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Old 12-01-2004, 09:37 PM   #266
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Luky
Not gonna read all the pages here......

But - /soapbox on

You know, there was a time when those who were Christian were among the leading thinkers of their time. Christians who stuidied philosophy, mathematics, science, the arts, humanties.

It is quite ironic that science has suceeded in making God a and faith a purely "personal" thing that cannot be argued or proven, when christian thinkers used to use science as a way to understand the world that God created for us to dwell in.

It is imo, a direct result of the intellectually lazy, post modern, relativistic culture we now live in. It seems people everywhere are stupid sheep.

Many accept evolution to be fact - 100% fact - when it is - still - called the theory of evolution. They do this why? Because someone told them it was so. The Teachers or whoever presented their arguments and their evidence and then said - this is so. And so to the normal person growing up today - evolution is fact. They do not apply their brains to the theory very much, they do not really investigate WHY it is accepted as fact or even consider if it should be.... it simply IS.

In this same vein, there are lazy minded Christians who believe in creation and in God, but cannot say why they believe, and yet when asked to defend their faith or explain something, they fall back on well - the bible says so! or my pastor told me! or my mom taught me! or even - i read it in a book!

My point?

Not all Christians are stupid sheep who cannot have a coherent conversation or argument regarding their beliefs. Nor is it biblical to be so..... All christians should be able to defend their beliefs and faith, using reason. in other words, using their minds.

So, stop the Christian bashing here. You cannot lump all of us together. Nor can you lump all of muslims together or all atheists either!

If you think there are not Christains who intellectually apply themselves to the questions of evolution and other worldly matters with precision and reason, then I encourage you to take a look at JP Morgan, CS Lewis, Watchman Nee, and (cant recall the author) Darwin's Black Box.

Then apply YOUR minds, and quit following the other sheep blindly.

For the record, faith cannot be achieved without reason.

Well I will agree that most Western scientists used to be good Christians who in fact looked at the world for proof of God's existence. Nowadays there are still many good Christians who are scientists, but there are few who attempt to justify the bible with nature. Meanwhile, there seems to be an emphasis on faith as opposed to reason for many devout religious people. However it's questionable whether this is a change from the past, considering, for example only, that most people used to be preached to in a language they didn't understand (Latin) and had no access to a copy of the Bible.

I haven't found very good arguments in the Christian apologists I've read, but I applaud the effort anyway. (C.S. Lewis, for example, while heavily touted as a great thinker, struck me otherwise, although I liked his fiction.)

I feel I must argue with you about faith and reason. Faith is by definition I thought belief with a lack of proof. Whether logical proof counts is another matter. As an aside, I was always confused by the disparity between people claiming faith was the way while simultaneously mentioning miracles, aka proofs.

However, I concur that most people don't really examine what they believe or why. When I was younger I believed in a God even though I wasn't supposed to read the Bible that described the God I was believing in. Ironically, studying the Bible was what led me to dismiss the religion, although I tried to maintain a belief in a God despite that. Most people don't seem to be willing to take the time to really think about their beliefs, alas, even if it's the most important thing one could do philosophically.
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