me when people talk about seeking Jesus or having a personal relationship with God. It sounds as if the two of you went out for dinner last night or something.
Perhaps you should reevaluate your interpretation of the word 'relationship'. Do you have a father? A mother? Siblings? Do you interact with these people? That interaction is commonly known as a 'relationship'. Now, why does it amaze you that people speak frankly about something they believe in, even if you don't? Does it amaze you that they could be so wrong about something? Does it amaze you that they can have faith in something that you don't? I know exactly what you mean, though. Before I knew God, I never really comprehended what people meant when they talked about their relationship with God. They sounded as looney to me, talking so emphatically about God as if he were real, as I probably sound to you right now.

That's the interesting thing about faith in God. Having faith forces people out of their comfort zone, where everything can simply be proved or disproved by what man understands about the physical world and universe around him, but there is nothing in man's understanding which can be used as a measuring stick on God. There is no point of reference to build a sound theory from. It is strictly faith-based, and faith presents a gamble, with no clear evidence of a payout. Yet, the moment a person has truly placed their faith in God, the immediate conviction of their heart and affirmation of God's existence comes internally, and it is absolutely and undeniably real. It isn't anything that can be explained, or shared with anybody else as evidence, but it is God's evidence of His existence, revealed to those who place their faith in Him. Without taking that leap of faith, you can never really understand what that means, and I can never explain it in a way that would make it real to you.
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Old 12-07-2004, 01:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Usna
If you are going to base evidence of Christ living on the Bilbe, then Zeus and all the Greek Gods are real too. There is a shitload of written evidence of them living, walking among mortals, fathering demi-gods. Actually I would rather follow the Old greek gods, they were a lot more fun and had better stories.
Historians don't dispute the fact that Jesus lived, and was put to death by order of Pontius Pilatus, because there are non-Biblical historical accounts of His existence by Roman historians.
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Old 12-07-2004, 01:51 PM   #38
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I don't know that Christianity has ever tried to pimp God out as a lovey-dovey Carebear type.
For so God loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Your dream of a vengeful God is fueled by your hatred of your fellow man. You ought to read the Bible first before you speak of God as not loving.
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Old 12-07-2004, 02:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
For so God loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Your dream of a vengeful God is fueled by your hatred of your fellow man. You ought to read the Bible first before you speak of God as not loving.
Being that you quoted me, I'm gonna assume you're addressing me here. In that case, I have to ask, "Did you even read what I said, in context with the other posts that were made?"
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Old 12-07-2004, 03:19 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Esmerald
Historians don't dispute the fact that Jesus lived, and was put to death by order of Pontius Pilatus, because there are non-Biblical historical accounts of His existence by Roman historians.

I've read arguments that there is no such account by a Roman living during Jesus' time. I haven't yet done research on this topic, though, so do you happen to know what accounts provide proof of Jesus really existing and being crucified?
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Old 12-07-2004, 03:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Gauche, question for you. WHO are YOU to ask God why?

The reason I ask that is that many times in my lifetime, I have asked God "Why?". Having a 16 year old girlfriend, from church, get killed in a car accident. Having my wife lose our second son at 5 months gestation. Having an older sister who is mentally handicapped due to a "bad" pregnancy from my mom. And the list goes on and on. All these have a "why God?" attached to them. But then I realize that there is so much more than our measly physical existance, that the things that happen on earth are only a speck in the annals of time. But it is our time here on earth that precisely determines our eternity. Do some of you honestly believe that you live 60, 70, 80 years or whatever, and then it is all over? That the time here on earth is the sum total of your entire existance? To me, that is a huge shame.

Now, for asking for evidence that God exists and that Jesus is the Son of God.

First off, there is MORE WRITTEN EVIDENCE of Christ living, dying and raising from the dead that there is written evidence of Shakespearse.

People who have died and have been resucitated have talked about seeing either "light" or "darkness" in a spiritual sense.

The existance of all material matter had to have a "start" somewhere. Even Scientist's have agreed that the universe had a "start", it has not always existed.

I'm one of God's creations, according to you, given the gift of thought and the ability to question and examine through limited senses my surroundings. Who are YOU to deny me my right to question God? God may have all the power, but He does not have the moral authority you cede him without question. Can I be wrong? Heck yes, but that's almost irrelevant to this point. I question God because I can, because the only thing that says I am wrong are people threatened by my questions. Unless I am mistaken, there's no way my questions can overthrow God, and if by this point God's got "thin skin" for criticism, He would be hiding in the broom closet.

Do I want the total of my existence to be a measly few years on Earth? No, I don't. That's not what I want. But I won't believe in some imaginary magic person just on the off chance that it will grant me more life after life. I need to be certain enough for better reasons than that to worship a particular divine figure.

Please present the evidence or links to the evidence of Jesus existing. I thought there was some, but I've seen refutations of several vague quotes of Roman writers.

As for light, I can close my eyes and make myself see lights just by thinking the right way. That's pretty inconclusive evidence. Also, scientists don't agree that the universe had a start, they just don't know a way to measure anything beyond what they believe to be some form of "Big Bang". It's an unknown, and even if it had a start from somewhere, that doesn't require a creator, nor does it require a Christian creator. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but then I'm not ruling out that a galaxy-sized camel spit out the universe either.
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Old 12-07-2004, 03:38 PM   #42
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Hey, I've never seen Pluto either. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What about Mickey??? No nononononono....not the bottle type! The Mouse!
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
What if everyone's sitting here laughing at God, downplaying him and the things he's done? To stand in the presence of the all-powerful, all-knowing God that is taught in the Bible, and have to explain to Him why we thought we knew better? How we'd trivialized him, kicked Him out of our lives, our homes, our country? How we'd denied His existence?
I'm sure he'll understand. After all, he is a forgiving god right? Slow to anger and all that bullshit? Geez, even gods have human emotions now.

What's more, doesn't anyone seem to notice that sacrifice is predominant in most if not all of the religions today? In Christianity, the Christian God sacrificed his son for the world. In Buddhism, one must sacrifice material possesions in order to achieve enlightenment. In Hinduism, material possesions and in some extreme cases, their first-born are donated to the temples. In Islam, a goat is sacrificed to mark the end of Ramadan, or the fasting month.

It seems to me like nothing is really sacred and that these gods of religions are granting us our wishes if they can get something in return, like some sort of spiritual barter trade.

Originally Posted by Esmerald
A lot of people throughout history have done evil deeds, claiming God told them to do it, or professing to be Christ reincarnated.
It's easier to blame the Devil, because duhhh he is da evil one!!

Originally Posted by Wildane
Sure, joke all you want, but when you insult someone else's belief system, you should expect an appropriate response.
Jiiiihaaaaadd!!

Originally Posted by Inmountains
People who have died and have been resucitated have talked about seeing either "light" or "darkness" in a spiritual sense.
The brain's reaction to dying.
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:44 PM   #44
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You are the dumbest person to post on this board, Heretic. Congratulations. Go stand by your mailbox to receive your prize.

Who really gives a fuck about your hip, I just want to rag on Christianity point of view. You want to be the village idiot and voice of hate on this board and thats ok by me. At least vary your message a bit and show us why other religions are fairy tales as well. As it is you sound like you are just a little boy who got touched by a priest and is lashing out instead of seeking therapy.

Pssst. I am not a Christian so strike one for your obvious response about staying with in the teachings of the bible. You are a bigot no better than the Klan or the NAACP.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Esmerald
A lot of people throughout history have done evil deeds, claiming God told them to do it, or professing to be Christ reincarnated.
Who is to say that they weren't telling the truth? What makes their claims less than the authors of the Bible?


Originally Posted by Esmerald
You say there is ZERO evidence of God's existence, but quite honestly, there is ZERO evidence proving God doesn't exist.
As I've said before, this proves nothing. I can say that Thomas Jefferson ate a doughnut the day he died. Prove me wrong! If you can't, then it is true. Seriously, for something to be taken as a sound theory, there has to be evidence to start the theory off.


Originally Posted by Esmerald
Did you know that the Bible is actually 66 individual books? Did you know that the Bible was authored by over 40 people, across 3 continents, in 3 languages, over the span of some 1500 years? Are you implying that all of this was simply the work of 1500 years worth of 'insane' men, and that the idea that God deliberately revealed Himself to all of these different people, in different areas, over such a long period, was just orchestrated as a big joke?
There are more people that claim to have had God 'reveal' himself to them, even in recent times. Many ancient writings didn't 'make the cut' into the Bible. Who is to claim that some of them are false and others true?


Originally Posted by Esmerald
Yet, the moment a person has truly placed their faith in God, the immediate conviction of their heart and affirmation of God's existence comes internally, and it is absolutely and undeniably real.
Of course. The moment YOU accept that God is real, he becomes real to YOU in YOUR OWN mind. This does not prove his existence in the outside world.


Originally Posted by Esmerald
Having faith forces people out of their comfort zone
I contend that faith is a comfort zone. People run to it from weakness. They cannot accept that they only have a short time on this Earth, then it is over. They cannot accept that evil goes unpunished, and that their is no reward for the good that suffer in this life.


Originally Posted by Esmerald
Historians don't dispute the fact that Jesus lived, and was put to death by order of Pontius Pilatus, because there are non-Biblical historical accounts of His existence by Roman historians.
All historians I have heard from refute this.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:32 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wildane
I apologize for the jab, but when you trivialize one man's sacrifice for his fellow man, I am insulted.
I don't trivialize a man's sacrifice, because I believe it never happened. Even if it did happen, it wasn't a man's sacrifice for his fellow men, because Jesus wasn't a mortal.


Originally Posted by Wildane
You may not believe it happened, but plenty of people do, and I don't think it's right to joke about something like that.
The fact that plenty of people believe it happened is the big joke.


Originally Posted by Brigiid
Hey, I've never seen Pluto either. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Go look in a telescope. Next.


Originally Posted by Inmountains
WHO are YOU to ask God why?
I have every right to ask why. Here you go again conceding the highest authority to an invisible man and throwing away free thought and logic that you were born with.


Originally Posted by Inmountains
Do some of you honestly believe that you live 60, 70, 80 years or whatever, and then it is all over? That the time here on earth is the sum total of your entire existance? To me, that is a huge shame.
It is a huge shame. Doesn't make it not true however much you or I wish it to be so.


Originally Posted by Inmountains
First off, there is MORE WRITTEN EVIDENCE of Christ living, dying and raising from the dead that there is written evidence of Shakespearse.
All sources (non-Christian) that I have read say that there is no reliable written evidence of the time. Also, Shakespeare has little evidence of his existence? Would like to hear more?


Originally Posted by Shard
Who really gives a fuck about your hip, I just want to rag on Christianity point of view. You want to be the village idiot and voice of hate on this board and thats ok by me. At least vary your message a bit and show us why other religions are fairy tales as well.
Other religions are not trying to hijack the country. Other religions are already viewed as fairy tales by most of the population. They need no help.


Originally Posted by Shard
You are a bigot no better than the Klan or the NAACP.
To me, a bigot is one that hates others based on how they were born or for things they cannot help. No one is born a Christian. Even so, just because you hate the religion doesn't mean you totally hate those that practice it.


Originally Posted by Shard
You are the dumbest person to post on this board, Heretic. Congratulations. Go stand by your mailbox to receive your prize
Thank you, thank you! But alas, I contend that I am not worthy of this award. I bequeath this award to Shardmoon, who is truely deserving. Shard is the dumbest person on this board because they repeatedly post with personal insults and mindless drivel instead of trying to carry out a debate. Go stand by your garage to recieve your prize.
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"i always refer to myself as a "missionary agnostic." that is, not only do i not know shit about shit, but i'm going to try and convince you that you don't know shit about shit either and there's no way for you to know shit about shit."

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Old 12-07-2004, 11:45 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Heretic
Other religions are not trying to hijack the country.
Are Christians really trying to hijack the US? Or are you just cranky that so many Americans consider themselves to be Christians, and resent having the country hijacked out from under them? Don't those Americans have just as much right to have their feelings considered as you do?


Originally Posted by Heretic
Other religions are already viewed as fairy tales by most of the population. They need no help.
Most of which population? The US? The world in general? Do you really think that "most" of any population really thinks religion is nothing more than a fairy tale? Do you think people are waging wars and manipulating goverments and people based on something that they know is just a farse? Just because religion is not important or real to you doesn't mean it isn't to someone else.


Originally Posted by Heretic
Go look in a telescope. Next.
Go read the Bible. /shrug

Just because a little dot shows up in a telescope doesn't mean it's Pluto. Just because 60-some-odd men penned a bunch of books that were allegedly inspired by God Himself doesn't mean they're true.

"Proof" is in the eye of the beholder. If I don't believe that what I see is Pluto, it doesn't feel true for me. If you don't believe that the Bible really was the word of God, or that God doesn't really exist, then ok, it doesn't feel true for you. The funny part is that so many people sit back and mock others for believing things they can't prove to be true. In actuality, even atheists and scientists believe in things they can't prove to be true, either. Different sides of the same coin, that's all.
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:36 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Are Christians really trying to hijack the US? Or are you just cranky that so many Americans consider themselves to be Christians, and resent having the country hijacked out from under them?
You asked a question and answered it with your next sentence. You say Christians resent having the country hijacked from them. You are implying that Christians control this country.


Just because a little dot shows up in a telescope doesn't mean it's Pluto.
Oh, the power of denial.


Do you really think that "most" of any population really thinks religion is nothing more than a fairy tale? Do you think people are waging wars and manipulating goverments and people based on something that they know is just a farse? Just because religion is not important or real to you doesn't mean it isn't to someone else.
Does Buddha mean anything to you? How about Allah or Zeus? I think it is safe to say that most Americans view these as fairy tales. What makes any of these religions 'myths' and Christianity the 'truth'.

Heres a good quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts
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bg85 on another forum:
"i always refer to myself as a "missionary agnostic." that is, not only do i not know shit about shit, but i'm going to try and convince you that you don't know shit about shit either and there's no way for you to know shit about shit."

Heretic
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:27 AM   #49
Kulani Autumnwood
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pit of Despair (So. Cal.)
Posts: 554
My favorite rabid christian baiting debate starter...

"Lets assume there is a satan and a god. What if what you think of as god really is satan and corrupted people into writing the bible in order to trick people into thinking they were worshipping god when really all they're doing is causing endless strife, battle, death, etc for satan to glory in?"

<shrug> Thats always been a favorite way of sending fundamentalist christians into meltdown for me. Another favorite is "What if God did inspire mortals to write the bible, but he intentionally left parts out as an exercise in logic? For example... thou shalt not lie with man as you would with woman, what if he figured it went without saying that lieing with man as you would with man was perfectly ok?"

And another personal favorite was the time I tried to explain to a very christian aquaintence of mine how I could believe in her God and not worship him. Apparently according to what she was taught, once you believe you automatically worship, they're one and the same thing. Don't try to wrap your head around that one, I still don't get it -- course this particular christian (and not saying they're all like this) was a loonytoon. She used to sleep with my boyfriend then run around the downtown/shopping section of the town we lived in ripping off her clothes and screaming the devil made her do it. Although wether she was referring to the clothes ripping off or the sleeping around we'll never know.

I'll admit it, I enjoy riling up "bible bangers", no matter what bible they happen to be banging. My favorite was the time some of those door to door annoyances came to my apartment three, four years back and invited me to "come hear the truth and be saved" or whatever crap it was she was trying to sell me and I told her I would if she agreed to come to my next religious gathering. This of course was responded to by "oh, what religion" to which (perfectly straight faced mind you) I responded "Cazic Thule...do you have a whip btw, you'll need one". As she was running off I yelled that she didn't need to rush off and get one, I had a spare I could lend her.

That kept me cracked up for a good year every time I thought of it... No I didn't pick CT because I actually worship some cartoon god from EQ, or because I thought she'd recognize it... I picked it because it was the evilest sounding of the gods to come to mind hehe.
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:42 AM   #50
Foust Farseer
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Posts: 2,406
haha that rocks.
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"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
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