First of all I want to say how shocked and outraged I am about the suicide hijacking/bombings. While I am not a US Citizen, I've been living in the USA for 18 years and consider it my adopted homeland. I just spent the entire day (8AM till 1AM) watching the CNN in total horrified shock. I am sickened to know that some people have so much hate in they're hearts to do such things to innocent people. Now to the real meat of this message:

Stop blaming all of Islam for the actions of a few fanaticals!

I know that many people who are saying "kill em all" or "anyone wearing a rag better watch out" or some other bullshit like that, are first of all very childish... and considering the sudden stress of current events are angry and venting out their fustrations. Most of them don't mean it, or are just full of hot air. Still it is annoying to see ignorent childish little pricks foaming at the the mouth, blindly and stupidly lashing out at anyone and anything that has anything to do with Islam, instead of using thier heads and realizing who is really responsible.

If, you are like me, and wanted to be educated before making up you opinions, I suggest you read up about the history of the middle east. I did just that and realized what a beautiful culture the various peoples of the middle east have. These are not evil people. They're religion teaches love and respect for one and other. Do not judge all of Islam for the action of a few twisted fucks like Bin Laden and his followers! They have a sick and skewed misinterperataion of thier own religion. They represent a tiny radical faction of thier society, much like Neo-Nazis and the KKK here in the US. Are all americans racist murderers, just because some morons, end up on the news, runing around buring crosses with bed sheets on their heads? No.

As a final thought I want to say that I fully support my Americna friends and the possition of Pres. Bush. Once the right people have been found, the USA should act swiftly and forcefully to bring the guilty people (and those that are protecting them) to justice.

TERRORISM, AGAINST ANYONE, IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY--AN ACT OF WAR AGAINST HUMANITY!

Yvan

PS. In case you are wondering, no I am not muslim, nore am I from the middle east. I'm actually a white european catholic living in my adopted homeland, which I love very much. The USA.

I don't blame anyone yet.. just leaning toward afghanistan (I may yet prove to be completely wrong.. but since I have neither the power nor the influence to start my own investigation I can only speculate) W definitely shouldn't condemn all of the islam nations for the actions of one organization (if it was only one...) but I do agree.. that once we find out who did it that we should kill every last one of them and anyone harboring or assisting them...


Snuggums - Troll SK - Emarr

They represent a tiny radical faction of thier society, much like Neo-Nazis and the KKK here in the US. Are all americans racist murderers, just because some morons, end up on the news, runing around buring crosses with bed sheets on their heads? No.

If you want to be able to compare these three groups the neo-nazis and the KKK would have to be "supported" by the US government. Not as in officially giving them money/political support, but as in not doing anything to stop them and without saying approving of their actions. You would have to have quite a large part of americans throughout the world cheer and dance in the streets when they kill/torture a non kaukasian person.

Do the US government approve of racists/nazis ? nope
Do the Arab government approve of the terrorists trying to bring the great satan down ? Yes

see the difference ?

Do the Arab government approve of the terrorists trying to bring the great satan down ? Yes

i think you will find that this statement is not actually true.
it might be true of afganistan, but dont label every arab government with the same tarnished brush.

The fact that _some_ Palestinians celebrated the attack still doesn't reflect on all Muslims. To blame this on Islam rather than on the specific individuals/organizations who did this is wrong. No amount of anger will change that.

> Do the US government approve of racists/nazis ?

Quite recently (60s?), there was definately support for the KKK within the judical system, as evidenced by repeated acquittals of Klansmen in situations in which guilty verdicts would seem to have been much more appropriate.

> Do the Arab government approve of the terrorists trying to bring the great satan down ?

The Iraqi government/media seem to approve of this act. Bin Laden claims not to have been behind the act, but to approve of it. But even the Taliban government in Afghanistan says they are shocked. Now, one may not believe this, and they are happy to harbour bin Laden, but I'm prepared to believe the horror expressed by many other Arabic nations.

I don't blame Islam at all, in fact I hate that an entire group of people are lumped together because of their skin and/or beliefs.

What I do blame are governments, religious sects, organizations, neighborhoods, and communities that support this type of activity. Support comes in many varieties - sanctuary, financial, political, apathy, and feigned ignorance.

The US has been the brunt of terrorism for nearly 20 years. A short time compared to other nations. But, as a whole we've remained complacent, turning a cheek, afraid of what our actions might cause.

IMO the time has come to give an ultimatum to the nations that have a history of "harboring" terrorists. An ultimatum with a swift and brutal consequence.

I've often supported talks, and to a degree I support diplomatic efforts now. But history has shown that diplomacy leads to short-term memory, scheming, scapegoating, and general lose of fervor. This enemy has proven time-and-again that negotiations and compromise are not possible.

Ceru

I see the point you are trying to make Caladdorr, but I don't think you realize the meanings of the lables you are using in your analogies.

"Arab" is an ethnic group which are mostly located in arabian peninsula and Iraq. Not all Arabs are Islamic (infact many are Jewish and Christian). Likewise not all Islamic peoples are Arab. The Turks are Islamic too, and are spread out between an area from Turkey, up into russia, and across the caucus mountains almost into China. During the Islamic conquests of 1100 - 1700AD, many people living in greece and the balkans were also converted to Islam, as were many Indians in that subcontinent. All over the middle east there are various smaller ethnic groups that are all Islamic.

On top of it all, there are many different types of Islam. The two major types are Sunni in the west and Shi (which tend to be more militant) in the east. Both types abhor violence.

Finally, not all "arab" and/or "islamic" people are ruled by one government. Most of these islamic governments do not support terrorism. Infact, Egypt itself an arabian islamic nation that is the regular target of many terrorist plots because it sides with western powers when it comes to many political oppinions.

Like I said earlier, many people on this board post messages here thinking they know all the facts, when they don't. Others, usually the childish ones, simply don't care and just want to lash out at anyone. I also suspect that racism is a strong motivator for them to speak out against "those dirty rag heads"

/sigh

Yvan

Hmm it would seem as tho ivanhoe knows something about religion he didnt explain the difference between the two.
The group of ISLAMS that are responsible are Islamic Jihad. Now to put the Islamic Jihad into perpective they have there own complete different offsets of how one religion work. Almost like the difference between Catholics and Baptists in a far way albeit more extreme.

Islamic Jihad, instead of believing like the rest of islam ,they think the purging of infidels ( the US) is the main way to work there way to allah in the end. The rest of islam has a core set of beliefs none of which the Islamic Jihad represent. They share none of the same beliefs about the afterlife either. The only thing they agree on almost is Allah is there equivelent to god. So what am l rambling about? Well basically just making the point the difference between Islamic Jihad and regular Muslims i the difference between The pope and louis Farrikhan.

Something else I fergot to mention in my last post.

I do think Afganistan is harboring terrorists, and there for is just as guilty as the terrorists themselves. I think they are doing this out of their own free will, and if it is the case Bin Laden is responsible for these attacks, they should be attacked.

But many of you seem to not know, or totally ignore a few important side facts, which can help us understand why they do the things they do. Internal politics is just as important there as it is here.

It turns out that Bin Laden is a war hero there, and helped them win their independence from the USSR in the 1980s. Besides the fact that the Taliban feels honor bound to help Bin Laden when he asks for shelter, the fact that he is a "Davy Crocket" type character to the population there, helps the Taliban recruit more young men into their ranks for their ongoing war with the Northern Alliance (the Taliban's only real opponent in the current civil war there). If the Taliban pissed off Bin Laden, they risk loosing valueable new conscripts, but possibley control of the entire country if Bin Laden throws his support behind the Northern Alliance.

So in a lot of ways, you could say that they have no choice, but to shelter him, and risk getting attacked by the US every time he acts out. Sure, getting bombed isnt fun, but at least they stay in control, which ultimately is the only thing the leaders of any regime really care about.

So you have to ask youself again, is Islam really evil, or is it Bin Laden and the Taliban?

Yvan

When i said arabs i meant the arab/islamic governments in the middleeast - who as far as i know have done nothing to actively hunt down terrorists. I do not remember all the names of the countries so i figured that it would be obvious that i didn't mean turkey for instance or people around the world with an arab heritage.

I do not have a problem with the islamic/arabic population, who just live their life and do not condone the terrorism. I do however have a problem with the governments who do not try to rid their area of known terrorists. When they say they think it is a tragedy what happened yesterday, and at the same time do not show with actions that they are trying to fix their terrorist problem is not ok. When the terrorists are celebrated as heroes it is nok ok!

Giving the people who most likely planned these actions a place to live in peace while saying what happened is terrible doesn't seem too honest to me.

If the Taliban are in fact harboring Bin Laden (the evidence leans toward this), then they can kiss it all goodbye.

The same goes with any state that sponsors terrorism. Islamic or not, I could care less. Those who sponsor this shit are going to die, plain and simple.

I'd like to quote (albeit most likely a paraphrase of Heinlein from Starship Troopers)

"Naked force has resolved more issues in history than any other factors combined, to think otherwise is wishful thinking at its worst".

The time for talk is finished. the time for action is now

Popplo, your comments are correct, but there is something I want to point out....

The Islamic Jihad is not an accepted and recongnizes sub-class of Islam, like Sunni or Shi. Those two branches are huge.

And while its true that many of the smaller (and accepted/recongnized) branches started out the same way as the Islamic Jihad. They have grown to have quite large followings over 100s of years. One example is Twelver Shi'ism which believes in "the hidden Madih." The Madih literally translated means "one who will correct all wrongs" Over the many centuries many power hungry and rebelious tribal leaders capitalized on this belief by claiming they were the Madih.

Anyway, the point is that the group known as the Islamic Jihad, is very young. Only about 60 years old, if that. As it currently exists, I would classify it more as a "secret society" or a radical sect rather then an honest offshoot of Islam.

A good analogy would be:

if Islam = Chistianity
then Sunni = Catholisim
and Islamic Jihad = Branch Dividian in Waco

Thats how "out there" these guys are. David Koresh was having sex with multiple women and littke girls. Christianity doesnt teach that. Likewise, Islamic Jihad says to kill any american you can get your hands on... Islam doesnt teach that either.

Yvan

But thats exactly my point Caladdor. Maybe I am missunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that any country that fit the arab/islamic combo automaticly harbors terrorists.

I just gave you an example of an arab/islamic country, Egypt, that not only goes after terrorists, but is itself the victem of their attacks. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the United Arab Emerits, Kuwait, are just to name a few arab/islamic countries that (while often dragging their feet) have a policy of going after terrorists. Iran, which has in the last 15 years become more and more moderate, has kicked out many known terrorists along with the hardliners in the government that were helping them.

Infact, there are FEW arab/islamic countries that support terrorists. Lybia, Afganistan and Iraq to name the 3 biggest.

And I absolutely agree with you, these governments are scum, and should be over thrown. Not only for the good of the countries who suffer from their terrorism, but also for the people who live there and who are being used.

Yvan

Caladdor...

Do the US government approve of racists/nazis ? nope


The USA was one of the last countries to disinvest from the Republic of South Africa and impose economic sanctions despite the openly-declared and legislated racism in that nation. Why? Because South Africa was a firm bastion of anti-communism and the US saw a partner to combat the *sarcasm on* stinking red pinko commies *sarcasm off*.
You know, the the enemy of my enemy is my friend corollary.

Ulujain ...

How about responding to my entire post, instead of taking one sentence out of context and reply with something that isn't the situation now.

You might as well reply with "the US accepts racism since they support muslim countries who obviously are showing racism towards jews and other non muslims"

I think that all of the people who want to engage in rational and acadmeic debate with people who are hurt and angry right now need to chill the fuck out.

I happen to live in NY and spent all day yesterday making sure that everyone I know and love is still breathing.

Yes, I am aware that not all islamics are evil (I've got a lot of Islamic friends). Yes I am aware of the actual definition of "coward" (like this fucking matters). Yes I realize that "violence begets more violence". Yes I am aware that the Palestinians have some legit claims (so do the Israelis, a claim which the pro-Palestinians NEVER acknowledge). Yes I am aware that not ALL of the 360 some thousand Palestinians were celebrating (just a healthy representative sample).

But you know what? Right now I am pissed off and I really don't care. We are pissed off, hurt and angry. Anyone who wouldn't be is an emotional zombie.

Engaging in academic debate with someone involved at the CORE of the issue at a time like this is PRETTY FRIGGIN BAD TIMING!

All the more reason the strike back with a vengeance Ealan..not sit around with our thumbs up our asses waiting on attack number 2. The only solution to this attack with be a massive, unrelenting, and devastating attack by allied forces on the middle eastern countries that support and shelter terrorists, regardless of their invlovement yesterday or not. They need to be taught a lesson..and the time is now.

Poppen Steelfist 54 Disciple and officer of SoD

I don't blame them all.... but i do blame those that celebrated.
I know not all muslim and islamic people are bad, in fact i have friends that both are muslim and islamic..... I still talk to them today, but those in the cities of afgan celebrating the loss of innocent human life, praising the manics that used civilian aircraft and life as weapons are who i have to blame...


Azhar Lioncrest

PS. I personally think they knew it was going to happen, passing out cakes?

I dont blame the people at all either....but I do aggree with Azhar in blaimg the ones who celebrated. Also as a US citizen I find it offensive. In my opinion, I think that it is SICK that these people can celebrate and give praise to the death of thousands and thousands of innocent people including the wide number of helpless disabled persons who worked in the building. How can they celebrate the loss of a Father, Mother, Grandfater, Husband, Wife, a CHILD, and so on?

Just to correct one point, there are no jewish arabs... There are jews of decent from north africa and spain, known as Sephardic jews, (as opposed to those of European decent), but Arabs are typically either Moslem or Christian, though there are some Animist bedouins.

While I am heavily biased on this issue, it is VERY wrong to stereotype moslems as being fundamentalist. Ben Laden does represent a small percentage of moslems, including the Hamas in Israel/Palestine, the fundamentalist faction fighting in Egypt, the Islamic Jihad in the PA area, Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Many of the most violent anti-western regimes are in fact secular-based, including Iraq and Syria.

The real issue is with the terrorists and the countries who support terrorism, either overtly or covertly. They include Syria (Islamic Jihad), Iran (Hezbollah), Libya and Iraq (multiple groups).

Turkey is an example of an overwhelming moslem country that is VERY anti-fundamentalist, and an ally of Israel militarily.

Americans, as a society have typically been calm and slow to anger in respects to other nations. We also, however, when pushed to the breaking point, are one of the groups of people who stick together and in the end, once angered, demand complete and total vengance.

If you're sick of people blaming Islam, it's not your place to force them to believe otherwise. Sure, level headed people realize that Islam isn't the problem, the terrorists are in particular, but you are not dealing with a rational and clear headed populous. You're dealing with bloodlust. Walk up to someone who was in the building at the time of the attack and tell them "the facts." Walk up to someone who was close to someone who died and tell them "the facts." Hell, walk up to any American with a sense of dignity who has not lived in a cave for the past 48 hours and tell them "the facts." They won't listen. They don't want to. We want justice, we want vengance, and most of all, we want our security back.

America wept watching innocent victims jump to their death out of a burning and collapsing building... and the images of gleeful, cheering Palestinians following the deaths of thousands - THOUSANDS - of innocent people has burned a hatred in American hearts so deep we will feel it for decades to come.

Emotions are the key issue here, not what you call "ignorance" because, as we know, when emotions run high, rationality runs low. You criticize something which cannot be avoided, and which is normal. We know who are enemies are, but we don't know WHERE they are, so we are afraid. To the average American, the enemy could be everywhere.

Speaking of emotions running high..

Someone mentioned in class today that someone ran in and gunned down two Islamic men at a local 7-11 out on Long Island; they probably didn't have anything to do with the terrorist acts and yet their families are never going to see them alive again.

Are these American murderers much different from the hijackers on those planes?

~Khael

Kill em all, let Allah sort em out.

Look...we all need to take into consideration that a couple thousand innocent Americans just died in a matter of minutes. America is pissed off...the people are pissed off. Lot's of people are so enraged that they would choose to jump to conclusions and put blame on a certain ethnic group. This is normal, as far as I'm concerned. Though I don't entirely agree with it, it will happen. Think about it...this is the greatest tragedy to happen to the United States since the Civil War, some say...others say it rivals Pearl Harbor. There is going to be alot of huff-huff for a long time, until the FBI/CIA gets 100% leads on the culprit(s). Everyone needs to calm down. This is a time where we all need to stick together and help each other, instead of pointing fingers. There are children that don't have mom's and pop's anymore. There are people that will never be able to live a normal day again after this. We should all really look at what's happened and instead of getting pissed off..we should concentrate on stretching out our hands to help someone that needs it. These were innocent people...nobody deserved this, but they do deserve support and at least our prayers...

well in light of strahd's comment i think ya may as well just move this post to rants and flames right now cause thats how it will turn out. My point of view on the subject:

I dont think it is right to condem(sp?) Islam as a whole. I do however believe many of those countries or places housing terrorists are guilty by association, however i dont think that we can just go bombing the innocent people that live there too.

Also, I'm hoping everyone saw the Palestinians dancing around because I was astounded by the utter disregard for human life regardless of nationality...lemme tell you that looks like a nation that wants peace

Agreed

In a moment of sheer anger Sig sayz..

/fuck Palestinians

I spent 6 months last year in Egypt, Jordan and Israel. I had many experiences with the Jew the Muslim and the Christian people in the middle east.

There are many different things about the middle east and America, one notable difference is the way the have a religious apartheid added to the strong beliefs of their God. And the close proximity to each other and in some places cross-over on top of each other. Palestine and Israel (but there is no Palestine) is the reason that there is fighting going on over there.

Don't tell me that I have not done my research and had no opinions of these people before this took place.

I'm not saying wipe every middle eastern country off the map just the countries that pose a threat to my life and the lives of Americans. Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Lebanon, Syria and parts of Sudan and Pakistan.

____________________________________________________
The real issue is with the terrorists and the countries who support terrorism, either overtly or covertly. They include Syria (Islamic Jihad), Iran (Hezbollah), Libya and Iraq (multiple groups).
____________________________________________________

In this point I argee with you about the different radical factions that cause terror in that area. But the whole area and most of the population infringe on humanities civil rights.

You say words like the KKK and the Natzi while the USA is trying to rid the world of people with those methods of racial and cultural cleansing.

The USA goes over to the middle east to try and help settle disputes and keep the world in a peaceful equilibrium. If the USA was not there too keep the peace do you understand what type of carnage would take place? And then the world would pass judgement on the USA saying, why did you not step in and help, dont those people have civil rights?

Well we have stepped in and those terrorists have crossed a large ocean to cause carnage on our soil. Like Bush sayed last night not only are the terrorists responsible for these actions the countries that harbour them are also responsible. They are conspirators since they know what type of people they have inside their borders and fail to do anything about it.

My views are clear "an eye for an eye" and just to make sure you wont go after my other eye I will also cut off your hands.

I participated in a dig in lsrael at Mt. Meron for Rice University. While in site we were shot at about a half a dozen time by Libyan troops standing on their mountians about 3-4 miles away (a straight shout of about 1 mile). My best friend had a bullet fragment pierce his wrist, to this day he still has limited movement of his hand.

I attended classes in Tantur Israel just out side of Bethlehem, the day after I had left to come back to America a guy that I was in class with was shot and killed by a stray bullet. I sat right next to him and that could of been me.

It was my choice to go and visit and learn about the culture in the worlds terrorist hotbed. If I had died over there it was my choice no one elses.

America was and has been inserted as peace keepers into the middle east and the terrorist groups of each time period have challenged the US to a pissing contest. By taking hostiges in Iran or bombing our international embassies. But the US was never directly pissed on so we treated it as just casulties of war. Now Ossama decides to come over here and start something.

That is why a complete genocide must take place in those terrorist countries. Take them all out and scorch the land in such a way that is unlivable for a 100 years.

My capitalostic views might not be something that you want to hear but your people have crossed the line and we art fighting for a religion we are fighting for freedom. And freedom, something that the middle east doesn't understand.

Freedom

Agreed

Cibola, its people like you that really scare me. You think you know what you are talking about, but you do not.

You can't just visit the middle east for 6 months and claim do have done your research. The only part of the middle east I ever visited was Egypt for 2 weeks, and yet I know more then you do, because I studied the HISTORY of all these peoples. I know why and how this all started. I suggest you do the same before you post another message in this thread.

I agree with you that the USA has unfairly been put into an "international policeman" roll by the rest of the world, because it is the strongest. But the US has done patheticly little to "keep the piece" as you say, in that part of the world. You are correct that it is in the best interested of the US, and the world to keep that part of the word "stable". But for the US and other western powers, the interests are simple: Control of the oil.

I agree that governments that support terrorism should be targeted just as much as the terrorist groups themselves. And once the perpitrators of these attacks are discovered, I would have no problem with the USA and NATO declaring war on any country that harbors them. They are criminals, and what they have done is clearly an act of war.

But what you are suggesting, is that we attack all nations that have active terrorists groups. Many of the nations you listed consider these groups criminals, and wish to eradicate them too. But you would wipe the entire country out. If we do that, we might as well take out Ireland because of the IRA, or Canada because of the terrorist groups who want Quebec to become independent. While we're at it, we might as well wipe out the USA, because there is more then one terroist group working in this country.

Your comments are irrational, and wrong. I think its ironic that you claim the US is working hard trying to "rid the world of people with those methods of racial and cultural cleansing," yet you yourself, a US citizen, suggest cultural cleansing by stating "That is why a complete genocide must take place in those terrorist countries. Take them all out and scorch the land in such a way that is unlivable for a 100 years."

I do think the US will never support genocide in any form anywhere. It is just one of the ways the USA is noble and just, unlike those countries that harbor terrorists. I just hope that people like you never gain control of the government here. Its people like you, that put Hitler in contol in the 1930s in Germany. People who are ignorant, and too easily get swept up in the moment. Who don't think, just react.

Your views arn't capitalistic (another indication that you have no idea what you are talking about), they are racist, bitter, angry, and homocidal just like Bin Laden.

I feel sorry for you.

Yvan

Yvan although I agree that mass genocide is not a viable alternative, I urge you to back off. You said it yourself that you are not a native born American, and right now you're attempting to step on the dicks of every upset American by reffering to them as "ignorant."

You can't change what happened, you can't change what will happen, and at this point, you can't change what we think.

I heard the cries of tens of thousands of my countrymen yesterday. I heard them and I listened. Someone must pay.

Very well put Yvanhoe.

The people who did this are nuts with a highly radical interpretation of Islam. I consider them to be similar to Southern Baptist fundamentallists armed with bombs, assault rifles, and a grievous lack of respect for human life. However, they DO have the right to believe this. It's when they act out against other people when they cross the line. Again, I say that we should attack the countries that sponsor these people, take them down, and then build them back up, just like we did with the Japanese/Germans in WW2. Look how well that turned out; the Japanese and Germans are 2 of our allies now. Make no mistake, those who did this WILL be brought to justice. But it is no reason to make the largely innocent populations of these countries suffer; all that shall do is make more of them want to kill us. That is unjust and makes us just as bad as the WTC destroyers.

I heard recently that the attack may have been done in response to the cruise-missile attacks launched on Afghanistan during Bill Clinton's term in office. These attacks, the Taliban claims, killed NOTHING but unarmed civilians. If so, we must apologize for that (and possibly make recompense), but we must also demand that whoever attacked the WTC be turned over to us. It's time for the US to review it's response to terrorism, to make sure that we aren't really feeding the fire we are trying to stamp out.

Ah but what most of you are forgetting is that the attack on the United States that took place on 9/11/01 was totally unprovoked. It was a sneak attack, an attack of terrorism, much like Pearl Harbor except for this one was a pure act of cowardliness and jealousy.

Retaliation and terrorism are two totally different concepts. My heart aches for resolution.

Also for those who question the validity of Islamic interpretation of suicide, let it be known that in the Koran and Islamic beliefs, a person who dies in any "holy war" is given absolute and automatic admission into heaven.

Again let me reiterate that I do not believe mass genocide is the answer. I do not feel comfortable posting my idea on what needs to happen here, seeing as I am not a politician or expert of any type. And at some point I think everyone here needs to realize that neither are they.

God bless America.

I am ashamed to say I was born on Long Island, a place that has now shown it has people just as violent on innocent citizens as those who hijacked the planes.

NOBODY is justified in killing someone based on race or religion. And anyone who says they had the right because they were upset, can just as well justify any killing of innocent victims.

YES, I have family and friends in NYC, yes I have no confirmation yet that they are all ok. But that does not mean I would go kill an innocent person.

As we have heard, revenge is best served "cold". Meaning don;t get all hot-headed and start blaming anyone who looks "evil" to you.

I tend to believe in what was said by GW. We need to let it be known that in the future, if you support or harbor terrorists then you should be considered an enemy the same as a country who declared war on us. If that means we must wage war, economic or physical, on said country...then so be it.

The same goes with any state that sponsors terrorism. Islamic or not, I could care less. Those who sponsor this shit are going to die, plain and simple.

So would you include the USofA in this statement then?

Ah but what most of you are forgetting is that the attack on the United States that took place on 9/11/01 was tot (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/bombings/retaliation.html) ally (http://jinx.sistm.unsw.edu.au/~greenlft/1998/331/331p19.htm) unpro (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8744/hana.htm) voked (http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine.html)
(links added by me)... err actually that last link is pretty extreme and anti-Israeli. I'm presenting it more as an example of why the people who perpetrated this atrocity in NY might think they have been provoked."

Cibola Stratocaster, you are so right on. I hope to God that everything goes exactly as you and I expect it.

The way to handle attacks is to attack back, bigger than can be imagined, with such force that a fundamental lesson is learned.

I will not live in fear.

J

oh ps:

do. not. FUCK. with. freedom. You can eat shit if you disagree with this. Fucking liberal cows.

Straahd said this:

<font color=yellow>Kill em all, let Allah sort em out.</font color>

You need to be struck repeatedly upon your temple with a heavy blunt object.

Or perhaps maybe your white-trash dad did that to you when you were young. Anyhow, it needs to happen again.

Miblis

"You said it yourself that you are not a native born American, and right now you're attempting to step on the dicks of every upset American by reffering to them as "ignorant."

I've been living in the USA for 18 years, since I was 8. I have friends who I still haven't heard from that live in New York, 2 of them work in tower 2. My dad, a very successful business man, regularly flies to New York on business trips that take him to the World Trade Center. Infact, my dad was IN the world trade center, meeting with investors, just one week ago. He could have been the one missing right now. Both my parents just returned from a trip to europe 3 weeks ago, one connecting fight they took was from Washington DC, to San Francisco. A trans contentinental flight, with lots of fuel, just like the hijackers targeted.

Do you think I have suffered, worried or greaved any less because I am not an American?!?

Kylien, I am insulted by your not-so-subtle message to mind my own fucking business. Well, to hell with you, this IS my business. I love American and the freedom it represents.

If you had read my previous posts, you would know that this thread i started is aimed at people like Cibola and Straahd2, and others that are calling for mass genocide or say things like, "if your wearing a rag better look out," or "kill them all, let Alla sort them out."

Anger at a time like this is totally normal. And I realize that many of these people, are not thinking rationally. But the recent terrorist attacks are not a license to let their hidden racist ideas and fears spill out.

Someone said earlier in this thread that a moment of greaving like this is not the time to debate and point out "the facts." To a large extent I sincerely agree with that. But unfortunately it is during this irrational time, that public opinion is made. And it is becasue of this, that I, more then ever, must speak out and slap the sense back into some people with "the facts." If people like me do not speak out at times like this, we could see a repeat of WW2 where INNOCENT Japanese Americans were forced into American concentration camps because no one said "Stop! Think!"

Yvan

"'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' Where does that get us? A world full of blind and toothless people"
- Forgot who said that, but he made a good point.

Every major religion has their fanatics that twist the core of the belief into something it wasn't meant to be and causes pain and suffering all over.

Christians have the Spanish Inquisition as well as lunatics like that wacko in Wako for example.

If I catch any of my fellow "brothers and sisters" unjustly persecuting someone of middle-eastern decent, I will take action. Stereotyping and persecution of an entire race because of a few is INTOLERABLE and makes us just as bad as those we profess to hate.

Last I checked, Murder and suicide are unlawful to all 3 major religions.

That is all.

Ravenwulf Shadowslayer
55 Outrider

You can eat shit if you disagree with this. Fucking liberal cows.

It is every person's right to have an opinion and disagree with you. What makes your opinion better?

You are welcome to yopur opinion, but don't flame others for disagreeing, then label them.

It's nice to see how arrogant people can be.

Yeah, Vakra, everyone has a right to their opinion. That is the best aspect of the internet and why America is so great.

As for one opinion being "better" than another, I can conceive of many ways for this to be measured. Better, as in, how "real" it is to the individual originating it and better as in how intelligent the individual originating it is, come to mind. All I can say is my opinion is better than yours, times infinity, plus one. :)

do. not. FUCK. with. freedom. You can eat shit if you disagree with this. Fucking liberal cows.

This struck me as SO intelligent. Wow I have learned so much from this opinion.

/sarcasm off

Regardless of what your mind construes your opinion is no better regardless of who you are or how "real" you consider it to be.

Please go get you meds. You make a great arguement for Prozac.

Umm looks like the people responsible for starting this won
wether they get caught or not.

why u fighting with each other ? Have you not seen enough
scenseless hatred this week?

Dread.

I will not flame others for thier opinions. I only wish to state my own. I do believe the information that I am about to talk about is correct. If I am wrong, feel free to tell me so, but don't flame me for it.

I do believe that during the Regan (sp?) Adminstration, Pres Regan gave an Exectutive Order that states, basicly, that the US government will not sanction the assassination of a religious/political or such type leader. It is also within the rights of the current President to veto (or whatever the term) any and all Exectutive orders of a President before him.

I say that Pres Bush should veto that Order from Regan. Find the man/group responsible, and send ppl in to have him/them killed. I find no reason to kill innocents. That will only provoke the person/parties responsible into more action.

As for that lil 'celebration' of the Pakistanies, that was mainly a bunch of kids who have been taught from birth that the USA is evil, and I dont know what to do about them. I cant justify just killin the kids for what they have been brainwashed to believe, nor can I figure out what to do with them that would change thier minds. Yes, there were adults present..but who do you think taught the kids??

This is a horrible thing that has happened to my country. I have been awake almost 2 days watching this all develope, and I am shocked, hurt, angered, and afraid. But I cannot justify the killing of innocents. If we do something like that, then we will be no better than that jerk-off (Ill leave his name out of this..you all know who Im speaking of).

Peace everyone :)

/agree dread

I have seen enough hate and destruction this week to make me sick for a lifetime, I can't understand why you people want to sling insults around at each other right now. Yes I sling insults around quite a lot on this board, but have you seen me do it in this last few days? I think not.

This is ONE issue that should be debated in an intelligent matter, without insults and hatred towards each other. Anyone who wants to sling insults around does not have a reason to be in this thread, yes people are angry and want vengeance and that is very understandable, but if there was ever a time for us all to get along isn't it now?

Thanks for listening.

I agree with every word Dwarkarn wrote


Mitch

That right there is enough to bring hope to anyone...Mitch and Dwark aren't at each other's gullets. 8)

Just thought I'd add that and maybe get a smile or /grin on people's faces...heh

Vakra..you know if we have to suffer collateral losses in this war..I hope you are one of them. (sigh) ok fine maybe not but it would be nice.

Going against the grain and support of a nation that has been unjustly attacked is just not what you do at a time like this. You are building more hatred than you could ever imagine. Best thing for you to do, is if you are not in line with the other 280 million Americans is to be very quiet until its all over and go about your normal life. Otherwise you might find yourself the target of one of these "Rednecks on meds" that you seem to love to call some of us. Now is not the time for your idle, small minded, and unwelcomed attacks at our rights to defend ourselves and persecute our attackers.

Poppen Steelfist 54 Disciple and officer of SoD

That's right! Now, in a time of crisis, is exactly the right time to suddenly become sheep!

We must blindly do whatever we're told no matter what moral objections we might have to it!

... sounds like something a Nazi deathcamp guard would say

I agree with every word Dwarkarn wrote

Thank you Mitch, and for once I really mean it.

Mitch and Dwarkarn agreeing....the world is truly ending ;)

Mitch and Dwarkarn agreeing....the world is truly ending

LOL now that is funny Setis, I needed that laugh right at the moment. The last few days have shocked me to the core though, and I am not even an American. It's made me realise how stupid insulting people at random is. You can only expect constant well thought out debates from me now, (and I bet you never thought I had it in me) well maybe I will still chuck a few insults in now and then , after all you can't teach an old dog new tricks =)

Terrorist organizations have been recruiting children into their ranks since time immemorial. The ANC of South Africa were one of the best known outfits at doing this. Look up the term "necklacing" sometime. Palestinian kids celebrating the destruction of the WTC are exhibiting exactly what a valid tactic it is for these outfits to recruit them. It's doubtful any of these children understood the atrocity that had just been committed.

There's the cowardice; as a father of two little girls I can tell you they believe basically anything told them. Taking advantage of impressionable children to further the aims of a terrorist or political group is nothing short of sheer gutlessness.

The world must truly be ending, i'm agreeing with both mitch, dwarkarn and ulujain

That must be a first :)

Yvanhoe:

Although what we did with Japanese Americans during World War II was in no way any kind of a justified action, they were not placed in Concentration Camps. These were called Internment Camps. The people in these camps, although humiliated, went along with their lives. They were allowed to play games, leave for periods to visit friends and neighbors, and not ONE Japanese American was killed in these Internment Camps.

Concentration Camps refer to the types of camps used by Nazi Germany against Sematics, Gypsies, and other "non Aryan" races. People were tortured, used as slaves and, eventually, methodically killed.

Do you think I have suffered, worried or greaved any less because I am not an American?!?

Nope, I never reffered to your personal reaction. I was simply stating that all of your insults and name calling at angry people is doing nothing to solve it. You need to back off because at this point the American people are not going to listen to you no matter how loud you shout.

Someone needs to cry the cries of our lost... someone needs to bleed the blood of our lost. Those who have perished must be avenged, and not in the "liberal" sense of war trials and prison time. Lives must be taken. This cannot happen again. America will not allow it.

Malquanar:

Show me one group of people who live within the United States, are supported by the United States government, and resort to uncontrolled terrorism as a means of coercion. You don't have to look, you won't find one.

Vakra:

Your continued use of out of context and somewhat redundant historical and literal allusions are running you in circles. There have been some pretty blatent statements made on this board but, for the most part, you are completely misinterpreting most of the text you see.

God bless America

"they were not placed in Concentration Camps. These were called Internment Camps. The people in these camps, although humiliated, went along with their lives. They were allowed to play games, leave for periods to visit friends and neighbors, and not ONE Japanese American was killed in these Internment Camps.

Kylien, Your nietivity, is really a bit shocking. While your correct, that the american "internment camp" as you wish to call them (exactly the same as a concentration camp), were no where nearly as evil as those in Germany, what the US government did to its own citizens was none the less evil. It is interesting that you conveniently fergot to mention that these japanese americans had all their belongings taken away from them, and were often put in seperate cames from family members and loved ones... for 4 years. These people were basicly put in jail, for the crime of looking japanese.

I wonder if you would be exulting the virtues of "playing games" after being incarcerated for 4 years.

Anyway, the japenese internment camps are not the point of this thread or this message.

"I was simply stating that all of your insults and name calling at angry people is doing nothing to solve it.

You are right about this. I have an Armenian friend (who isnt even Arab or Muslim, but simply looks middle eastern) Who's store window was coverened in blood by some friendly fellow americans. Then I came on this board, and saw people saying stuff like "If your wearing a rag, better look out." I am sorry to have called anyone names, but these people saying and doing these things, are racist, and childish and ignorant. If you don't like my saying that, Tough.

As for backing off, I will not. Your original message telling me to back off clearly stated why I should back off:

"You said it yourself that you are not a native born American, and right now you're attempting to step on the dicks of every upset American by reffering to them as 'ignorant.'"

Its obvious that you don't like what I am saying, and dislike it even more because a non-american is saying it. I cherish the rights democracy grants me, and one of those rights, lets me speak out when I see wrongs being commited. Right now I see the horrible, horrible wrongs commited in New York and Washington being compounded by americans turning on other americans simply because they are of middle-eastern decent, and here you are telling me to shut up. I Will not. Two wrongs do not make a right, and my voice will ring out loud and clear, reguarless of your objections.

You say america will not allow another terrorist attack to take place. Well it is happening all over the country. Arab-Americans are being assulted, killed and TERRORIZED.

If you truely believe in America and freedom, you will condem the people doing this as vehemently as those who killed all those people in New York and Washington.

Yvan

First off I never meant to flame or fight with anyone. The meds comment, sorry but this person sounded like they needed some, sorry if you were offended. I apologize to anyone I hurt with my statements, it was not intended.

Vakra..you know if we have to suffer collateral losses in this war..I hope you are one of them. (sigh) ok fine maybe not but it would be nice.

May God forgive you for your wishing ill on another human being. No matter how much you disliked what I wrote, I never wished ill on another human being nor said it would be nice. You really have earned my respect here.

Going against the grain and support of a nation that has been unjustly attacked is just not what you do at a time like this.

BAH! Yes master!

Besides from what I have read what this one person says is not how the whole nation feels, try watching the news. That will tell you what the President feels, I saw his speech this morning and it directly opposed the comments made by Justicia.

You are building more hatred than you could ever imagine.

I assume you have lists of people who hate me for saying not to stereotype. Wow how a nations opinion can be changed by one event. Yes they have succeeded by turning Americans into people who will kill anything that looks like it was the enemy.

Best thing for you to do, is if you are not in line with the other 280 million Americans is to be very quiet until its all over and go about your normal life.

Thanks to these events my life will never be normal. Thanks to the hatred expressed at me on this board my life will never be normal. Seeing how the Americans plan to react to this, I fear besides my life never being normal, but also ending in the near future. Nor will I be quiet until it is over, but thanks for the suggestion.

Otherwise you might find yourself the target of one of these "Rednecks on meds" that you seem to love to call some of us.

I don't recall calling you a redneck on meds, please quote me if I did.
If someone wants to target me and kill me for my opinion, I guess there isn't much I can do other than remember how similar this is to what happened in the RL events that the movie "Missing" is based on.

Now is not the time for your idle, small minded, and unwelcomed attacks at our rights to defend ourselves and persecute our attackers.[\quote]

I attacked nobody, I believe you did not understand my posts.
Again thank you for calling my comments idle, I guess your opinions are better than mine. Excuse my ignorance of that.
Thank you for calling me small-minded, you must know me so well.
Next time I will wait for you to welcome my opinion before giving it, sorry for overstepping your boundary, I didn't realize those who don;t see everything your way are unwelcome on this board.

Time for me to leave this board as I have more productive things to do, which really was not hard to find.

I only wanted to add Justicia if you read this, I noticed you are from California, in the words of Maynard "Learn to swim".



Vakra:

Your continued use of out of context and somewhat redundant historical and literal allusions are running you in circles. There have been some pretty blatent statements made on this board but, for the most part, you are completely misinterpreting most of the text you